Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheUltimateNinja]

Based on the fact that Trunks had to suppress his ki blast so it wouldn't kill 18, and even suppressed it frightened her. Also, Piccolo is amazed by the kids' power. And they're both pretty close to the adults, Goten gives Gohan a good workout and Trunks is able to land a punch on Vegeta. Also, the Daizenshuu states that Goten's power is not the least bit inferior to Gohan's, so Post-RoSAT Goten = Gohan.

Also, that's exactly what I said. Piccolo only made them enter the RoSAT after Super Buu was formed, this means that Gotenks could beat Fat Buu with only regular training. Thus the gap between them isn't that large.

It would frightened her since up until that point she thought she was just fighting a powerful gifted human, but nothing too bad. It's the same shocked Goku and the other expressed when Spopovich suddenly shot an energy blast at Videl. Piccolo would be amazed that two brats not only reached Super Saiyan and they're not even teens, but they're also strong. Doesn't mean they can beat up the androids. Gohan was out of shape and Vegeta was handling Trunks with kid gloves. The moment Trunks touched him, he floored Trunks with a single hit. Also, once Gohan got somewhat back in shape, Goten couldn't beat him at all. Goten even complained about being no match for Gohan.

You're also forgetting that Piccolo thought Gotenks had a whole day to train to prepare for Buu. Super Buu coming threw everything off and they needed to used the Hyperbolic Time Chamber since Super Buu wouldn't even give them an hour to prepare. Piccolo didn't think of putting of the kids in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber until Super Buu was right at their door.

She knew who they were before they fired that blast, she was still shocked. She also says, "Yo-you’ve got to be kidding…That energy bullet had absolutely incredible speed and destructive power…Co-could it be that those squirts have outrageous power?…This is dangerous! I’ve got to settle this fight soon!"

And once again, the Daizenshuu says Goten = Gohan, and Gohan says if he's not careful the brats will surpass him soon. And Piccolo calls them the last hope for Earth even before fusion is mentioned, why would he do this if they're weaker than himself and 18?

[Arg]

Against Majin Vegeta (in the beginning), Buu was in difficulty. And with just one attack, he change the situation. After, he was as strong as SS3 Goku that is far far stronger than Majin Vegeta. Buu is like a children, he love to play with his opponents. So Majin Buu can easily increase his power whenever he want ! Basile will dominate Buu, until the last one show his True power.

Buu has limits. His power isn't bottomless. Also, Fat Buu is weaker than he was before since most of his power went into Evil and Kid Buu. He isn't as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

Indeed, Mr. Boo (fat Boo post-separation) does not necessarily exceed SSJ2 Majin vegeta anymore, not to mention SSJ3 Goku.
After he split into two it was clearly stated (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOA4yFC80hY @ 1:17) that most of his powers went into evil Boo.

As with Mr. Boo being picked ahead of Piccolo for the exhibition match; I do not believe that to be a sign of him being more powerful. They may both be around SSJ2 Majin Vegeta level at this point. Piccolo was never explicitly stated to reach, let alone exceed that level; and with Boo's reduction in power, they may now reside in
the same grey area. With Goku having a limited amount of time available to him, Boo just popping up was the more convenient choice; ofcourse he could
have used instant transmission, but there is the whole idea of having to convince Piccolo in a hurry, whereas all convincing Boo would need
was a bar of chocolate.

[HeroR]

She knew who they were before they fired that blast, she was still shocked. She also says, "Yo-you’ve got to be kidding…That energy bullet had absolutely incredible speed and destructive power…Co-could it be that those squirts have outrageous power?…This is dangerous! I’ve got to settle this fight soon!"

And once again, the Daizenshuu says Goten = Gohan, and Gohan says if he's not careful the brats will surpass him soon. And Piccolo calls them the last hope for Earth even before fusion is mentioned, why would he do this if they're weaker than himself and 18?

Yeah, but that doesn't mean they were stronger than her. It was more that she was shocked they were so strong and they were two of them. Any sane person would go, 'yeah, better end this quickly'.

I go by what is actually in the series. Gohan sparred with Goten and beat him with relative eased. Goten complained about this and Gohan said of course he would be stronger since he's older. So Goten isn't equal to Gohan. And Piccolo called them the 'last hope of Earth' in the context that they were the sons of Goku and Vegeta. They were also Saiyans, something that was repeatedly brought up.

[ssbgoku]

Indeed, Mr. Boo (fat Boo post-separation) does not necessarily exceed SSJ2 Majin vegeta anymore, not to mention SSJ3 Goku.
After he split into two it was clearly stated (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOA4yFC80hY @ 1:17) that most of his powers went into evil Boo.

As with Mr. Boo being picked ahead of Piccolo for the exhibition match; I do not believe that to be a sign of him being more powerful. They may both be around SSJ2 Majin Vegeta level at this point. Piccolo was never explicitly stated to reach, let alone exceed that level; and with Boo's reduction in power, they may now reside in
the same grey area. With Goku having a limited amount of time available to him, Boo just popping up was the more convenient choice; ofcourse he could
have used instant transmission, but there is the whole idea of having to convince Piccolo in a hurry, whereas all convincing Boo would need
was a bar of chocolate.

Well I am not sure, as with DBS power scaling seems to be all over place and nowhere sometimes. I mean we should also keep in mind there was retcon with buu's origin, which gives us great hint how buu may change or act.

Though in the manga Kaiōshin said that Bibbidi made him, the truth is that one called “Boo” was not actually created by Bididi, but has existed since time immemorial. He cycled between rampages and long hibernation. During numerous iterations of this cycle, he absorbed the evil elements of mankind, becoming steadily more violent. Bibbidi merely knew the means of calling Boo from out of his long slumber. Since the current Boo is a slightly different life-form due to the changes brought about when the evil Boo was expelled, it’s not known whether he’ll still go into long hibernation.

Q: What is Majin Buu's power level?

A; The frightening thing about Majin Buu is his unknown, unfathomable power. Whether it's actually not that much, or whether it's really stupendous, majin Buu himself probably doesn't know the answer.

We should focus on just bold parts. First There is mention about long hibernation which seems pretty similliar to Lord Beerus's sleeping time and then waking up to destroy something. Sleeping part would be connected with regaining power, also growing in power possibly, which is reason why Majin buu was sleeping in rof as he was pretty badly beaten up against beerus.

Also Akira's answer about Majin buu's power level, shows us that he can be as strong as plot demands, and only restriction for him is his lack of knowledge or means to bring out this power to surface. He could be easily beerus's level if needed... until Akira states he has limits.

Also Surely Base goku call Majin buu "crazy strong" while enraged show us , he could give hell of battle even to base goku.

[Noah]

As with Mr. Boo being picked ahead of Piccolo for the exhibition match; I do not believe that to be a sign of him being more powerful. They may both be around SSJ2 Majin Vegeta level at this point.

I don't know I think I have Mr. Boo strong as something like SSJ2.25, while not strong as a SSJ3 anymore, he should be still somewhat above a SSJ2.

[Bullza]

What do people think of the theory that was mentioned ages back about Goku only being God level as a Super Saiyan therefore in Base form he'd be around 1/50th of God level?

Base Goku's strenght has always been debatable but it is a fact that Super Saiyan Goku had surpassed the strenght of Super Saiyan God. That was both said and shown.

So it'd mean Base Goku was nowhere near God level but could still be enormously more powerful than he was before, enough so that he'd be stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

It'd also mean characters like Frost, Piccolo, Base Cabba and Trunks and arguably Magetta wouldn't be God level either.

[ChiefWamsutta]

What do people think of the theory that was mentioned ages back about Goku only being God level as a Super Saiyan therefore in Base form he'd be around 1/50th of God level?

Base Goku's strenght has always been debatable but it is a fact that Super Saiyan Goku had surpassed the strenght of Super Saiyan God. That was both said and shown.

So it'd mean Base Goku was nowhere near God level but could still be enormously more powerful than he was before, enough so that he'd be stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

It'd also mean characters like Frost, Piccolo, Base Cabba and Trunks and arguably Magetta wouldn't be God level either.

I whole-heartedly agree with this, and even want this to be the case. I could see the list as such:

SS2 Goku = SS2 Vegeta
Present Zamasu
...
SS Goku = SS Vegeta = SSGod Goku
...
Final Form Frost
Base Goku = Base Vegeta
Magetta
Base Cabba
SS3 Gotenks
Piccolo

I don't know where Future Trunks would be.

[Guesswhoo]

Greeting for all ! I’m new here and I wish we will all spend goot time discussing together.
NB: I’m not familiar with discussing in English, so I apologize if my grammar may be faulty sometimes .
I’m a DB fan and a pretty passionate one when it comes to explaining its universe. What pushes me to post here is that I looked at how everyone was complaining on DBS power scaling, so with a good chunk of the little brain power I have, I tried to make a theory that will, probably, make the power scaling consistent (and I hope this theory wasn’t already addressed).
This theory take basis on the “two base theory” that I found to be the most consistent theory so far, but the problem with the two base theory is that if Goku (and vegeta) really has two base form, and if Goku base form with God ki can spar with Beerus, it’s very difficult to not think that Goku can, at the very least, win against Beerus without Kaioken, considering the tremendous gap between SS1 to SS3 and Blue. This is where my point begin, when people think of the “two base theory” they tend to think that all of Goku Power Up (SS1-SS3) get enhancement from God ki that ultimately lead to the problem cited above, BUT what if it’s not the case?
To explain it, let’s remember the BOG movie, especially a Piccolo line, he said in the Dub:”He’s in trouble, he reverted to a mere SS”, “a MERE SS” , considering the fact that Piccolo (and every “Ki amateur”) could sense Goku’s ki at that time AND the fact that this “MERE SS” of Goku gave Beerus a 9001 times better fight than enraged Vegeta SS2 (whose power, that wasn’t even worth 10 percent of Beerus, made every jaw dropped at the tremendous ki), the least Piccolo could say is: “it’s over 9*10^THOUSAND!!!!!! ”, yet he said “a mere SS”. This means the ki he sensed was that of a regular SS. So if Goku was really in regular SS form, how could he spar with Beerus? If Goku used God ki enhancement, how could Piccolo sense him?
This brought me this conclusion: Goku has two Bases, one with god ki and one normal ki, BUT, Goku standard-Power up (SS1 to 3) only and ONLY apply to normal ki and SSB is the only PU that apply to God ki. So when Goku tap into God ki but is in SS form, he is as good as Goku base form with God ki. This makes sense because God ki and normal ki are really on different realm. God ki isn’t a normal ki PU. This can explain how Gohan could spar with Goku, how Goku was stronger that Freezer Fnf final form when his 1st form stomp Gohan SS, how Vegeta (while remaining SS2) stomp both Base black and Majin SS2 Balck in manga.
Thank you for reading and you can reply ( of course).

[Hugo Boss]

This theory take basis on the “two base theory” that I found to be the most consistent theory so far, but the problem with the two base theory is that if Goku (and vegeta) really has two base form, and if Goku base form with God ki can spar with Beerus, it’s very difficult to not think that Goku can, at the very least, win against Beerus without Kaioken, considering the tremendous gap between SS1 to SS3 and Blue. This is where my point begin, when people think of the “two base theory” they tend to think that all of Goku Power Up (SS1-SS3) get enhancement from God ki that ultimately lead to the problem cited above, BUT what if it’s not the case?
To explain it, let’s remember the BOG movie, especially a Piccolo line, he said in the Dub:”He’s in trouble, he reverted to a mere SS”, “a MERE SS” , considering the fact that Piccolo (and every “Ki amateur”) could sense Goku’s ki at that time AND the fact that this “MERE SS” of Goku gave Beerus a 9001 times better fight than enraged Vegeta SS2 (whose power, that wasn’t even worth 10 percent of Beerus, made every jaw dropped at the tremendous ki), the least Piccolo could say is: “it’s over 9*10^THOUSAND!!!!!! ”, yet he said “a mere SS”. This means the ki he sensed was that of a regular SS. So if Goku was really in regular SS form, how could he spar with Beerus? If Goku used God ki enhancement, how could Piccolo sense him?
This brought me this conclusion: Goku has two Bases, one with god ki and one normal ki, BUT, Goku standard-Power up (SS1 to 3) only and ONLY apply to normal ki and SSB is the only PU that apply to God ki. So when Goku tap into God ki but is in SS form, he is as good as Goku base form with God ki. This makes sense because God ki and normal ki are really on different realm. God ki isn’t a normal ki PU. This can explain how Gohan could spar with Goku, how Goku was stronger that Freezer Fnf final form when his 1st form stomp Gohan SS, how Vegeta (while remaining SS2) stomp both Base black and Majin SS2 Balck in manga.

First of all, welcome to Kanzenshuu forum.

So.. Your theory is very similar to Kaboom's from about a year ago. In a nutshell, it gives Goku the option to use God ki mixed with his mortal ki without anyone else noticing, right?

My problem is: it makes the ki stuff a bit confusing. Are we supposed to know when Goku is using God ki without being a Super Saiyan Blue? How? And when he is not using?

It sounds more complicated than it should be. Perhaps Piccolo said Goku was a mere Super Saiyan, because he looked like a regular Super Saiyan.

And when you talk about different realms you mean different powerlevels? Because Golden Freeza doesn't have God ki but he was stronger than Super Saiyan Blue at the time. Then, what about Base Goku having the power of Super Saiyan God when he fights Freeza? He deliberately didn't use that power against Great Saiyaman because..? If he didn't use the power of Super Saiyan God, why not using it, instead of going Super Saiyan?

These are the questions I have made myself and honestly I can't figure out a way for this theory to fulfill them. For now, I believe Dragon Ball Super screwed powerlevels from Champa Arc on. But I appreciate the effort. It's an interesting concept that could work if properly introduced in the show.

[Guesswhoo]

First of all, welcome to Kanzenshuu forum.

So.. Your theory is very similar to Kaboom's from about a year ago. In a nutshell, it gives Goku the option to use God ki mixed with his mortal ki without anyone else noticing, right?

My problem is: it makes the ki stuff a bit confusing. Are we supposed to know when Goku is using God ki without being a Super Saiyan Blue? How? And when he is not using?

It sounds more complicated than it should be. Perhaps Piccolo said Goku was a mere Super Saiyan, because he looked like a regular Super Saiyan.

And when you talk about different realms you mean different powerlevels? Because Golden Freeza doesn't have God ki but he was stronger than Super Saiyan Blue at the time. Then, what about Base Goku having the power of Super Saiyan God when he fights Freeza? He deliberately didn't use that power against Great Saiyaman because..? If he didn't use the power of Super Saiyan God, why not using it, instead of going Super Saiyan?

These are the questions I have made myself and honestly I can't figure out a way for this theory to fulfill them. For now, I believe Dragon Ball Super screwed powerlevels from Champa Arc on. But I appreciate the effort. It's an interesting concept that could work if properly introduced in the show.

Thank you for your reply !

First, I forgot to say that the God ki is not mixed with Normal Ki, because that would mean God ki is just a Ki Power up, God ki is a new element and normal ki law don't apply to it (explaining why normal ki user can't sense it) we can think of it as two metaphorical ki bar, Goku can tap into normal ki bar but can also tap into God Ki bar ( that stop him from tapping into normal ki bar). When i talk about different realm I talk about different powerlevel AND different constitution.
Base Goku tap into his God ki bar when fighting against Freezer, this explain why he didn't use SS1--3, but goes directly to SSB, because SSB is the ONLY Power up when using God ki.
As to why he didn't fight G.Sayaman using God ki is because wer're talking about Goku, training for him is not only surpassing body limit but, above all, having a good fight with someone.
Even if Piccolo only said that in BOG because of Goku's look, considering how Vegeta rage SS2 normal ki (that matched less than 10% of Beerus God ki) was worthy of remark, Goku's normal ki at that time should've been (theoritically) extremely big (if he didn't tap into God ki bar) but still no remark from Piccolo and the others ( something like : "what tremendous ki he has, and he's only in SS1").
Also, the two base his hinted when Trunks remark how Vegeta and Black fight was strange ( A remark that was directed at the power scaling itself, not the plot).

[Lord Beerus]

I just re-read chapter 20 and SSJ Goku Black actually gets two Zenkais. The first after he gets clobbered by SSJ2 Vegeta. And the second after he fightd SSJB Vegeta. Doesn't this make the gap between SSJB and SSJR fucking enormous in the manga? And from what we've seen in the manga leaks, Vegeta trains in the ROSAT. Which implies that the events of the anime, with him as a SSJB overwhelming SSJR Goku Black, is going to happen. If that is the case, Vegeta has arguably made the biggest gains from training in Dragon Ball history. I... don't know how feel about that prospect. Obviously, we'll have to wait until the chapter is fully released, but I pray that manga doesn't go that route and just has Vegeta getting clobbered by Black again, leading to Vegetto or Gogeta being born.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Also Akira's answer about Majin buu's power level, shows us that he can be as strong as plot demands...

There are characters that isn't true for?
(Yes, I'm making a power level list. I see no contradiction between acknowledging the arbitrary nature of power levels and seeing if I can't apply order to them. Admittedly, my process involves ignoring the occasional extremely inconvenient yet highly-relevant datum...)

-snip-

This "two-base" nonsense sounds a lot like "invisible kaio-kens" I've occasionally heard talk of. Which is ironic, considering that the first place I hard of them was Kaboom joking about the concept.

[Bullza]

I just re-read chapter 20 and SSJ Goku Black actually gets two Zenkais. The first after he gets clobbered by SSJ2 Vegeta. And the second after he fightd SSJB Vegeta. Doesn't this make the gap between SSJB and SSJR fucking enormous in the manga?

Well the Pre Zenkai SSJ2 Black appeared to get stomped by SSJ2 Vegeta but it's probably always going to be debatable if he let himself get stomped or not.

SSJ2 Black after his first zenkai appeared to be stronger than SSJB Vegeta though not by a ridiculous amount or anything.

After the second zenkai though and he turned Rose then yeah that was a stomping. I expect the manga will be the same as the anime and Vegeta will end up being stronger after training in the ROSAT.

So the difference between Rose Black and Blue Vegeta as of chapter 20 is likely just going to be less than however much you think Vegeta could possibly improve in just 6 months.

[IKevinX]

I just re-read chapter 20 and SSJ Goku Black actually gets two Zenkais. The first after he gets clobbered by SSJ2 Vegeta. And the second after he fightd SSJB Vegeta. Doesn't this make the gap between SSJB and SSJR fucking enormous in the manga?

Well the Pre Zenkai SSJ2 Black appeared to get stomped by SSJ2 Vegeta but it's probably always going to be debatable if he let himself get stomped or not.

SSJ2 Black after his first zenkai appeared to be stronger than SSJB Vegeta though not by a ridiculous amount or anything.

After the second zenkai though and he turned Rose then yeah that was a stomping. I expect the manga will be the same as the anime and Vegeta will end up being stronger after training in the ROSAT.

So the difference between Rose Black and Blue Vegeta as of chapter 20 is likely just going to be less than however much you think Vegeta could possibly improve in just 6 months.

Pre Zenkai SSJ Black VS SSJ2 Vegeta was stated to be stronger than SSJ2 Trunks just as Base Black already was. Not mattering if he was letting himself get stomped or not.
That gives us an gigantic advantage of SSJ2 Goku and SSJ2 Vegeta over SSJ2 Trunks to much relief since that SSj2 = SSJ3 ordeal. As I will always consider Goku and Vegeta equals. (Well until Vegeta returns from the HTC)
When Vegeta went Blue, Black did a powerup, scream and started using his energy sword. So he was in fact holding back something beforehand.

After his first zenkai he finally managed to surpass the SSJ God tier, like Goku did against Beerus. And the second zenkai got him SS Rosé

[Bullza]

See now this is interesting.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

First of all it confirms that Gohan will have his Ultimate form. When he somehow got that power back, I have no idea.

But it says the "strong Gohan of old which surely means how Gohan used to be back in the Buu saga. Someone mentioned that because Gohan is older and he'd have more potential that he'd be stronger and what not but no this is specifically referring to a previous power he had.

That of course means that throughout Super he was weaker than he was as Ultimate Gohan in the Buu saga. Piccolo wouldn't even be Ultimate tier never mind God tier.

So what does that say about Goku? Those who saw that recent episode as Goku and Gohan being equals must show that Super Saiyan Goku would also be weaker than Ultimate Gohan. If that still holds true then there was definitely a retcon.

Additionally it states outright that Gohan had surpassed his father. So all of that about SSJ3 Goku being stronger or Kid Buu being the strongest Buu well this says otherwise.

[HeroR]

See now this is interesting.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

First of all it confirms that Gohan will have his Ultimate form. When he somehow got that power back, I have no idea.

But it says the "strong Gohan of old which surely means how Gohan used to be back in the Buu saga. Someone mentioned that because Gohan is older and he'd have more potential that he'd be stronger and what not but no this is specifically referring to a previous power he had.

That of course means that throughout Super he was weaker than he was as Ultimate Gohan in the Buu saga. Piccolo wouldn't even be Ultimate tier never mind God tier.

So what does that say about Goku? Those who saw that recent episode as Goku and Gohan being equals must show that Super Saiyan Goku would also be weaker than Ultimate Gohan. If that still holds true then there was definitely a retcon.

Additionally it states outright that Gohan had surpassed his father. So all of that about SSJ3 Goku being stronger or Kid Buu being the strongest Buu well this says otherwise.

If Gohan was only as strong as his Buu Saga self, he wouldn't get far in the tournament since the levels of the Buu Saga aren't impressive by current standards. The line reads more like, 'Gohan regains his full former glory', not necessary that he's back to the exact same level that he was during the Buu Saga.

And Zamasu wouldn't be impressive if he was only as strong as the strongest Supreme Kai in U7.

[LowRyder2005]

Well, I wager this should finally put most of those fan-made assertions (and yet usually purported to be stated facts) about Gohan having his Ultimate form before the tournament, Tagoma being extremely strong for Z-standards, or stuff like Gohan stacking Super Saiyan and Ultimate. Can't say I'm unhappy about that.

This "two-base" nonsense sounds a lot like "invisible kaio-kens" I've occasionally heard talk of. Which is ironic, considering that the first place I hard of them was Kaboom joking about the concept.

Personally, I'd say that the two-base "nonsense" is a far more sensible approach than the contrived mess made by TOEI as far as power-scaling is concerned. Even if one happened to back a more linear approach (like Goku having one super-powerful base, with an ever stronger Super Saiyan form), it wouldn't - unfortunately - avoid another quota of headscratchers for the series.

[Doctor.]

Oh hey, further confirmation that ultimate Gohan is stronger than Boo arc SS3 Goku. That's nice.

[IKevinX]

Well, I wager this should finally put most of those fan-made assertions (and yet usually purported to be stated facts) about Gohan having his Ultimate form before the tournament, Tagoma being extremely strong for Z-standards, or stuff like Gohan stacking Super Saiyan and Ultimate. Can't say I'm unhappy about that.

This "two-base" nonsense sounds a lot like "invisible kaio-kens" I've occasionally heard talk of. Which is ironic, considering that the first place I hard of them was Kaboom joking about the concept.

Personally, I'd say that the two-base "nonsense" is a far more sensible approach than the contrived mess made by TOEI as far as power-scaling is concerned. Even if one happened to back a more linear approach (like Goku having one super-powerful base, with an ever stronger Super Saiyan form), it wouldn't - unfortunately - avoid another quota of headscratchers for the series.

Even if it were linear, the fanbase could still not follow.

There's a reason the manga kept clear of Goku absorbing SSJ God's power. It was to avoid this confusion. And since it hasn't reappeared in the mangá, I venture that Toriyama wanted to retcon that power absorption. But just couldn't negate BOG and ROF after their respective movies.

[Bullza]

If Gohan was only as strong as his Buu Saga self, he wouldn't get far in the tournament since the levels of the Buu Saga aren't impressive by current standards.

Well whose to say he will get far in the Tournament? The levels aren't impressive by current Universe 7 standards but we have no idea how they compare to other universes.

Ultimate Gohan was enormously more powerful than Frieza on Namek and he was renowned as being the strongest in the universe himself. Plenty of these upcoming fighters could be below that yet.

By that logic Krillin, Tien, Roshi, Buu and the Androids should all be stronger than Ultimate Gohan too or they won't get far in the Tournament.

And Zamasu wouldn't be impressive if he was only as strong as the strongest Supreme Kai in U7.

Why? Maybe the strongest Supreme Kai in Universe 7 was also impressive. All Goku said about him was that Shin wouldn't stand a chance against him and he was a weakling.