Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

The U6 arc actually implies that 10% SSB Vegeta is much stronger than Mutated SS2 Vegeta, since Vegeta chose to use SSB for a second time & get x10 weaker instead of going MSS2. Again, it was never stated that you have to be equal or weaker than Hit in order for his Tokitobashi to work properly, that was a mistranslation from MangaStream. In the Viz translation, Whis says that the Tokitobashi works properly against those who are weaker or close to Hit, and by close he meant close enough for his Tokitobashi to work. Goku had to use SSG in order to surpass Hit to the point that his Tokitobashi wouldn't work, he was already stronger than Hit in his regular SS form, and SS2 & SS3 wouldn't make him strong enough since 10% SSB Vegeta, who was much stronger than SS3 Goku, couldn't surpass the Tokitobashi. Also, the only point that Goku was stated to have surpassed 10% SSB Vegeta was when he used SSG. So, SSB being only x10 SS is a misconception. The manga also doesn't have anything that contradicts what we saw in the movies; that SSG Goku was much stronger than Boo arc Vegetto was at full power, and that SSB is stronger than SSG, yet less than x2 stronger..

Then this means Vegeta is about to become hundreds of times stronger.

We don't know exactly how Black's power works (like, why couldn't Goku get powerful like Black did if they have the same body), nor how SSR works yet. We also don't know what will happen between SSB Vegeta & SSR Black yet. Given what we know so far, personally I believe that Goku & Vegeta became Saiyans beyond God like in the movies (why do they only use SSB in the manga before RoSaT instead of SS?) & eliminated the state by mastering the power of SSG and learning how to transform at will inside the RoSaT, and because Black is a god inside a mortal's body, he became able to slowly draw out the SSG power through training & near-death power-ups, so by the time he was rivaling SSB Vegeta in his SS form, he had become a Saiyan beyond God which is where he hit the limit & figured he can now go SSB (turns out he turned SSR), and SSR is a less-than-x2 multiplier for him, like SSB was a less-than-x2 multiplier for SbG Goku & Vegeta.

Don't you think a x2 multiplier is a bit small since it's implied Freeza's Golden form is a big power up? Gohan pretty much said he doesn't think he will ever reach that level once he saw the transformation.

Black being a SbG just makes too much sense, especially in the anime.

[Bullza]

Does anyone think that the multiplier between Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan Rage could be the same or similar to the multiplier between Super Saiyan and Ultra Super Saiyan?

If so would that give an idea what the Super Saiyan Blue multiplier was?

[ssbgoku]

Well, yeah we saw how strong Mutated or rather enraged to limits SS2 Vegeta was in bog, but there was only compirison him to goku, who to suprass Buu arc Ultimate gohan had to get 800 times stronger, considering that common known fact is that buu arc ss3 goku ~ post rosat base gotenks.

There is nothing saying that SS3 Goku had surpassed U. Gohan in BoG, and SS3 Goku is not as strong as base Gotenks. Gotenks only thought that he had surpassed his previous SS self in his base form because he is an arrogant idiot, and it turned out to be false, and Piccolo only assumed this was the case because he saw that Gotenks was stronger than before & took Gotenks' word for it. If that was the case, SS Goten & Trunks would have been stronger than SS3 Goku on their own. And let's not forget that the whole thing was just a gag.

Ok, you may have a right here but even then goku was afraid of fighting super buu while piccolo was impressed by power up of base gotenks post rosat and after he turned ss piccolo saw hope of wining.

So in best case ss3 goku is 2 times weaker then post rosat ss gotenks,wich make him 16 times weaker then ss3 gotenks and 24 times weaker then ultimate gohan buu arc.

I am talking only buu arc ss3 goku.

We are talking about anime continuity and please clarify me if I get it wrong, but Was there any episode where vegeta turned ss2 after bog, I am sure not.

I was using the manga as reference because it's the only thing that gives us a better idea (Vegeta uses MSS2 against Black in the manga), and I don't think there isn't anything suggesting that Mutated SS2 Vegeta's power was different between the movie, the anime, and/or the manga, but if you want to ignore the manga, it's perfectly fine since they are not in the same continuity.

Anyway that pretty ok for me too to use manga, but to me it looked temporary power up which unblock new set power lecel if character train.

Also it isn't set power level, but rather multiplier of base form which according to goku already suprassed rage ss2 vegeta while training with whis

At least in the manga, it is shown that the multiplier of SS2 can increase. Future Trunks brought his SS2 form at SS3 level through training in the manga, and Vegeta made it over x200 when he got angry against Beerus.

How do you know it was x200 even ? Isnt it overkill ? Anyway it is still too little to suprass buu arc ultimate gohan who is at least 240 times stronger then buu arc majin vegeta.

Yes there is indication of them getting weaker see introduction of my post.

Maybe Gohan got weaker (though we are not told so), but I really doubt Goten & Trunks got weaker after 4 years when back in Boo arc, Gohan didn't train for 7 years and the only thing he lost was his rage boost ability.

Well I doubt narrator would bother talking about peace caused everyone to feel safe and hinting slacking off while only vegeta and goku were shown training hard.

Edit: sorry I edited it on my phone but I couldnt quote you properly so please read whole quote finding my response

[Desassina]

Does anyone think that the multiplier between Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan Rage could be the same or similar to the multiplier between Super Saiyan and Ultra Super Saiyan?

If so would that give an idea what the Super Saiyan Blue multiplier was?

I always thought that, in order to make things simpler, we should consider SSJ2 and SSJB as equals: one with a restless feeling, and the other with a calm state of mind, both of them on top of SSJ. They let Goku use straining power ups, which are SSJ3 and Kaioken, while Trunks got his own form like Gohan had his potential unleashed. So, if you think that SSJ2 was a powered up SSJ, then SSJB was the same through Ki control. Here's an example:

SSJ1 - Power: 50 | Strength: 10 | Agility: 10 | Energy: 2 (multiply strength by agility and divide by the energy spent for power)
SSJ2 - Power: 100 | Strength: 20 | Agility: 20 | Energy: 4 (multiply each and every stat by two that their relationship remains)
SSJB - Power: 100 | Strength: 10 | Agility: 10 | Energy: 1 (multiply the same stats from SSJ1 and divide by less energy spent)

[ekrolo2]

So here's a "perfected" visual representation of how Hit's powers apparently work in the manga based on DBZGTKOSDH's interpretation on Whis' statement on how his power works:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[TheUltimateNinja]

So here's a "perfected" visual representation of how Hit's powers apparently work in the manga based on DBZGTKOSDH's interpretation on Whis' statement on how his power works:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

People over 10x stronger than Hit are "near" him?

[ekrolo2]

So here's a "perfected" visual representation of how Hit's powers apparently work in the manga based on DBZGTKOSDH's interpretation on Whis' statement on how his power works:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

People over 10x stronger than Hit are "near" him?

I never said it was perfect but given the fact Hit can't improve Time Skip and that he's weaker than in the anime that his Time Skip should work for people over his strength level to a point. I also cut Vegeta's power to a tenth because I don't remember if Viz said it was at 10% or lower than that so meh.

[TheUltimateNinja]

So here's a "perfected" visual representation of how Hit's powers apparently work in the manga based on DBZGTKOSDH's interpretation on Whis' statement on how his power works:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

People over 10x stronger than Hit are "near" him?

I never said it was perfect but given the fact Hit can't improve Time Skip and that he's weaker than in the anime that his Time Skip should work for people over his strength level to a point. I also cut Vegeta's power to a tenth because I don't remember if Viz said it was at 10% or lower than that so meh.

This is how his timeskip seems to work: The further above him you are, the shorter it is, ie: There's no threshold where it suddenly stops working, it just becomes weaker and weaker the stronger the target is. This is why he was still able to stop SSGod Goku, it was just much shorter than usual.

Now, when he powered up to max he was expecting to stop SSGod Goku for a full 0.1s, yet SSBlue Goku broke it with the same ease as SSGod Goku, this suggests that the largest gap Hit's timeskip can fully compensate for is smaller than the gap between SSGod and SSBlue.

[ekrolo2]

People over 10x stronger than Hit are "near" him?

I never said it was perfect but given the fact Hit can't improve Time Skip and that he's weaker than in the anime that his Time Skip should work for people over his strength level to a point. I also cut Vegeta's power to a tenth because I don't remember if Viz said it was at 10% or lower than that so meh.

This is how his timeskip seems to work: The further above him you are, the shorter it is, ie: There's no threshold where it suddenly stops working, it just becomes weaker and weaker the stronger the target is. This is why he was still able to stop SSGod Goku, it was just much shorter than usual.

Now, when he powered up to max he was expecting to stop SSGod Goku for a full 0.1s, yet SSBlue Goku broke it with the same ease as SSGod Goku, this suggests that the largest gap Hit's timeskip can fully compensate for is smaller than the gap between SSGod and SSBlue.

Doesn't it completely stop to work for him against SSGod Goku? He even says he can't stop Goku's basic ki blast.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I never said it was perfect but given the fact Hit can't improve Time Skip and that he's weaker than in the anime that his Time Skip should work for people over his strength level to a point. I also cut Vegeta's power to a tenth because I don't remember if Viz said it was at 10% or lower than that so meh.

This is how his timeskip seems to work: The further above him you are, the shorter it is, ie: There's no threshold where it suddenly stops working, it just becomes weaker and weaker the stronger the target is. This is why he was still able to stop SSGod Goku, it was just much shorter than usual.

Now, when he powered up to max he was expecting to stop SSGod Goku for a full 0.1s, yet SSBlue Goku broke it with the same ease as SSGod Goku, this suggests that the largest gap Hit's timeskip can fully compensate for is smaller than the gap between SSGod and SSBlue.

Doesn't it completely stop to work for him against SSGod Goku? He even says he can't stop Goku's basic ki blast.

It gets shorter and shorter as Goku reveals more of his power. The first time he's able to stop Goku long enough for him to prepare his attack, but less than 0.1s. The second time it's even shorter, by the time Goku fires that ki blast it's too short for him to dodge.

[buutenks]

You all are still trying to make sense of this?

[TheUltimateNinja]

You all are still trying to make sense of this?

It's a futile effort, but I like my fiction to have some level of logic.

[Bullza]

The Viz manga had Whis saying that Vegeta couldn't even use 10% of his power. People always say 10% but it was less than 10%.

Then Beerus says Goku's God form has surpassed Vegeta's Blue form from earlier and Whis says yes. Whis also says Super Saiyan God far surpassed Hit too.

Super Saiyan God Goku >> Suppressed Hit > Heavily depleted Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta and Super Saiyan Goku.

[TheUltimateNinja]

The Viz manga had Whis saying that Vegeta couldn't even use 10% of his power. People always say 10% but it was less than 10%.

Then Beerus says Goku's God form has surpassed Vegeta's Blue form from earlier and Whis says yes. Whis also says Super Saiyan God far surpassed Hit too.

Super Saiyan God Goku >> Suppressed Hit > Heavily depleted Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta and Super Saiyan Goku.

SSJ Goku > Suppressed Hit, Beerus says his power is greater.

[Bullza]

The Viz manga had Whis saying that Vegeta couldn't even use 10% of his power. People always say 10% but it was less than 10%.

Then Beerus says Goku's God form has surpassed Vegeta's Blue form from earlier and Whis says yes. Whis also says Super Saiyan God far surpassed Hit too.

Super Saiyan God Goku >> Suppressed Hit > Heavily depleted Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta and Super Saiyan Goku.

SSJ Goku > Suppressed Hit, Beerus says his power is greater.

Well actually that was something that was said in the scanlated release and what we all saw first.

Buying the Viz translation (and seeing this for the first time), Beerus actually says "Dammit Goku's power should be completely different from this!"

So the scanlated line seemed to be way off. Of course later on Whis also says that Hits abilities only work on those near or below Hits power and the time skip worked on Super Saiyan Goku so he had to be below.

There's nothing actually stopping the >10% Blue Vegeta from being stronger than Super Saiyan Goku. Intact I'd say he was because SSJ Goku was below Hit. Whis said SSJG Goku was far above Hit and when Beerus asks if he's stronger than Blue Vegeta was earlier Whis says "Yes, possibly" so if he had to say possibly then he can't be that much weaker than God.

[TheUltimateNinja]

The Viz manga had Whis saying that Vegeta couldn't even use 10% of his power. People always say 10% but it was less than 10%.

Then Beerus says Goku's God form has surpassed Vegeta's Blue form from earlier and Whis says yes. Whis also says Super Saiyan God far surpassed Hit too.

Super Saiyan God Goku >> Suppressed Hit > Heavily depleted Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta and Super Saiyan Goku.

SSJ Goku > Suppressed Hit, Beerus says his power is greater.

Well actually that was something that was said in the scanlated release and what we all saw first.

Buying the Viz translation (and seeing this for the first time), Beerus actually says "Dammit Goku's power should be completely different from this!"

So the scanlated line seemed to be way off. Of course later on Whis also says that Hits abilities only work on those near or below Hits power and the time skip worked on Super Saiyan Goku so he had to be below.

There's nothing actually stopping the >10% Blue Vegeta from being stronger than Super Saiyan Goku. Intact I'd say he was because SSJ Goku was below Hit. Whis said SSJG Goku was far above Hit and when Beerus asks if he's stronger than Blue Vegeta was earlier Whis says "Yes, possibly" so if he had to say possibly then he can't be that much weaker than God.

Wait, what? Viz's own online translations are completely different from those.

[Bullza]

Oh wait I slightly misread it. Beerus says

"Dammit, Goku's power is supposed to be stronger than his!"

Not "This" but "His". The other lines from Whis were from Viz though.

https://www.viz.com/shonenjump/chapters ... 986?read=1

But yeah he fights Hit using Super Saiyan and the Time Skip works on him. Goku turns into a Super Saiyan God and it stops working. Whis says

"Goku's power has become far superior to that of Hits. That is what's happening here. Hits skills are only effective against opponents who are near or below his level."

Soon after

Beerus - "So you're saying, Goku's God form surpasses that of Vegeta's Blue form earlier. Just as it's already surpassed Hit? Is that it"

Whis - "Yes, possibly."

So with the timeskip being effective against Super Saiyan Goku it means he must be weaker so I'm not sure what Beerus meant by saying that his power should be stronger than his unless he was taking Super Saiyan Blue into account?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Oh wait I slightly misread it. Beerus says

"Dammit, Goku's power is supposed to be stronger than his!"

Not "This" but "His". The other lines from Whis were from Viz though.

https://www.viz.com/shonenjump/chapters ... 986?read=1

But yeah he fights Hit using Super Saiyan and the Time Skip works on him. Goku turns into a Super Saiyan God and it stops working. Whis says

"Goku's power has become far superior to that of Hits. That is what's happening here. Hits skills are only effective against opponents who are near or below his level."

Soon after

Beerus - "So you're saying, Goku's God form surpasses that of Vegeta's Blue form earlier. Just as it's already surpassed Hit? Is that it"

Whis - "Yes, possibly."

So with the timeskip being effective against Super Saiyan Goku it means he must be weaker so I'm not sure what Beerus meant by saying that his power should be stronger than his unless he was taking Super Saiyan Blue into account?

Beerus doesn't seem to be accounting for any further transformations. Judging by him calling timeskip cheating immediately after, he means that Goku would beat Hit in a match of power alone and Hit is only able to put up a fight due to the timeskip.

[RandomGuy96]

So, in raw power, Cell > Hit? Manga SS Goku doesn't seem noticeably stronger than his Buu arc counterpart. Plus in raw power wouldn't that actually make Hit weaker than Magetta, who seemed superior to SS Vegeta? That doesn't seem right.

[Hugo Boss]

So, in raw power, Cell > Hit? Manga SS Goku doesn't seem noticeably stronger than his Buu arc counterpart. Plus in raw power wouldn't that actually make Hit weaker than Magetta, who seemed superior to SS Vegeta? That doesn't seem right.

I made myself that same question. Perhaps it's alright since this isn't Hit's true power after all.