Things that grind your gears

[Nejishiki]

He tried the cyborg approach & it didn't work out as intended. He tried absorption models & found them perfect for his purposes. I referenced No. 19 as it's the type of Artificial Human model he fancied enough to convert himself as, before age claimed him. I won't omit context as I prefer complete answers. A spread of Gero's works & how he evolved his Artificial Human designs exists so I find the "no progression" claim uninformed. The spread elaborates that Gero ceased placing importance in pure power alone after No. 17 & No. 18 failed him. It was explained. I'm not debating anything, really. I'm recounting information from the story with my answers. The heart of this matter isn't speculative from my end. If you're arguing in favor of what you'd do in his place, recall that you're thinking through your perspective, not Gero's, the mind that should be dissected.

Freeza's legacy continued to exist, remembered decades after his death. The titles you're referencing weren't forgotten in-universe due to events on Earth, a backwater planet. The Kaioshin & Hakaishin continue to regard Freeza's influence. The power of Super Saiyan, by comparison, is hardly recalled by anyone in the universe. Those are excellent odds, I'd say. Diminished accounts are born out-of-universe, not in-universe. The Artificial Human experiments took extensive years off Gero's life & were restlessly researched. His obsession with avenging Red Ribbon isn't portrayed like Tony Stark's imprisonment so it's curious you insist on that reference. They're not really applicable nor do they share scope. I never mentioned Cell anyway so I'm starting to suspect you aren't carefully reading me (or I'm wrong. I'm confused by half of the subjects you brought up).

EDIT: Ah, I think I understand one part of that post. I was specifically saying that Freeza's influence was so great that it benefited Gero. It's true that Cell is a part of that process but he wasn't particularly on my mind. The purpose of the parenthetical was to support Freeza's amazing legacy. Gero owes Freeza's invasion for his future inspirations (No. 17-20 & Cell). But once more, Cell isn't the main takeaway in the first place.

[Gog]

He tried the cyborg approach & it didn't work out as intended.
He tried absorption models & found them perfect for his purposes. I referenced No. 19 as it's the type of Artificial Human model he fancied enough to convert himself as, before age claimed him. I'm not going to omit context as I prefer complete answers. A spread of Gero's works & how he evolved his Artificial Human designs exists so I find the "no progression" claim uninformed. The spread elaborates that Gero ceased placing importance in power exclusively after No. 17 & No. 18 failed him. It was explained. I'm not debating anything, really. I'm recounting information from the story with my answers. The heart of this matter isn't speculative from my end. If you're arguing in favor of what you'd do in his place, recall that you're thinking through your perspective, not Gero's, the mind that should be dissected.

He never once tried it out on himself. Except for the fact that it is never stated that he could ever combine the two models. It was never stated that he could never boost the model to the level of the androids. There is literally nothing stating that he cannot do it, and it's just so stupid considering his personality, and the fact that he left nothing to chance in his plans. I never meant he made no progression, the man made tons of impressive progress. When he used that model on 18, and 17. They failed him because they didn't follow his orders, because they were Lapis, and Lazuli. That's it. Your not recounting information from the story, if you forget some facts about why they were considered failures.

Except we absolutely get to see his personality, and he's a ruthless and clever man, who will leave nothing to chance. We've already seen his personality and it does not line up with what we've seen.

Freeza's legacy continued to exist, remembered decades after his death. The titles you're referencing weren't forgotten in-universe due to events on Earth, a backwater planet. The Kaioshin & Hakaishin continue to regard Freeza's influence. The power of Super Saiyan, by comparison, is hardly recalled by anyone in the universe. Those are excellent odds, I'd say. Diminished accounts are born out-of-universe, not in-universe. The Artificial Human experiments took extensive years off Gero's life & were restlessly researched. His obsession with avenging Red Ribbon isn't portrayed like Tony Stark's imprisonment so it's curious you insist on that reference. They're not really applicable nor do they share scope. I never mentioned Cell anyway so I'm starting to suspect you aren't carefully reading me (or I'm wrong. I'm confused by half of the subjects you brought up).

I'm not interested in his legacy. I'm interested in what his character represents, and who he was. And how the androids managed to shit all over it. Now let me state this plainly and clearly. The reason why I hate the androids 18, and 17 is because they were created by a man, a genius no doubt, an obsessive genius, who had a long time on his hands. But still a man at the end of the day. And the fact that he was capable of creating beings greater than Freeza, the emperor of the universe. Just makes him absolutely pale in comparison, because if all it takes to surpass the emperor of the universe is time and genius.

Then Freeza ends up coming off as just unbelievably lucky, that some other genius didn't create a set of androids that ends his empire, and kills him.

Now a few things, I'm baffled on how you would assume that I made a Tony Stark reference? I haven't even watched the movie, so I don't know how you would consider that. Also you stated that Freeza help Gero in his efforts. Cell is the one who was stated that Gero used Freeza to emperor.

I've been reading all of your arguments and besides your arguments falling flat on their face under some observations, and on account of reading the Android Arc, and Cell Arc. You just don't make much sense in them as well, I'll also have to ask you.

Have you been reading my arguments?

[Nejishiki]

Okay. I'm finding this strange. I suppose I'll bulletpoint the rest since I don't know why you're writing certain stances.

• "He never once tried it out on himself. Except for the fact that it is never stated that he could ever combine the two models. It was never stated that he could never boost the model to the level of the androids. There is literally nothing stating that he cannot do it, and it's just so stupid considering his personality, and the fact that he left nothing to chance in his plans."
  All I ever did was explain the in-universe, in-the-story explanation for his motives. I'm not sure where all the "it was never stated" stuff came from. I kept it non-speculative.
• "When he used that model on 18, and 17. They failed him because they didn't follow his orders, because they were Lapis, and Lazuli. That's it. Your not recounting information from the story, if you forget some facts about why they were considered failures."
  Gero concluded he made them too powerful & brainwashing was ineffective. This is why he thinks of them as failures. I didn't make that up nor do I have a reason to.
• "I'm not interested in his legacy. I'm interested in what his character represents, and who he was."
  That's what I addressed. In-universe, in reality, everywhere: Freeza's influence holds pretty strongly. I rather not pick at the minutia of what term I used. It related to your subject all the same.
• "I'm baffled on how you would assume that I made a Tony Stark reference? I haven't even watched the movie, so I don't know how you would consider that."
  You used an Iron Man reference. Iron Man is Tony Stark.

Either way, you said Dragon Ball didn't address certain elements. I'm merely pointing out that it did.

[Gog]

Okay. I'm finding this strange. I suppose I'll bulletpoint the rest since I don't know why you're writing certain stances.

That's a smart thing to do. The debate before hand was simply getting too convoluted, and massive for both of us to keep up with.

Gero concluded he made too powerful & brainwashing was ineffective. This is why he thinks of them as failures. I didn't make that up nor do I have a reason to.

But here's the thing. Gero ended up turning himself into an android in the end, and here is were the problem lies. Now I would understand if 19 was the energy adsorbing model. But Gero not using it or simply not combining it with the energy adsorbing model for himself is simply asinine. And from what we know of him, incredibly out of character. The reason why I was getting so aggravated at the start, was because I misunderstood you and thought that you believed that the model was ineffective. Sorry for misunderstanding you on that part

Hell, them being so powerful doesn't make much sense, especially considering that Gero never applied that power to himself, and we never see any reason for him to not apply that power to himself. It just all falls apart.

That's what I addressed. In-universe, in reality, everywhere: Freeza's influence holds pretty strongly. I rather not pick at the minutia of what term I used. It related to your subject all the same.

Okay since I haven't phrased correctly here, I'll try to phrase myself properly. I'm not mad at the idea of Freeza being surpassed, I just hate the manner in which he was surpassed by the main androids. A man, a genius, and an obsessional genius, a genius no doubt who had been working on the androids for years, and years. Managed to create beings surpassing Freeza. Besides diminishing Freeza by making it seem that he's just supremely lucky that no one else, who's a genius, and obsessional, with a lot of time on their hands. Created beings stronger than him.

[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtntTvuv8Aw]You used an Iron Man reference. Iron Man is Tony Starks.

Either way, you said Dragon Ball didn't address certain elements. I'm merely pointing out that it did. [/quote]

I understand that Tony Stark is Iron man.

It really didn't address these certain elements.

[Nejishiki]

No, I think I was pretty straightforward. I hardly consider my two paragraphs of condensed material convoluted but I digress. Gero had a preference for absorption because he considered No. 19 a perfect design. It stands to reason he would convert himself into what he finds a successful model. The reactor approach with No. 16-18, machine & cyborg-types, were deemed failures in his mind. The lack of interest in the old methods were apparent. There's precedence that he consistently discarded failed projects before No. 19. Gero felt ready to act, relying on his draining enhancement to improve & defend himself, & complete his revenge plan. Those were his motivations, in line with his previous actions up until that point in history. Through his perspective, those were reasonable, logical actions & he felt no need to retread failed methods when he finally "succeeded". His attitude during the island attacks match profiles. When one considers something perfect, apathy is found for alternatives. On that note, one finds negativity when they seek it out. That extraordinary beings necessitate matching Freeza's might falls into his favor instead of detriment. It's only squandered if one chooses that road.

[Akira]

Doctor Gero's reasons for doing what he did were always clear to me. Cyborgs #17 and #18 were of infinite power core design, but it was a "set power" for both of them, thus limiting their future potential to only their human halves for advancement. They were also uncontrollable, and failed to follow orders, so back to the drawing board he went. The "energy absorption" design, while weaker initially, and was a previous design concept (#18 mentions this), allowed for greater potential in the long run via absorbing the ki of others to progress. Had they survived long enough to do so, #19 and #20 could have continued to absorb additional power and become stronger than even #17 and #18, given enough time. There is a specific logic and reason to Gero's motives. If we use the benefit of hindsight and "out of universe" knowledge to pick out the flaws in the plan after the fact, that isn't quite fair, is it? At least not from a story analysis standpoint, it isn't.

Cell was the failsafe backup plan to ensure that the mission would be fulfilled. The very combination of designs that Cog implies would be best. As a genetically engineered amalgamation of the universe's strongest DNA, he also began life as an "energy absorber", with the final process of his evolution being the eventual absorption of #17 and #18's power cores to complete his perfected form. You can also look at where "outside" or "out of universe" thinking got us with this concept. Once Toriyama was done with Dragonball, at the end of the manga's serialization, Toei continued the saga with the Dragonball GT series. You have "Super #17" as a set piece for your "infinite power core absorber" thought process. Which was much more lazy writing, and not considering the "in universe" progression more so than anything that happened in "Z".

What are we even "debating" here? The plausibility of a fictional character's motives to create artificial beings stronger than Freeza? Since we're looking at things from an out of universe viewpoint, consider that Toriyama wrote himself into a corner on that point. The editors wanted the series to continue, and he came up wth something that tied back into an earlier story arc for continuity and the sake of giving a plausible explanation for it. For seat of his pants, week to week short term planning, I think he did alright. In-universe, well, this guy Gero had what, 14, 15 years give or take since Goku had taken out his benefactor, the Red Ribbon Army? He had already shown the capability in building Cyborg #8 that he could create a being who surpassed the strongest in the world at that time (Turtle Hermit, Crane Hermit, Son Goku), who is to say that given enough time and resources, plus the spying from the 22nd Budokai forward until the Saiyan Arc battle, that he couldn't have enough data to see what would be necessary to create even more advanced life forms? The precedent for him to be able to do so was already there, so it isn't quite the "ass pull" that some would have you believe.

The "Androids Saga", on the whole, is one of the weaker arcs of the story, I will admit, but it still had some exciting moments and creative concepts not found elsewhere in the story. Within the boundaries of Dragon world fiction, it makes enough sense if you piece it all together. The problems with it aren't really the concepts, execution, nor the story being told. In my opinion, the problems lie in how pieces of the puzzle are revealed, sometimes out of order, and that the overlapping concepts just add to the confusion. You have time travelers changing history, multiple parallel timelines as a result of this, and then the whole world as we knew it changes again part way through due to another time traveler, but we view it as one consistent chain of events, when much more was going on behind the scenes. Pair that with the numbering concept of the androids, which we view fighting the protagonists out of numbered order, which adds to the confusion. Mix in a quick rematch with Freeza from the previous arc as an up front bookend, and then every saiyan becoming Super Saiyan on the other, and you've got a crockpot full of random ingredients and story elements that can't all be fully fleshed out by the end of the arc. I hate to say it, but if this arc failed at anything, it was in NOT holding the hand of the reader/viewer enough, rather than the opposite condition being the case.

The reader/viewer is left to re-read/watch multiple times to grasp everything that is going on, and even then, it often times leads to debate and confusion. I know when I first watched the crappy fansubs of this arc, way back when, I had a LOT of questions for other long time fans at the time. Even now, recalling some of their answers, I don't believe anyone fully understood it at the time. So, it doesn't surprise me that even today, these debates crop up. Let's look on the bright side of this though, I'd rather discuss the details of this arc and try to make sense of them any day over trying to argue Buu arc stuff! We can all agree on that, right?

[Gog]

Doctor Gero's reasons for doing what he did were always clear to me. Cyborgs #17 and #18 were of infinite power core design, but it was a "set power" for both of them, thus limiting their future potential to only their human halves for advancement. They were also uncontrollable, and failed to follow orders, so back to the drawing board he went. The "energy absorption" design, while weaker initially, and was a previous design concept (#18 mentions this), allowed for greater potential in the long run via absorbing the ki of others to progress. Had they survived long enough to do so, #19 and #20 could have continued to absorb additional power and become stronger than even #17 and #18, given enough time. There is a specific logic and reason to Gero's motives. If we use the benefit of hindsight and "out of universe" knowledge to pick out the flaws in the plan after the fact, that isn't quite fair, is it? At least not from a story analysis standpoint, it isn't.

Cell was the failsafe backup plan to ensure that the mission would be fulfilled. The very combination of designs that Cog implies would be best. As a genetically engineered amalgamation of the universe's strongest DNA, he also began life as an "energy absorber", with the final process of his evolution being the eventual absorption of #17 and #18's power cores to complete his perfected form. You can also look at where "outside" or "out of universe" thinking got us with this concept. Once Toriyama was done with Dragonball, at the end of the manga's serialization, Toei continued the saga with the Dragonball GT series. You have "Super #17" as a set piece for your "infinite power core absorber" thought process. Which was much more lazy writing, and not considering the "in universe" progression more so than anything that happened in "Z".

What are we even "debating" here? The plausibility of a fictional character's motives to create artificial beings stronger than Freeza? Since we're looking at things from an out of universe viewpoint, consider that Toriyama wrote himself into a corner on that point. The editors wanted the series to continue, and he came up wth something that tied back into an earlier story arc for continuity and the sake of giving a plausible explanation for it. For seat of his pants, week to week short term planning, I think he did alright. In-universe, well, this guy Gero had what, 14, 15 years give or take since Goku had taken out his benefactor, the Red Ribbon Army? He had already shown the capability in building Cyborg #8 that he could create a being who surpassed the strongest in the world at that time (Turtle Hermit, Crane Hermit, Son Goku), who is to say that given enough time and resources, plus the spying from the 22nd Budokai forward until the Saiyan Arc battle, that he couldn't have enough data to see what would be necessary to create even more advanced life forms? The precedent for him to be able to do so was already there, so it isn't quite the "ass pull" that some would have you believe.

The "Androids Saga", on the whole, is one of the weaker arcs of the story, I will admit, but it still had some exciting moments and creative concepts not found elsewhere in the story. Within the boundaries of Dragon world fiction, it makes enough sense if you piece it all together. The problems with it aren't really the concepts, execution, nor the story being told. In my opinion, the problems lie in how pieces of the puzzle are revealed, sometimes out of order, and that the overlapping concepts just add to the confusion. You have time travelers changing history, multiple parallel timelines as a result of this, and then the whole world as we knew it changes again part way through due to another time traveler, but we view it as one consistent chain of events, when much more was going on behind the scenes. Pair that with the numbering concept of the androids, which we view fighting the protagonists out of numbered order, which adds to the confusion. Mix in a quick rematch with Freeza from the previous arc as an up front bookend, and then every saiyan becoming Super Saiyan on the other, and you've got a crockpot full of random ingredients and story elements that can't all be fully fleshed out by the end of the arc. I hate to say it, but if this arc failed at anything, it was in NOT holding the hand of the reader/viewer enough, rather than the opposite condition being the case.

The reader/viewer is left to re-read/watch multiple times to grasp everything that is going on, and even then, it often times leads to debate and confusion. I know when I first watched the crappy fansubs of this arc, way back when, I had a LOT of questions for other long time fans at the time. Even now, recalling some of their answers, I don't believe anyone fully understood it at the time. So, it doesn't surprise me that even today, these debates crop up. Let's look on the bright side of this though, I'd rather discuss the details of this arc and try to make sense of them any day over trying to argue Buu arc stuff! We can all agree on that, right?

Actually Akira a few problems, the androids can actually get stronger, two I'm simply debating that it's out of character for Gero to not at the very least combine the two models and three that from Gero's personality it's just out of character for Gero to simply use a convoluted android model when he had a successful android model in the form of 18, or the fact that he never even combined the two models for himself.

[Lunaar]

Freeza ends up coming off as just unbelievably lucky, that some other genius didn't create a set of androids that ends his empire, and kills him.

I find this hilarious and absolutely true. Somehow makes me like Freeza a lot more, actually. What a fascinating concept! It's very Toriyama. Great observation, Gog.

the androids can actually get stronger,

...except they can not grow any stronger. That's been a fact. Unless you mean 19 and 20's energy absorption model, then you are correct.

it's out of character for Gero to not at the very least combine the two models and three that from Gero's personality it's just out of character for Gero to simply use a convoluted android model when he had a successful android model in the form of 18, or the fact that he never even combined the two models for himself.

It's out of character for you not to do that, but when we're not given the concept of him being able to just "combine" two technologies like they're Gundam model kits to begin with, your debate comes off as "I wish it were like this, it would make sense for me to like it more."

This conversation is running out of steam. Everything written by Akira was factually on-point and even sided with you on how the entirety of the Cell arc contains notable flaws. When two, very knowledgable, very polite board members are giving you a play by play on what we should take away from what we know and your only input is to debate, with opinions on how things "should" have played out - maybe the best way to respond in a thread for people expressing gears that have been ground would be a simple "I don't really like how Toriyama followed up on my favorite villain. It's difficult to follow with all of the android stuff and the power escalation is not as easy to believe this time" might have worked. It certainly wouldn't have been something riddled with alternative facts.

[Gog]

Freeza ends up coming off as just unbelievably lucky, that some other genius didn't create a set of androids that ends his empire, and kills him.

I find this hilarious and absolutely true. Somehow makes me like Freeza a lot more, actually. What a fascinating concept! It's very Toriyama. Great observation, Gog.

the androids can actually get stronger,

...except they can not grow any stronger. That's been a fact. Unless you mean 19 and 20's energy absorption model, then you are correct.

it's out of character for Gero to not at the very least combine the two models and three that from Gero's personality it's just out of character for Gero to simply use a convoluted android model when he had a successful android model in the form of 18, or the fact that he never even combined the two models for himself.

It's out of character for you not to do that, but when we're not given the concept of him being able to just "combine" two technologies like they're Gundam model kits to begin with, your debate comes off as "I wish it were like this, it would make sense for me to like it more."

This conversation is running out of steam. Everything written by Akira was factually on-point and even sided with you on how the entirety of the Cell arc contains notable flaws. When two, very knowledgable, very polite board members are giving you a play by play on what we should take away from what we know and your only input is to debate, with opinions on how things "should" have played out - maybe the best way to respond in a thread for people expressing gears that have been ground would be a simple "I don't really like how Toriyama followed up on my favorite villain. It's difficult to follow with all of the android stuff and the power escalation is not as easy to believe this time" might have worked. It certainly wouldn't have been something riddled with alternative facts.

'sigh' Yeah, your right. Dragging this conversation on any longer just won't be any fun. Especially considering that Akira basically signalized the end of the conversation.

New thing that grinds my gears.

When people say that the Arcosians live on a snowy hell hole.

[TekTheNinja]

"Well thats just youre onion man"
Yeah, no shit it's an my opinion, I don't need to add "IMO" to every post/comment. Luckily I don't see it much on here, but it still pisses me off.

Yeah, like when you don't specify that you mean, "IN MY OPINION" and people say that you were, "Stating your opinion as fact." It's like, no. Just because I don't say "IMO" after everything I say doesn't mean I'm saying my opinion is fact. That's just some bulllllllllllllllllllshit.

[Gog]

A recent thing that grinds my gears, that just keeps on popping up.

Is being messaged to join a Dragon Ball Forum. Jeez, just stop it. It's simply aggravating that people are advertising their sites to me. And it seems to be a thing that happens to other people as well.

[Kanassa]

A recent thing that grinds my gears, that just keeps on popping up.

Is being messaged to join a Dragon Ball Forum. Jeez, just stop it. It's simply aggravating that people are advertising their sites to me. And it seems to be a thing that happens to other people as well.

Really? I've never encountered that, all my spam is about donating to por- Charity. For cancer research.

[Gog]

A recent thing that grinds my gears, that just keeps on popping up.

Is being messaged to join a Dragon Ball Forum. Jeez, just stop it. It's simply aggravating that people are advertising their sites to me. And it seems to be a thing that happens to other people as well.

Really? I've never encountered that, all my spam is about donating to por- Charity. For cancer research.

It's happened about twice now. O-oh ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Kanassa,you dirty, dirty Namekian

[ekrolo2]

It really annoys me when people say they're opposed to violence against kids in DB but then they don't care that a 10-year-old (Piccolo) freaking dies there! This is a xenophobic double standard of the highest order!

[Lunaar]

It really annoys me when people say they're opposed to violence against kids in DB but then they don't care that a 10-year-old (Piccolo) freaking dies there! This is a xenophobic double standard of the highest order!

It's discriminatory and should be addressed immediately! #allchildrensmatter #allnamekiansmatter #alleunichsmatter

[rereboy]

That means that Piccolo lied about his age to get his driving lessons. What a criminal.

[The gr]

That were being too harsh on T,T&T is toriyama,Toei and toybleI feel like they get attacked too much and especially Toei

[Kanassa]

That were being too harsh on T,T&T is toriyama,Toei and toybleI feel like they get attacked too much and especially Toei

I wouldn't say they get 'attacked' (Unless today's standards have defanged that word as well), I would say much more unbalanced blame. It wasn't until recently that anything people disliked was always Toei's fault, in some way, no matter how much of a stretch. And a slew of buzzwords like 'lazy' get thrown around way too easily. No, disliking an aspect is not the same as it being lazy.

Though there are many completely understandable and valid criticisms.

[The gr]

That were being too harsh on T,T&T is toriyama,Toei and toybleI feel like they get attacked too much and especially Toei

I wouldn't say they get 'attacked' (Unless today's standards have defanged that word as well), I would say much more unbalanced blame. It wasn't until recently that anything people disliked was always Toei's fault, in some way, no matter how much of a stretch. And a slew of buzzwords like 'lazy' get thrown around way too easily. No, disliking an aspect is not the same as it being lazy.

Though there are many completely understandable and valid criticisms.

your right about that and I just coined a term T,T&T

[Jinzoningen MULE]

It wasn't until recently that anything people disliked was always Toei's fault

That's because the entire DBS situation hasn't happened until recently. Since Toei is creating a significant part of the story, and we can deduce which parts by where it differs from Toyotaro, we know who to blame is something turns out rotten. Also, Toei is responsible for the scheduling issues as well as the bland models and coloring. I don't think I need to go any deeper into that, the details are common knowledge at this point.

Toei doesn't get disproportionately blamed for mishaps unjustly, they bring it on themselves by doing sub-par shit. Granted, they are improving a ton lately, so maybe that won't be the case from now on.