Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Yuji]

No, I meant God. I have God at slightly weaker than 4 only because 10x SS3 is a neat multiplier but I take no issue with people thinking they're equivalent.

As for the Blue comparisons, the only thing Heroes pushes is that SS4 Xeno Goku = SSB CC Goku. If anything this proves SSB is much stronger as a multiplier, as base Xeno Goku can contend with the likes Kid Boo without issue and seems to be stronger than CC Goku in their equivalent golden forms.

[Koitsukai]

It's pretty clear how the GT and DBS forms stand against each other. Luckily, SS4 and SSG were compared to the same type of fusion, a bit above, a bit below SS fusion? it doesn't really matter, the point is turning SS4 and turning SSG puts an individual on SS fusion level(blond form fusees only). SSB is a whole other beast, 10x at least what a blond-only-fusees-SS fusion could provide.

SS4 and SSB being equals in Heroes or in other games is mostly due to the users of said forms. GT Goku has a base form that can fight Kid Buu's regen, while DBS base Goku is hardly something to write home about. That alone covers the gap between the forms, GT Goku starts with a huge advantage, while DBS Goku starts way behind, and has two forms that make up for his slow start.

For what I've read, Xeno Goku is even stronger than GT Goku, so his SS4 being on par with a post-DBS Blue Goku only speaks volumes of the SSB form.

[QuakingStar]

What is your gap between Ultimate Gohan and Super Vegetto? I have it as a 10x gap. If I use numbers then:

Ultimate Gohan: 60
Gohan-Boo: 100
Super Vegetto: 600

Same, more or less.

Ultimate Gohan: 360
Gohan-Boo: 600
Super Vegetto: 5,000

Base Vegetto > SSJ3 Goku, so Super Vegetto could easily be 100x SSJ3 Goku. Ultimate Gohan is many times stronger than Goku, but I don't think he gets to be tens of times stronger. Just a neat 10x at most. SSJ Gotenks can just be in SSJ3 Goku's level without surpassing him.

I had made a list a long time ago but it needs reworking. As I said in the other thread, I like to keep the idea that Super Vegetto, SS4 Goku and SSG Goku are all around the same tier of strength.

You mean SSJB?

If not, then I can definitely see all those guys being in the same level, more or less. I don't have anything against SSJ4 Goku ~ Boo Saga Super Vegetto, but I always thought the comparison being made was to a hypothetical GT Super Vegetto.

In practice, SSJG is basically a SSJ4, and SSJB is basically a SSJ5, so SSJ4 being on pair with Blue and just blowing God out of the water always felt wrong for me. Even if I want to take Heroes seriously, Xeno Goku isn't even the same guy as GT Goku.

It is hypothetical, the page was referring to Goku's forms and treated Potara and Vegito as a form. Essentially it was the power gain of Super Saiyan 4 being compared to the power gained through a hypothetical Vegito and obviously it would be referring to Vegito's full power, a lot of people got it confused saying "well they were using a picture of Buu Saga Vegito" well duh, there are no other pics of Vegito that's literally the only time he showed up at that point. Also, in Heroes base Goku CC was able to fight base Goku Xeno pretty equally, they both went 4 and Blue and continued to fight equally and this was after Goku CC had gotten far stronger by training in a makeshift timechamber with Vegeta CC and using Universal SSB against Fuu. Essentially Blue and 4 are on equal grounds.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So I was just talking about GT vs Super on another forum and since it was brought up here too, why not make a list? I think this is the first time I actually do one with the official multipliers, rather than making SSJ a 2x boost.

I don't think I ever watched GT in it's entirety though, so I'll be skipping a lot of minor characters and events.

In units of billions:

Spoiler:

Boo Saga Redux

SSJ3 Goku: 40

SSJ Gotenks: 31.25
~ SSJ3: 250

Ultimate Gohan: 360

Super Boo: 240
~ Gohan absorbed: 600

Vegetto: 100
~ SSJ: 5,000

Baby Saga

The first episodes are very irrelevant power-wise, so no need to do them.

General Rildo: 750
~ Merged with Sigma Force: 30,000
~ Merged with Planet M2: 45,000

Gohan: 10
~ SSJ: 500

I can't remember if it was ever stated Baby increased the power of his hosts. Gohan has kept training, but not with his Ultimate form for some reason. I think Baby says Gohan is stronger than Trunks? Although M2 suggests Trunks > Rildo...

Vegeta: 12
~ SSJ: 600
~ SSJ2: 1,200

SSJ Baby Gohan gives SSJ Vegeta a bit of a fight and overwhelms him with Baby Goten's help.

Goku: 750
~ SSJ: 37,500
~ SSJ2: 75,000
~ SSJ3: 300,000
~ Golden Oozaru: 3,000,000
~ SSJ4: 30,000,000
~ Full power: 37,500,000

Baby Vegeta: 360,000
~ Strongest Form 1: 720,000
~ Strongest Form 2: 2,880,000
~ Golden Oozaru: 28,800,000

Baby Vegeta was "more than an even match" to SSJ3 Goku, according to either the narrator or the Perfect Files. The Perfect Files compare each of Baby's transformation to a Super Saiyan form, so same boosts are applied.

Oob: 250,000
~ Merged with Boo: 2,500,000

Super 17 & Evil Dragons Saga

SSJ4 Goku: 37,500,000
~ Beyond limits: 150,000,000

GT Perfect Files say SSJ4 is a potential unlock, so I think Goku's SSJ4 power is the same before he breaks his Limits against Yi Xing Long.

Super 17: 30,000,000
~ Post absorptions: 45,000,000

Si Xing Long: 36,000,000
San Xing Long: 30,000,000

Yi Xing Long: 60,000,000
~ Dragon Balls absorbed: 600,000,000

SSJ4 Vegeta: 150,000,000

SSJ4 Gogeta: 5,000,000,000

Tens of times stronger than an individual SSJ4, but not quite 100x times. The difference between Gogeta and Yi is the same as Vegetto and Boo in the Boo Saga.

[QuakingStar]

I like the list, mostly. though SS4 likely more than 10x stronger than GGA considering the difference in power between Baby Vegeta and SS3 Goku, then again with Super Baby Vegeta 2 and SS3 Goku but with his tail which stablized SS3 negating its energy drain Then we see GGA Baby going toe to toe with SS4 Goku even though Goku was stronger. GGA also has a higher multiplier than x10 as while one is in GGA their power continues to grow and grow as Pan was sensing.

https://i.imgur.com/QiA9zGA.png


So this means GGA really doesn't have a power limit while one is transformed, it might START at 10x SS3 but that's it, it just starts there.

SS4 on the other hand is a further transformation from GGA and it unlocks the users dormant power aka Potential Unleashed but seeing as it's a further transformation from GGA this means it's essentially GGA after getting Potential Unleashed? maybe.

https://i.imgur.com/0ezOF0H.png

Overall the hypothetical GT Vegito's full power would be comparable to the power SS4 transformation brought Goku.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I like the list, mostly. though SS4 likely more than 10x stronger than GGA considering the difference in power between Baby Vegeta and SS3 Goku, then again with Super Baby Vegeta 2 and SS3 Goku but with his tail which stablized SS3 negating its energy drain Then we see GGA Baby going toe to toe with SS4 Goku even though Goku was stronger. GGA also has a higher multiplier than x10 as while one is in GGA their power continues to grow and grow as Pan was sensing.

https://i.imgur.com/QiA9zGA.png


So this means GGA really doesn't have a power limit while one is transformed, it might START at 10x SS3 but that's it, it just starts there.

SS4 on the other hand is a further transformation from GGA and it unlocks the users dormant power aka Potential Unleashed but seeing as it's a further transformation from GGA this means it's essentially GGA after getting Potential Unleashed? maybe.

https://i.imgur.com/0ezOF0H.png

Overall the hypothetical GT Vegito's full power would be comparable to the power SS4 transformation brought Goku.

It's also said Baby Vegeta was bombarded with like 10,000x more blutz waves than Goku was right? So Baby was more than 10x stronger even at first. Or was that just to compensante for Vegeta not having a tail?

SSJ4 seems to be triggered by Goku gaining control of himself, and the potential unlock came as a side effect. Come to think of it, it's like the whole deal Gas went through in Super, or Kale in the anime.

[Hugo Boss]

It's pretty clear how the GT and DBS forms stand against each other. Luckily, SS4 and SSG were compared to the same type of fusion, a bit above, a bit below SS fusion? it doesn't really matter, the point is turning SS4 and turning SSG puts an individual on SS fusion level(blond form fusees only). SSB is a whole other beast, 10x at least what a blond-only-fusees-SS fusion could provide.

SS4 and SSB being equals in Heroes or in other games is mostly due to the users of said forms. GT Goku has a base form that can fight Kid Buu's regen, while DBS base Goku is hardly something to write home about. That alone covers the gap between the forms, GT Goku starts with a huge advantage, while DBS Goku starts way behind, and has two forms that make up for his slow start.

For what I've read, Xeno Goku is even stronger than GT Goku, so his SS4 being on par with a post-DBS Blue Goku only speaks volumes of the SSB form.

I’m curious. How strong do you think DBS Base Goku is in DB Heroes in comparison to Majin Boo?

[QuakingStar]

I like the list, mostly. though SS4 likely more than 10x stronger than GGA considering the difference in power between Baby Vegeta and SS3 Goku, then again with Super Baby Vegeta 2 and SS3 Goku but with his tail which stablized SS3 negating its energy drain Then we see GGA Baby going toe to toe with SS4 Goku even though Goku was stronger. GGA also has a higher multiplier than x10 as while one is in GGA their power continues to grow and grow as Pan was sensing.

https://i.imgur.com/QiA9zGA.png


So this means GGA really doesn't have a power limit while one is transformed, it might START at 10x SS3 but that's it, it just starts there.

SS4 on the other hand is a further transformation from GGA and it unlocks the users dormant power aka Potential Unleashed but seeing as it's a further transformation from GGA this means it's essentially GGA after getting Potential Unleashed? maybe.

https://i.imgur.com/0ezOF0H.png

Overall the hypothetical GT Vegito's full power would be comparable to the power SS4 transformation brought Goku.

It's also said Baby Vegeta was bombarded with like 10,000x more blutz waves than Goku was right? So Baby was more than 10x stronger even at first. Or was that just to compensante for Vegeta not having a tail?

SSJ4 seems to be triggered by Goku gaining control of himself, and the potential unlock came as a side effect. Come to think of it, it's like the whole deal Gas went through in Super, or Kale in the anime.

If I remember correctly, Tuffle Bulma had figured out that to bypass one not having a tail all they needed was a far greater amount of blutz waves and, yup it is indeed the similar in the fact that gaining control awakened a new power within them.


On the subject of GGA Old Kai implies if Goku's tail was regrown properly he would have controlled the GGA form faster or better?

https://i.imgur.com/KrMkHtz.jpg



and here he says using the brutz waves to force him into GGA without a tail, the sense of rationality is likely completely lost though I will point out that in the Shadow Dragon Saga Vegeta proved this wrong, and in heroes Gohan Xeno proved it wrong too and pretty much took control just as fast as GT Vegeta did.

https://i.imgur.com/oDAbjD5.png

[Koitsukai]

I’m curious. How strong do you think DBS Base Goku is in DB Heroes in comparison to Majin Boo?

Well, events on Comesson Planet aside due to it being the SBG thing, Goku loses to Thin Buu who's said to be faster while having that power, so likely better than Mr. Buu, while GT Goku is first seen overpowering Uub and will continue to get stronger, so one is Mr. Buu tier, the other one is probably Super Buu tier by the end of GT/beginning of Heroes. From SS2-ish to beyond SS3 level, I'd said.
And that's lowballing, if you think Rildo was beyond Buuhan, then base GT Goku by the end of GT/Early Heroes is just on another realm.

[Hugo Boss]

I’m curious. How strong do you think DBS Base Goku is in DB Heroes in comparison to Majin Boo?

Well, events on Comesson Planet aside due to it being the SBG thing, Goku loses to Thin Buu who's said to be faster while having that power, so likely better than Mr. Buu, while GT Goku is first seen overpowering Uub and will continue to get stronger, so one is Mr. Buu tier, the other one is probably Super Buu tier by the end of GT/beginning of Heroes. From SS2-ish to beyond SS3 level, I'd said.
And that's lowballing, if you think Rildo was beyond Buuhan, then base GT Goku by the end of GT/Early Heroes is just on another realm.

After watching both animated series, from my perspective, it’s more believable that DBS Goku is superior to DBGT Goku.

Firstly, DBS Goku has the most advanced teacher in the universe, Whis, while DBGT Goku had to train Oob right from the basics just to have a training partner. At best, DBGT Goku was tutored by Old Kaioshin, who not only couldn’t spar with him, but was forced to suspend his training in the middle.

Secondly, DBS Goku had more opportunities to train and fight powerful opponents than DBGT Goku. Dragon Ball Super shows Goku fighting a wide variety of villains, such as Beerus, Freeza, Hit, Jiren, among others, and facing challenging situations in martial arts tournaments. These battles and challenges offered Goku much more opportunities to improve his combat skills and techniques.

If I had to bet, I would say DBS Goku could rival DBZ Vegetto, if we are considering only their normal and vanilla Super Saiyan forms.

However, if I had to consider that Xeno Goku is superior to DBGT Goku, it would be difficult for me to say which of the two is stronger in their normal form, as there is little specific information about Xeno Goku’s abilities and powers compared to DBS Goku. So, my answer would be: inconclusive.

[QuakingStar]

The best we get as comparison for Xeno Goku and DBS/CC Goku come from the recent Heroes stuff. Both are toe to toe in base and then again in SS4/SSB and this is after the timechamber training and universal Blue stuff for CC Goku.

[MisteryOne]

The best we get as comparison for Xeno Goku and DBS/CC Goku come from the recent Heroes stuff. Both are toe to toe in base and then again in SS4/SSB and this is after the timechamber training and universal Blue stuff for CC Goku.

This just isn't true tho. Their most recent fight in the manga has Blue Goku being equal to Limit Breaker SS4 Xeno Goku, not the vanilla form. They are easy to tell apart by the hair's highlights (never present in the normal SS4, a pretty clever move on Nagayama's part) and it fits with what is shown previously, including their Fusion of Ki form.

It's also worth mentioning that in their first fight back in the Prison Planet in the original arcade Blue Goku was stronger, so that's the easiest way to compare the forms. Also worth noting when talking about the arcade is how much stronger Xeno Goku is compared to his GT version -let's not forget Xeno Gogeta defeated Omega Shenron with just SS1-

It really depends on what version we are talking about, but overall the idea is definetly that the Blue Goku has an advantage on SS4.

[QuakingStar]

The best we get as comparison for Xeno Goku and DBS/CC Goku come from the recent Heroes stuff. Both are toe to toe in base and then again in SS4/SSB and this is after the timechamber training and universal Blue stuff for CC Goku.

This just isn't true tho. Their most recent fight in the manga has Blue Goku being equal to Limit Breaker SS4 Xeno Goku, not the vanilla form. They are easy to tell apart by the hair's highlights (never present in the normal SS4, a pretty clever move on Nagayama's part) and it fits with what is shown previously, including their Fusion of Ki form.

It's also worth mentioning that in their first fight back in the Prison Planet in the original arcade Blue Goku was stronger, so that's the easiest way to compare the forms. Also worth noting when talking about the arcade is how much stronger Xeno Goku is compared to his GT version -let's not forget Xeno Gogeta defeated Omega Shenron with just SS1-

It really depends on what version we are talking about, but overall the idea is definetly that the Blue Goku has an advantage on SS4.

Incorrect. You're using three different versions of Heroes that each differ, so that's invalid.

The same people who made the Heroes anime also made GT so if we are going to use SS4 at all the best use would be the anime version since SS4's literal creators are making it, and in the anime it was plain old SS4, and in the anime on the prison planet they tied with SSB v SS4. SS4 does not exist in DBS nor Toriyama's story, and SSB does not exist in GT. Xeno Goku's power compared to GT Goku has nothing to do with CC Goku's power.

[MisteryOne]

The best we get as comparison for Xeno Goku and DBS/CC Goku come from the recent Heroes stuff. Both are toe to toe in base and then again in SS4/SSB and this is after the timechamber training and universal Blue stuff for CC Goku.

This just isn't true tho. Their most recent fight in the manga has Blue Goku being equal to Limit Breaker SS4 Xeno Goku, not the vanilla form. They are easy to tell apart by the hair's highlights (never present in the normal SS4, a pretty clever move on Nagayama's part) and it fits with what is shown previously, including their Fusion of Ki form.

It's also worth mentioning that in their first fight back in the Prison Planet in the original arcade Blue Goku was stronger, so that's the easiest way to compare the forms. Also worth noting when talking about the arcade is how much stronger Xeno Goku is compared to his GT version -let's not forget Xeno Gogeta defeated Omega Shenron with just SS1-

It really depends on what version we are talking about, but overall the idea is definetly that the Blue Goku has an advantage on SS4.

Incorrect. You're using three different versions of Heroes that each differ, so that's invalid.

The same people who made the Heroes anime also made GT so if we are going to use SS4 at all the best use would be the anime version since SS4's literal creators are making it, and in the anime it was plain old SS4, and in the anime on the prison planet they tied with SSB v SS4. SS4 does not exist in DBS nor Toriyama's story, and SSB does not exist in GT. Xeno Goku's power compared to GT Goku has nothing to do with CC Goku's power.

Except that the Heroes anime is literally a promotional adaptation anime that omits key elementos of the story. It even omitted Majin Ozotto who was a key player in the Prison Planet and the Universal Conflict arcs. It isn't invalid if two out of the three versions share Blue being stronger, specially when the original story is the arcade one and the others are adaptations and the only one where it isn't true happens to be the shorter one that skips a lot of stuff. So no, what I said isn't "incorrect", all what I stated except the last paragraph is just fact while you are asserting your own assumptions above what the very own material says. Not to mention how plain inconsistent the power levels in the anime version are, but even then, if you are using Heroes to compare, at the very least you have to consider the original arcade story.

Also, if you are only using the anime version, Goku and Vegeta never fought their Xeno versions in the Mock time Chambers. Hell, they were never stated to grow stronger in it, they just worked on being able to transform into UI/ Berserk Controlled at will so bringing that up using your own logic would be irrelevant. They are also not made by the same people, just because Toei makes the promotional anime doesn't mean their staff is nowhere close to the one who made GT- you can easily check them out in the credits! It's a barebones anime meant to promote the actual story of the arcade.

I'm sorry but those last sentences are just plain ridiculous. If you are going by the logic of SS4 not existing in Toriyama's works there was never a point in bringing Heroes up in the first place. The entire point of this is, if you even being the Heroes stuff up, is to use it as a direct comparison. Both Blue and 4 exist in it. And how does it not "have anything to do"? Xeno Goku being massively stronger than GT Goku is important if you are trying to compare his DBS and GT versions which people on this thread were talking about. Heroes is not just showing them facing off, the Xeno version is not just GT.

If you don't want to compare DBS and GT Gokus on the basic principle of them being completely different continuities that's more than fair. But again if you decide to use Heroes to do so, you have to keep in mind you are not just seeing GT Goku there.

[Mireya]

Who's the first character to reach a billion BP for you guys?

[FPSSJ4_Goku]

Who's the first character to reach a billion BP for you guys?

Probably Super Vegeta against Cell. Also, someone tell Kaboom that there's an error in his DBZ series power level list: https://kaboomkrusader.neocities.org/Kaboom_DBZ_PLs

[Kaboom]

Same for me, Super Vegeta's the first one to cross the 1 billion mark. I have him at 1.2 billion.

Also, what error?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Who's the first character to reach a billion BP for you guys?

Super Vegeta at 1.26 billion. Semi Cell comes close though, at 960 million.

[FPSSJ4_Goku]

Same for me, Super Vegeta's the first one to cross the 1 billion mark. I have him at 1.2 billion.

Also, what error?

Super Saiyan Grade 2 Trunks is listed as 110,000,000 instead of 1,100,000,000 (1.1 billion)

[Kaboom]

Super Saiyan Grade 2 Trunks is listed as 110,000,000 instead of 1,100,000,000 (1.1 billion)

Ah okay, thanks. Those kinds of "oops, not enough digits" mistakes happen a lot.