Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

I don't see how this was a retcon considering that Gohan was doing better against Lavender than Buu did against Basil before he got serious. Even then, Buu got ahead thanks to his regeneration. Finally, we don't know how Lavender and Basil's power compared since they can't be sense.

If it's before Buu got serious then it doesn't really mean anything. Buu had regeneration but he fought against a Basil who was further powered up and he actually said he was more powerful.

Super Saiyan Gohan had an edge against a non powered up Lavender. There's not going to be a vast difference between the two. There's not going to be one who people were saying was maybe Perfect Cell level and then two who are considerably above Super Saiyan God.

Lavender certainly isn't anyway because he was beaten by a Gohan who is currently weaker than Buu saga Mystic Gohan.

Base Saiyans crush Piccolo.

For Goku and Vegeta perhaps back then anyway. Who knows how it goes now. He was seemingly God level at one point but now he's about as strong as Base Gohan.

Lavender isn't anywhere near the Super Saiyans

He was going toe to toe with him. This was when he only just went Super Saiyan aswell when the poison was only affecting his eyesight. The poison was affecting Gohans health but we don't know if he was actually losing power, that wasn't said.

[LowRyder2005]

Base Saiyans are just stronger than Good Boo, which shouldn't be of any surprise since Base Vegeta tanked SSJ3 Gotenks.

But that would also make Piccolo above Good Buu and they all but say that he wasn't. Ignoring Super Saiyan for now it could go like this and still work.

Good Buu > Buff Basil > Base Gohan = Piccolo > Lavender = Basil

Of course that could also make Base Goku below Good Buu which would be the retcon otherwise Lavender and Bergamo are vastly above SSJ3 Gotenks and Basil is just a chump in comparison which didn't seem to be the implication.

Buu mostly had the edge over Basil thanks to his body type, not just raw strength where Basil actually overwhelmed Buu at several points.

Have to disagree here. Majin Buu most likely had a serious edge in raw strength as well: Basil was wrecked in a few hits the moment Buu didn't "play" anymore. Maybe a case could be made for drugged Basil being comparable to Good Buu in raw power, but it's been made clear that Buu was completely out of regular Basil's league regardless of whatever the opponent tried (and most likely still was, even after the drug). Basil had a good feat in not getting obliterated by Buu's full-power Kamehameha, but that's it.

Besides, I'd say Good/Fat Buu has always been a kind of rope-a-dope fighter ever since the eponymous saga (bar Base Gotenks, he'd get constantly punched, kicked and skewered plenty even by weaker opponents like Majin Vegeta or Dabra), so getting punished a little is pretty run-of-the-mill stuff for him; not to mention that the gist here was that Good Buu was, like, totally not serious up until Mr. Satan got hurt.

Lavenda is in-between Base and Super Saiyan Gohan, we'll probably never have an appreciably more accurate answer since the drug could have been wearing Gohan out almost from the start (and the handicap conditions under which Gohan fought made everything even hazier).

[ChiefWamsutta]

Are we all able to agree that Buu and Gohan were generally in the same tier of power?

Could we also agree that Lavender and Basil are generally in the same tier of power?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Are we all able to agree that Buu and Gohan were generally in the same tier of power?

Could we also agree that Lavender and Basil are generally in the same tier of power?

I suppose it's possible, though it would mean Gohan's strength has tripled since the Buu Arc.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Are we all able to agree that Buu and Gohan were generally in the same tier of power?

Could we also agree that Lavender and Basil are generally in the same tier of power?

I suppose it's possible, though it would mean Gohan's strength has tripled since the Buu Arc.

I'm not sure I follow how this would be the case. Are you talking about his Super Saiyan form power being greater than during the Buu Saga?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Are we all able to agree that Buu and Gohan were generally in the same tier of power?

Could we also agree that Lavender and Basil are generally in the same tier of power?

I suppose it's possible, though it would mean Gohan's strength has tripled since the Buu Arc.

I'm not sure I follow how this would be the case. Are you talking about his Super Saiyan form power being greater than during the Buu Saga?

Yeah, back then even his SSJ2 didn't measure up to Buu.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Yeah, back then even his SSJ2 didn't measure up to Buu.

Ahhhh, okay, I gotcha. To be honest, I don't see it out of the realm of possibility because of how they want him to be relevant again. He did keep up with SS Goku, who could be seen in that area based on the Retcon Theory.

[ZombieVito]

Are we all able to agree that Buu and Gohan were generally in the same tier of power?

Could we also agree that Lavender and Basil are generally in the same tier of power?

If you are referring to base Gohan and Boo then yes. I still think Boo is stronger since it didn't seem like Future Trunks base was that much stronger than Super Saiyan kid Trunks in episode 59 but we shall see.

Super Saiyan Gohan is obviously much stronger than Boo.

[Marlowe89]

Buu mostly had the edge over Basil thanks to his body type, not just raw strength where Basil actually overwhelmed Buu at several points.

No, Buu had an edge over Basil because he was just flat-out stronger. He was clearly toying with him in the beginning and if that wasn't enough confirmation, Buu's superiority in strength is outright stated in the episode.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Yeah, I'm just feeling like Goku needing to go Super Saiyan against Bergamo heavily leans towards the Retcon Theory.

It would be much too weird to have Basil and Lavender around Buu Saga levels while Bergamo at SSGod Goku level.

He has to generally be around his brothers' levels.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Yeah, I'm just feeling like Goku needing to go Super Saiyan against Bergamo heavily leans towards the Retcon Theory.

It would be much too weird to have Basil and Lavender around Buu Saga levels while Bergamo at SSGod Goku level.

He has to generally be around his brothers' levels.

Goku went SSJ against Frost as well, it could be that he's not using his god level strength because it would be too easy.

[Bullza]

I'm sure Bergamo will be the strongest of the three but unless they went out of their way to say Bergamo was on a completely different level from the others I'll just assume he was on the same general tier as his brothers.

As no such comment was said about Lavender that's why I think he is just about as strong as Basil without the drug.

That's why I think Buu is probably stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan who could just be at his Buu saga strength.

[ZombieVito]

I'm sure Bergamo will be the strongest of the three but unless they went out of their way to say Bergamo was on a completely different level from the others I'll just assume he was on the same general tier as his brothers.

As no such comment was said about Lavender that's why I think he is just about as strong as Basil without the drug.

That's why I think Buu is probably stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan who could just be at his Buu saga strength.

Makes no sense whatsoever. Gohan's base was already on par with Piccolo since episode 30 and Boo is not 50 times stronger than Piccolo.

Lavander said that the poison will rot Gohan's body and that to me means his power will decrease. It's just like another heart virus.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I'm sure Bergamo will be the strongest of the three but unless they went out of their way to say Bergamo was on a completely different level from the others I'll just assume he was on the same general tier as his brothers.

As no such comment was said about Lavender that's why I think he is just about as strong as Basil without the drug.

That's why I think Buu is probably stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan who could just be at his Buu saga strength.

Makes no sense whatsoever. Gohan's base was already on par with Piccolo since episode 30 and Boo is not 50 times stronger than Piccolo.

Lavander said that the poison will rot Gohan's body and that to me means his power will decrease. It's just like another heart virus.

I don't think Gohan's SSJ was a full 50x multiplier back then, he wouldn't be much weaker than his Ultimate state if it was.

[ZombieVito]

I'm sure Bergamo will be the strongest of the three but unless they went out of their way to say Bergamo was on a completely different level from the others I'll just assume he was on the same general tier as his brothers.

As no such comment was said about Lavender that's why I think he is just about as strong as Basil without the drug.

That's why I think Buu is probably stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan who could just be at his Buu saga strength.

Makes no sense whatsoever. Gohan's base was already on par with Piccolo since episode 30 and Boo is not 50 times stronger than Piccolo.

Lavander said that the poison will rot Gohan's body and that to me means his power will decrease. It's just like another heart virus.

I don't think Gohan's SSJ was a full 50x multiplier back then, he wouldn't be much weaker than his Ultimate state if it was.

Why? No change was ever stated. We don't have a single instance in the entire series that implies the multiplier changing or being different to each Saiyan.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Makes no sense whatsoever. Gohan's base was already on par with Piccolo since episode 30 and Boo is not 50 times stronger than Piccolo.

Lavander said that the poison will rot Gohan's body and that to me means his power will decrease. It's just like another heart virus.

I don't think Gohan's SSJ was a full 50x multiplier back then, he wouldn't be much weaker than his Ultimate state if it was.

Why? No change was ever stated. We don't have a single instance in the entire series that implies the multiplier changing or being different to each Saiyan.

If his base was still above Piccolo, that means he mustn't have lost his unlock completely since if he did he'd be weaker than Namek Freeza. SSJ doesn't stack on his potential unlock since if it did he would have used it against Buu.

[ZombieVito]

If his base was still above Piccolo, that means he mustn't have lost his unlock completely since if he did he'd be weaker than Namek Freeza. SSJ doesn't stack on his potential unlock since if it did he would have used it against Buu.

His base was already stated in both the movie and Super to be stronger than Piccolo.

[Noah]

This chain looks good to me:

SSJ Goku > SSJ Gohan >>>>>> Base Goku > Base Gohan >= Lavender >>> SSJ3 Gotenks >>> Good Boo > Basil (Drugs) = Majin Vegeta > SPC > Basil

Do you guys agree with that as well? Base Goku and Gohan being stronger Good Boo, maybe?

I think Gohan BP is messed up when he transforms in SSJ is not a 50x boost anymore, he uses to bring a portion of his "Ultimate" power back, probably.

[Beyond]

If his base was still above Piccolo, that means he mustn't have lost his unlock completely since if he did he'd be weaker than Namek Freeza. SSJ doesn't stack on his potential unlock since if it did he would have used it against Buu.

His base was already stated in both the movie and Super to be stronger than Piccolo.

At this point you pretty much have to accept that Piccolo got hit with the nerf bat. Goku should be closer to his manga power level in this arc.

[DBZ Macky]

Makes no sense whatsoever. Gohan's base was already on par with Piccolo since episode 30 and Boo is not 50 times stronger than Piccolo.

Lavander said that the poison will rot Gohan's body and that to me means his power will decrease. It's just like another heart virus.

I don't think Gohan's SSJ was a full 50x multiplier back then, he wouldn't be much weaker than his Ultimate state if it was.

Why? No change was ever stated. We don't have a single instance in the entire series that implies the multiplier changing or being different to each Saiyan.

Think of it like the 2 base theory.
My powar levul numbas:
Gohan
Base- 68,000,000
Ultimate-ish- 2,720,000,000
Super Saiyan- 3,400,000,000
Lavenda
Full Power- 3,000,000,000

Lavenda had a clear advantage over Gohan, dodging his attacks easily even when Gohan was at his best. This Gohan probably has some of his "Ultimate" powers that puts him stronger than Piccolo.

Gohan then multiplies his actual base (without the "Ultimate" power) by 50x by going Super Saiyan.
This gives him a clear advantage over Lavenda, but because of the poison, the advantage is barely noticeable.

That's how I interpret it. What about you guys?

P.S. I favor the 2-base theory, but if the "quality" of a universe is decided purely by power, then it certainly is believable that Cabba and co. really ARE stronger than Vegetto.