DBZ Macky wrote:ZombieVito wrote:TheUltimateNinja wrote:
I don't think Gohan's SSJ was a full 50x multiplier back then, he wouldn't be much weaker than his Ultimate state if it was.
Why? No change was ever stated. We don't have a single instance in the entire series that implies the multiplier changing or being different to each Saiyan.
Think of it like the 2 base theory.
My powar levul numbas:
Gohan
Base- 68,000,000
Ultimate-ish- 2,720,000,000
Super Saiyan- 3,400,000,000
Lavenda
Full Power- 3,000,000,000
Lavenda had a clear advantage over Gohan, dodging his attacks easily even when Gohan was at his best. This Gohan probably has some of his "Ultimate" powers that puts him stronger than Piccolo.
Gohan then multiplies his actual base (without the "Ultimate" power) by 50x by going Super Saiyan.
This gives him a clear advantage over Lavenda, but because of the poison, the advantage is barely noticeable.
That's how I interpret it. What about you guys?
P.S. I favor the 2-base theory, but if the "quality" of a universe is decided purely by power, then it certainly is believable that Cabba and co. really ARE stronger than Vegetto.
Agreed with this idea, this was my preferred theory for the feats in ROF as well (Base < Bit of Ultimate < *50 < full Ultimate). If we really want to go down that way and pretend TOEI cares about consistency, that is. May I remember everyone that we saw Base Goku fighting better than Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta against Hit? And yet I don't think anyone was lead to believe Goku was stronger than Vegeta in that occasion. Honestly, when character A exchange blows in base, transforms and the fight continues on even terms I
personally believe we should just assume they were not going all out. Do note: chances are we are definitely gonna see something similar with
Base Goku fighting Bergamo and then transforming in Super Saiyan. Both Tagoma vs. Base Gohan, Base Goku vs. Hit are not really meant to be indicative of the characters' true strength (unless Piccolo drastically dropped in power).
For the average, though, it's just that, an average. The elite of fighters are not necessarily representative of the average. Think about it: there could be a guy with a power level of 1 billion and another of 1/billionth in the same universe and the average PL would be "1" (and yes, I was basically convinced that they were talking about power and not "moral standing" or something analogous the moment I watched the episode with subs); the universe would be on average weaker than the average U7 earthling.
My numbers are something like this:
SS Goku: 19.5
Good Buu: 7.5
SS Gohan: 4.4
Drugged Basil: 3.75
Chou-ish Gohan: 2
SS Gohan: 1.5 (average; poison)
Basil: 0.9
Lavenda: 0.6
Base Gohan: 0.084
Answering other objections with my two cents:
- The fact that the fighters were supposedly scaled in power according to their entry number doesn't really make sense even from a logical point of view, to me. It didn't even work for U6 vs. U7, why are we supposed to believe that it is the case here when Mr. Buu and Basil were - tentatively - made to appear much stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan (although, well, poison) and Lavenda?
- For people talking about Ultimate and Super Saiyan stacking, I think it's really doubtful they do. Gohan had access to both forms in BOG, was not ostensibly weaker (at least not as weak as he was in ROF) and yet and he didn't try fighting Beerus with this theoretical Super Saiyan/ "Super Ultimate" state. The white aura is indeed "Ultimate" Gohan's aura color when he goes Chou, but it's also the same white aura that every base human character usually possess (Goku included). I have to admit TOEI is making things - as usual - pretty confusing, though.
@apex_predator: what would there be to suggest that
base Gohan is stronger than Mr. Buu? We know that this would make both him and (possibly) Lavenda stronger than drugged Basil; now, notwithstanding that it would need some added conditions (like Gohan training off-screen, since this would probably go against Trunks' statements about Gohan ki being at a level most likely below his Cell saga self) I think there's the usual headscratcher: Base Gohan would get in the billions - x times exponentially stronger than ever - through (not) training, training with Piccolo in the woods for six months or training alone? And then he still talks about being disappointed with his power? Something seems off.
@Hero: Gohan was affected by the poison after a couple of blows. We don't really have much to go with since the poison made his body rot; regardless, if you rewatch (anime) East Kaioshin vs. Fat Buu and Lavenda vs. Good Buu, I'd say most would agree that East Kaioshin has arguably better feats than pre-drug Lavenda since he survives multiple hits from a stronger Buu who was ordered to kill (instead, of, y'know, playing and then fighting with a weaker Buu who is at most in the 40% range of his former power). Again, Kaioshin wasn't able to hurt Fat Buu at all, but stress on the part that Lavenda's serious hits made Good Buu laugh and/or really didn't hurt him as well.
