Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[VegetaSSJBlue]

It already has for me.

How? It disproves the "2-base misconception" if anything, by proving base gohan is easily on the same level as buu.


It makes the chain pretty clear:

SS Goku >> SS Gohan > Base goku >> Poisoned SS Gohan > Base gohan > Lavender >= Buu >= Poisoned Base gohan > Basil with steriods >= M vegeta >= Buff basil >>> Dabura >= Perfect cell

So

Base goku is significantly stronger than buu but nowhere near SSG level.

Because this exists:



And this:

2 base theory/Retcon theory is real.

[emperior]

Goku - 250,000,000
SSJ - 12,500,000,000

Ultimate Power - 3,000,000,000
SSJ (Ultimate Power) - 15,000,000,000

Majin Buu - 6,000,000,000

Basil - 2,000,000,000
Power-Up - 4,000,000,000

Lavenda - 2,500,000,0000

(They are a continuation of my DBS PL list which is in my signature)
Could these power-levels work? The theory is that Gohan is indeed in his ultimate state (fully outlined eyes), but he can't draw out its full power yet so he uses SSJ as a means to access some of that potential. By this numbers, it would also explain their sparring some episodes ago.
Gohan would obviously lose some of his power because of the eyesight lost and the poison spreading throughout is body.

[ZombieVito]

Goku - 250,000,000
SSJ - 12,500,000,000

Ultimate Power - 3,000,000,000
SSJ (Ultimate Power) - 15,000,000,000

Majin Buu - 6,000,000,000

Basil - 2,000,000,000
Power-Up - 4,000,000,000

Lavenda - 2,500,000,0000

(They are a continuation of my DBS PL list which is in my signature)
Could these power-levels work? The theory is that Gohan is indeed in his ultimate state (fully outlined eyes), but he can't draw out its full power yet so he uses SSJ as a means to access some of that potential. By this numbers, it would also explain their sparring some episodes ago.
Gohan would obviously lose some of his power because of the eyesight lost and the poison spreading throughout is body.

Nope. Base Saiyans without god ki are stronger or on par with Piccolo.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Goku - 250,000,000
SSJ - 12,500,000,000

Ultimate Power - 3,000,000,000
SSJ (Ultimate Power) - 15,000,000,000

Majin Buu - 6,000,000,000

Basil - 2,000,000,000
Power-Up - 4,000,000,000

Lavenda - 2,500,000,0000

(They are a continuation of my DBS PL list which is in my signature)
Could these power-levels work? The theory is that Gohan is indeed in his ultimate state (fully outlined eyes), but he can't draw out its full power yet so he uses SSJ as a means to access some of that potential. By this numbers, it would also explain their sparring some episodes ago.
Gohan would obviously lose some of his power because of the eyesight lost and the poison spreading throughout is body.

Nope. Base Saiyans without god ki are stronger or on par with Piccolo.

Base Saiyans are jokes to Piccolo, only Gohan is superior since he hasn't completely lost his unlock.

[ZombieVito]

Goku - 250,000,000
SSJ - 12,500,000,000

Ultimate Power - 3,000,000,000
SSJ (Ultimate Power) - 15,000,000,000

Majin Buu - 6,000,000,000

Basil - 2,000,000,000
Power-Up - 4,000,000,000

Lavenda - 2,500,000,0000

(They are a continuation of my DBS PL list which is in my signature)
Could these power-levels work? The theory is that Gohan is indeed in his ultimate state (fully outlined eyes), but he can't draw out its full power yet so he uses SSJ as a means to access some of that potential. By this numbers, it would also explain their sparring some episodes ago.
Gohan would obviously lose some of his power because of the eyesight lost and the poison spreading throughout is body.

Nope. Base Saiyans without god ki are stronger or on par with Piccolo.

Base Saiyans are jokes to Piccolo, only Gohan is superior since he hasn't completely lost his unlock.

Did people skip the U6 arc or something? Episode 47 also implied base Goku without god ki ~ weighted Piccolo.

[emperior]

Nope. Base Saiyans without god ki are stronger or on par with Piccolo.

Base Saiyans are jokes to Piccolo, only Gohan is superior since he hasn't completely lost his unlock.

Did people skip the U6 arc or something? Episode 47 also implied base Goku without god ki ~ weighted Piccolo.

So you're suggesting Goku got 10x stronger since the beginning of Super? It could be, but I prefer to keep him like that. And about ep 47, are you talking about the scene where they're working in Goku's vegetables garden?

[SaiyanSoul]

I really think everyone is just slightly stronger than when they were in the Buu Arc. I would say everyone is stronger but it's marginal at best. I think this applies to the levels that are non God Transformations like SSJ,SSJ2,and SSJ3. I think it was already stated that Goku and Vegeta had already pushed thier bodies to the limit so they couldn't get drastically stronger anymore without learning new methods of training. You also have to take into account when fighters are warming up in different states, and when fighters are rusty and haven't trained like Gohan. I don't consider the copy Vegeta arc to be anything more than passing the time to the next arc, and SSJ3 Gotenks not doing any damage to copy vegeta was a result of him being some weird alien jelly and him not being serious off the get go because he's Gotenks. The only true difference in power is when Goku and Vegeta use god ki (white aura) in their base forms, their power explodes exponentially because they are able to keep their energy from leaking out and then it's multiplied with SSJ. Just my thoughts.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Did people skip the U6 arc or something? Episode 47 also implied base Goku without god ki ~ weighted Piccolo.

Nothing in the U6 arc implies Base Goku > Piccolo and nothing in Episode 47 does either, that lettuce training means nothing.

[ZombieVito]

Base Saiyans are jokes to Piccolo, only Gohan is superior since he hasn't completely lost his unlock.

Did people skip the U6 arc or something? Episode 47 also implied base Goku without god ki ~ weighted Piccolo.

So you're suggesting Goku got 10x stronger since the beginning of Super? It could be, but I prefer to keep him like that. And about ep 47, are you talking about the scene where they're working in Goku's vegetables garden?

No. He was still weaker than Freeza in base at the beginning.

I am referring to that scene. Both had comparable speed and Piccolo was weighted.

Did people skip the U6 arc or something? Episode 47 also implied base Goku without god ki ~ weighted Piccolo.

Nothing in the U6 arc implies Base Goku > Piccolo and nothing in Episode 47 does either, that lettuce training means nothing.

Piccolo asking Frost to revert back to his Assault form for a more fair match says it all.

The lettuce training is a valid comparison since it was a competition but to each their own.

And even discarding these two points we still have base Gohan holding his own against base Goku. Gohan did the same thing with Piccolo in episode 30.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Did people skip the U6 arc or something? Episode 47 also implied base Goku without god ki ~ weighted Piccolo.

Nothing in the U6 arc implies Base Goku > Piccolo and nothing in Episode 47 does either, that lettuce training means nothing.

Piccolo asking Frost to revert back to his Assault form for a more fair match says it all.

The lettuce training is a valid comparison since it was a competition but to each their own.

And even discarding these two points we still have base Gohan holding his own against base Goku. Gohan did the same thing with Piccolo in episode 30.

Piccolo was doing fairly well against final form Frost, if Frost reverted he would get destroyed.

Just because they seemed even in sparring doesn't mean they're actually even, Goku, Gohan and Piccolo seemed even during the 3 year training gap as well.

[Bullza]

I really do think the Base Saiyans being as strong as Piccolo makes sense.

When Piccolo is about to fight Frost he is surprised that he's going to use his Final Form against him as if he expected to just go up against a lesser form.

Would that not imply that Frost is weaker than the trained Frieza who even Super Saiyan Gohan stood no chance against in just his first form? Wouldn't that also fit with Goku telling Frost to train because that's what Frieza did?

In any case. Frost was much stronger than Piccolo but not absurdly so otherwise Piccolo would never have been able to defeat him. He had to use a Special Beam Cannon that was said to go beyond his limits so I'm thinking Frost could be 4-5 times as strong as Piccolo.

Vegeta had to transform to beat him so he can't be enormously more powerful than Piccolo. Vegeta is on par with Goku, Goku now appears to be on par with Gohan and Gohan was on par with Piccolo.

Future Base Trunks would be a tad lower than these and Super Saiyan Kid Trunks was weaker still which means that Piccolo is stronger than the kids and that fits with Piccolo being the second choice after Buu.

[MasterVampire]

This thread is toxic

[TheUltimateNinja]

This thread is toxic

As is the nature of most internet discussions.

[ChiefWamsutta]

This thread is toxic

To be honest, we all here are trying our best to make sense of things. Dragon Ball is a confusing saga power-wise.

I really do think the Base Saiyans being as strong as Piccolo makes sense.

When Piccolo is about to fight Frost he is surprised that he's going to use his Final Form against him as if he expected to just go up against a lesser form.

Would that not imply that Frost is weaker than the trained Frieza who even Super Saiyan Gohan stood no chance against in just his first form? Wouldn't that also fit with Goku telling Frost to train because that's what Frieza did?

In any case. Frost was much stronger than Piccolo but not absurdly so otherwise Piccolo would never have been able to defeat him. He had to use a Special Beam Cannon that was said to go beyond his limits so I'm thinking Frost could be 4-5 times as strong as Piccolo.

Vegeta had to transform to beat him so he can't be enormously more powerful than Piccolo. Vegeta is on par with Goku, Goku now appears to be on par with Gohan and Gohan was on par with Piccolo.

Future Base Trunks would be a tad lower than these and Super Saiyan Kid Trunks was weaker still which means that Piccolo is stronger than the kids and that fits with Piccolo being the second choice after Buu.

I agree with this. I hope this is true.

Vegeta is equal to Goku in Super. We saw that SS Gohan kept up with SS Goku, and they both destroyed the field, hence they were not aware of the power they were using. This means they should have been actually trying. Base Gohan, Base Goku, and Base Vegeta should be around the same, yeah. If Piccolo is around Super Perfect Cell I would also agree. How does this look?

SS Goten < SS Kid Trunks < Base Cabba = Base Future Trunks < Lavender = Basil < Super Perfect Cell = Piccolo = Base Vegeta = Base Gohan = Base Goku < Magetta < Final Form Frost < SS Cabba = SS Future Trunks < Basil (Drugged) < SS Gohan = SS Vegeta = SS Goku < Good Buu << SS2 Future Trunks < Present Zamasu = Future Zamasu < SS2 Goku = SS2 Vegeta = SS2 Gohan < Base Goku Black (In Main Timeline) < SS3 Goku < Ultimate Gohan <<< SSGod Goku << SSB Goku = SSB Vegeta = SSR Goku Black = SSRage Future Trunks

[Bullza]

Here's a new Tier list operating under the recent Base Saiyans ~ Piccolo idea I have. I'm ignoring the Copy Water arc "cuz filler" and I'm going to leave out Frieza because of complications which would also seem to be there in the manga as well.

Zeno Tier

Zeno

God Tier

Grand Priest
Vados
Whis
Beerus
Champa

Fusion Tier

Spirit Trunks
Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
Merged Zamasu
Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken

Super Saiyan God Tier

Super Saiyan Rose Black
Super Saiyan Blue Goku/Vegeta/Trunks
Hit
Golden Frieza
Super Saiyan God Goku

Super Saiyan 2/3 Tier

Base Black (Possibly higher)
Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Goku/Vegeta
Zamasu
Super Saiyan 2 Trunks (At first)

Super Saiyan Tier

Super Saiyan Goku/Vegeta/Gohan
Super Saiyan Cabba
Magetta
Super Saiyan Trunks (At first)
Final Form Frost

That inbetween Tier

Buu
Super Basil
Super Perfect Cell

Base Tier

Base Goku/Vegeta/Gohan/Piccolo
Basil/Lavender
Base Cabba
Base Trunks (Before training)
Super Saiyan Goten/Kid Trunks
Tagoma

I've got Buu below the Super Saiyans because if the Base Saiyans are as strong as Piccolo then I don't see Good Buu being over 50 times stronger than Piccolo. This could change but I'll stick with this for now.

No real idea where Trunks is supposed to be after his training. Above Zamasu as he had the upper hand over him and even in the manga he's confident he can beat him. Other that he's very questionable.

[Hugo Boss]

As far as I'm concerned they made it pretty apparent for Lavenda to be weaker than Basil even without the drug on.
As predicted, furthermore, neither visual feats nor statements suggested he was dozens of times stronger than the younger brother either. Everything made him look like the standard "cheap" fighter who needed to rely on tricks to get an edge.

Exactly. There is nothing to suggest Lavender is more powerful than Basil. Perhaps he is just more dangerous.

After all, Gohan tied with Lavender while Boo defeated a powered-up version of Basil, so I think it's pretty obvious Boo is the strongest among them.

[RandomGuy96]

Guys, it's really quite simple:

SS Gohan ~ SS Goku >>>>> final form Frost > base Goku >> fourth form Freeza >>> first form Freeza >> SS Gohan

[TheUltimateNinja]

Guys, it's really quite simple:

SS Gohan ~ SS Goku >>>>> final form Frost > base Goku >> fourth form Freeza >>> first form Freeza >> SS Gohan

This is why people are considering either two bases or a retcon.

[apex_pretador]

How? It disproves the "2-base misconception" if anything, by proving base gohan is easily on the same level as buu.


It makes the chain pretty clear:

SS Goku >> SS Gohan > Base goku >> Poisoned SS Gohan > Base gohan > Lavender >= Buu >= Poisoned Base gohan > Basil with steriods >= M vegeta >= Buff basil >>> Dabura >= Perfect cell

So

Base goku is significantly stronger than buu but nowhere near SSG level.

Because this exists:

VEGETA STOMPED SS3 GOTENKS
And this:

GOHAN PUT UP A FIGHT AGAINST GOKU

How does this prove anything?
1. You are ignoring the difference of mentalities. It is entirely possible that goku could've treated Gohan as the same level of fodder or even worse.
2. Gohan is stronger than you think. It is heavily implied that he is at his strongest ever, and his base is implied to be above mr buu by his basil fight.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Because this exists:

VEGETA STOMPED SS3 GOTENKS
And this:

GOHAN PUT UP A FIGHT AGAINST GOKU

How does this prove anything?
1. You are ignoring the difference of mentalities. It is entirely possible that goku could've treated Gohan as the same level of fodder or even worse.
2. Gohan is stronger than you think. It is heavily implied that he is at his strongest ever, and his base is implied to be above mr buu by his basil fight.

Even if Gohan somehow regained the same strength he had in his Ultimate state, which he clearly hasn't, Goku should easily annihilate him in base, the fact that he had some difficulty with him even in SSJ shows that he's not as strong as we think.