The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Bardock was on Vegeta for at least one month. Plenty of time to get prompted

There is that as well.

[Kamiccolo9]

But after saying that, Vegeta still referred to him as a low-class.

Because the whole system was defunct at that point, just like Vegeta had stuck as a prince. Goku was implied to be far above the low-class level, but remained a low-class for life because he was never promoted. On the other hand, Bardock was implied to be within the low-class level, not that he never got a chance to get a promotion.

You don't seem to understand. I don't care about "implications." If Toriyama has said, flat-out, that Bardock cannot be at 10 thousand, then, by all means, provide that quote. But if I am going to discount something I've kept in my personal canon for years, then I'm going to need more than vague implications. I need a flat-out contradiction between what Toriyama says, and what's shown in the special. And, from what I've seen, that doesn't exist.

Bardock was on Vegeta for at least one month. Plenty of time to get prompted

You don't know that. We know practically nothing about how the Saiyan class system works, how much time it took to advance, what the requirements for advancing were, etc. We're all hip-deep in theories right now, so no one is "right" or "wrong" in this situation.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

You don't seem to understand. I don't care about "implications." If Toriyama has said, flat-out, that Bardock cannot be at 10 thousand, then, by all means, provide that quote.

Checking the statement again, it doesn't seem to be an implication, Toriyama makes it clear that Bardock's battle power can't be at 10.000, except if Nappa is above 10.000, which he isn't.

About how high was Bardock’s battle power, ultimately? (In Episode of Bardock) Also, if he hadn’t been defeated by Freeza and had continued his growth, about how strong would he have gotten?
To be honest, I haven’t thought it through that far, but Bardock is a low-class warrior. Although even saying that, almost all [Saiyans] were low-class warriors, and there were only about 10 mid-class warriors. And when you get to the elite warriors, there’s only King Vegeta and Prince Vegeta. Bardock is in the upper ranks as far as low-class warriors go, but he isn’t able to become a mid-class warrior.

But if I am going to discount something I've kept in my personal canon for years, then I'm going to need more than vague implications.

... you have heard of Dragon Ball Minus & Jaco The Galactic Patrolman, right?

[Kamiccolo9]

You don't seem to understand. I don't care about "implications." If Toriyama has said, flat-out, that Bardock cannot be at 10 thousand, then, by all means, provide that quote.

Checking the statement again, it doesn't seem to be an implication, Toriyama makes it clear that Bardock's battle power can't be at 10.000, except if Nappa is above 10.000, which he isn't.

About how high was Bardock’s battle power, ultimately? (In Episode of Bardock) Also, if he hadn’t been defeated by Freeza and had continued his growth, about how strong would he have gotten?
To be honest, I haven’t thought it through that far, but Bardock is a low-class warrior. Although even saying that, almost all [Saiyans] were low-class warriors, and there were only about 10 mid-class warriors. And when you get to the elite warriors, there’s only King Vegeta and Prince Vegeta. Bardock is in the upper ranks as far as low-class warriors go, but he isn’t able to become a mid-class warrior.

But if I am going to discount something I've kept in my personal canon for years, then I'm going to need more than vague implications.

... you have heard of Dragon Ball Minus & Jaco The Galactic Patrolman, right?

That quote says that Nappa is not an elite. The manga says he is. So there's a contradiction right there.

It doesn't say why Bardock cannot be a mid-class warrior. And seeing as in EoB, he became a SSJ, that would contradict Toriyama's statement as well, assuming it was based purely on strength.

I have heard of them. And I have yet to see anything that forces me to expunge the entirety of the Bardock special, just because of a few minor contradictions that are no worse than those that exist in the manga or BoG.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

That quote says that Nappa is not an elite. The manga says he is. So there's a contradiction right there.

The manga has 3 classes, low-class (Bardock, Raditz, Goku), elite (Nappa), and super-elite (Vegeta, presumably King Vegeta). Toriyama here gives low-class (Bardock & most Saiyans), mid-class (around 10 Saiyans), and elite (Vegeta & King Vegeta). So, either Vegeta promoted Nappa after the destruction of Planet Vegeta, or mid-class=elite(manga), and elite(interview)=super-elite.

It doesn't say why Bardock cannot be a mid-class warrior.

The question was about his battle power, so it must mean that he cannot be a mid-class warrior because his battle power isn't high enough.

And seeing as in EoB, he became a SSJ, that would contradict Toriyama's statement as well, assuming it was based purely on strength.

Super Saiyan requires power above the standard level, among other things. Bardock was stronger than most of the low-class warriors, so he was above his standard level.

I have heard of them. And I have yet to see anything that forces me to expunge the entirety of the Bardock special, just because of a few minor contradictions that are no worse than those that exist in the manga or BoG.

Actually, they don't have minor contradictions, they (particularly DB-, which ties-in with Jaco & BoG) shoot the TV Special with a bazooka. According to DB-...

Spoiler:

... Planet Vegeta is destroyed 3 years after Goku's birth, Freeza gathers all the Saiyans to Planet Vegeta so that he can wipe them out one month later, when everyone will have arrived, Vegeta (who has the same hairstyle he has in the manga, not the one in the special) isn't spared by Freeza, but he disobeys the order to go back along with Raditz (and presumably Nappa), and Bardock actually loves Goku without hiding it, and saves him by secretly sending him to Earth so that he can be saved, because he suspects what Freeza plots.

[Kamiccolo9]

That quote says that Nappa is not an elite. The manga says he is. So there's a contradiction right there.

The manga has 3 classes, low-class (Bardock, Raditz, Goku), elite (Nappa), and super-elite (Vegeta, presumably King Vegeta). Toriyama here gives low-class (Bardock & most Saiyans), mid-class (around 10 Saiyans), and elite (Vegeta & King Vegeta). So, either Vegeta promoted Nappa after the destruction of Planet Vegeta, or mid-class=elite(manga), and elite(interview)=super-elite.

It doesn't say why Bardock cannot be a mid-class warrior.

The question was about his battle power, so it must mean that he cannot be a mid-class warrior because his battle power isn't high enough.

And seeing as in EoB, he became a SSJ, that would contradict Toriyama's statement as well, assuming it was based purely on strength.

Super Saiyan requires power above the standard level, among other things. Bardock was stronger than most of the low-class warriors, so he was above his standard level.

I have heard of them. And I have yet to see anything that forces me to expunge the entirety of the Bardock special, just because of a few minor contradictions that are no worse than those that exist in the manga or BoG.

Actually, they don't have minor contradictions, they (particularly DB-, which ties-in with Jaco & BoG) shoot the TV Special with a bazooka. According to DB-...

Spoiler:

... Planet Vegeta is destroyed 3 years after Goku's birth, Freeza gathers all the Saiyans to Planet Vegeta so that he can wipe them out one month later, when everyone will have arrived, Vegeta (who has the same hairstyle he has in the manga, not the one in the special) isn't spared by Freeza, but he disobeys the order to go back along with Raditz (and presumably Nappa), and Bardock actually loves Goku without hiding it, and saves him by secretly sending him to Earth so that he can be saved, because he suspects what Freeza plots.

So, what you're saying is that the interview says one thing, and the manga says another. So... there's a contradiction. And yet, you can twist it so that it fits with your view, but I can't do the same for mine? Seems legit.

The question started out about battle power, but Toriyama changes the subject to Saiyan classes. He's notorious for getting off track; I don't see why this is a problem. And, again, if power is the only reason, then Goku wouldn't have been a low-class Saiyan.

If all it took to become a Super Saiyan was anger and power greater than a low class Saiyan, then Vegeta would have become one against Goku on Earth. Hell, Nappa might have done the same thing.

You left out the part of DB- where there is essentially a month where we have no idea what happens. The general events of the special could easily take place during that month. The only blatant contradiction I see is Goku, and I have no problem handwaiving that, as the continuity of the franchise is nowhere near perfect anyway.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So, what you're saying is that the interview says one thing, and the manga says another. So... there's a contradiction. And yet, you can twist it so that it fits with your view, but I can't do the same for mine? Seems legit.

The question started out about battle power, but Toriyama changes the subject to Saiyan classes. He's notorious for getting off track; I don't see why this is a problem. And, again, if power is the only reason, then Goku wouldn't have been a low-class Saiyan.

Well yeah, it is a contradiction. But what you are saying is different. Toriyama didn't change the subject, he keeps talking about Saiyan classes & battle powers up until the end.

If all it took to become a Super Saiyan was anger and power greater than a low class Saiyan, then Vegeta would have become one against Goku on Earth. Hell, Nappa might have done the same thing.

The requirements are high BP, tranquil heart, extreme danger, and intense anger. Vegeta & Nappa didn't have a tranquil heart, they were evil. And yeah, Vegeta was still evil when he transformed, and says that he transformed because he had a tranquil & pure evil heart, but he transformed after he had sex with Bulma, whom he later married, so maybe he had started developing feelings for her, which helped him to meet the "tranquil heart" requirement. Plus, he didn't have any evil ambitions at that point.

You left out the part of DB- where there is essentially a month where we have no idea what happens.

We know that Bardock was stuck on the planet during that month.

[Kamiccolo9]

So, what you're saying is that the interview says one thing, and the manga says another. So... there's a contradiction. And yet, you can twist it so that it fits with your view, but I can't do the same for mine? Seems legit.

The question started out about battle power, but Toriyama changes the subject to Saiyan classes. He's notorious for getting off track; I don't see why this is a problem. And, again, if power is the only reason, then Goku wouldn't have been a low-class Saiyan.

Well yeah, it is a contradiction. But what you are saying is different. Toriyama didn't change the subject, he keeps talking about Saiyan classes & battle powers up until the end.

If all it took to become a Super Saiyan was anger and power greater than a low class Saiyan, then Vegeta would have become one against Goku on Earth. Hell, Nappa might have done the same thing.

The requirements are high BP, tranquil heart, extreme danger, and intense anger. Vegeta & Nappa didn't have a tranquil heart, they were evil. And yeah, Vegeta was still evil when he transformed, and says that he transformed because he had a tranquil & pure evil heart, but he transformed after he had sex with Bulma, whom he later married, so maybe he had started developing feelings for her, which helped him to meet the "tranquil heart" requirement. Plus, he didn't have any evil ambitions at that point.

You left out the part of DB- where there is essentially a month where we have no idea what happens.

We know that Bardock was stuck on the planet during that month.

So, if there is already a contradiction within the interview, then why should I have to accept it?
And he never says that class is dictated entirely by strength. That is your interpretation of it.

As for the Super Saiyan conditions, that's you theorizing again; none of that is stated in the manga. Which is just fine, but you can't use that as factual evidence. If Vegeta was "pure evil" in the Android Arc, as he said, then would he not have been "Pure Evil" in the Saiyan Arc? As for him developing feelings for Bulma, there wasn't apparently much concern when Gero blew up her car.

It says that Bardock returned to planet Vegeta. From what I saw, it never said that he remained there the entire month.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

And he never says that class is dictated entirely by strength. That is your interpretation of it.

No, he does say that:

This rank is determined by an innate latent battle power, but naturally, if their battle power rises greatly afterward, they can be promoted.

As for the Super Saiyan conditions, that's you theorizing again; none of that is stated in the manga.

I'm not theorizing, they are coming from guidebooks like Daizenshuu #7 & GT Perfect Files #1.

If Vegeta was "pure evil" in the Android Arc, as he said, then would he not have been "Pure Evil" in the Saiyan Arc?

He was stated to be pure evil in Saiyan arc. But I doubt that he was in the AH arc.

As for him developing feelings for Bulma, there wasn't apparently much concern when Gero blew up her car.

Didn't we later learn that Vegeta had guessed who Trunks was, so he didn't do anything because he knew that Trunks would have saved them?

It says that Bardock returned to planet Vegeta. From what I saw, it never said that he remained there the entire month.

The order was all the Saiyans to return to Planet Vegeta, so that Freeza can blow up the planet along with all of them. If Freeza wants to gather them all in one place within a month, he wouldn't allow those who have arrived to leave. Gine even told Bardock that they should leave together with Goku, and Bardock says that if they can't leave because they would find them immediately.

[RandomGuy96]

Yamcha vs the four remaining Cultivars

No suicide bombing.

[TheGmGoken]

Yamcha vs the four remaining Cultivars

No suicide bombing.

He uses Sokidan and hit Allie 4 Sabaimen(Cultivar is a ugly name)

[Kid Buu]

Tenshinhan Vs Goku

This is filler Tenshinhan who just beat Burter and Jeice, and Goku who just arrived on Namek. No Kaioken allowed here either.

Goku didn't need Kaioken to beat Ginyu Force. Goku still wins.

Ten still beat Buter/Jeice while he mulitformed, so he must be over double their strength. Goku's at 90,000 when he arrives on Namek, so without Kaioken he must be around Ten's level.

[RandomGuy96]

I don't think Yamcha would stand a chance against all four Cultivars. He wasn't much stronger than them. I think even two would probably be enough.

Ten vs Goku: equals. More or less a reenactment of the 22nd Budokai, except no tournament rules, so Ten eventually loses.

[Kid Buu]

Is he fighting them 1 by 1 or all at the same time?

Eh, he might win if its the form, but he'll for sure lose the latter.

[dbzfan7]

How powerful would an Oob Kaio-ken X20 be, and a Majoob Kaio-Ken X20?

[RandomGuy96]

It depends on how strong Uub is supposed to get in general, and whether or not his human body can even handle a KK x20.

Super Uub would eviscerate SS4 Goku if he were allowed KK x20, but would get stomped by Syn Shenron and post-absorptions Super 17.

[Kid Buu]

Just for fun trying to work-out a 21st Budokai tier list.

Krillin Vs Ran Fan
Yamcha (without a nose) Vs Bacterian

I thought Ran Fan was pretty weak, but I reread the whole arc. Giran and Nam can actually fight Goku, the same Goku who thrashed Krillin while training. Ram Fan actually gets some decent damage on Nam, so she might be stronger than I thought.

[dbzfan7]

It depends on how strong Uub is supposed to get in general, and whether or not his human body can even handle a KK x20.

Super Uub would eviscerate SS4 Goku if he were allowed KK x20, but would get stomped by Syn Shenron and post-absorptions Super 17.

Well let's say he's Kid Boo level as that's his potential, and let's say he can use KKX20.

So then he'd be weaker than Beyond limits SSJ4 Goku and SSJ4 Vegeta?

[RandomGuy96]

It depends on how strong Uub is supposed to get in general, and whether or not his human body can even handle a KK x20.

Super Uub would eviscerate SS4 Goku if he were allowed KK x20, but would get stomped by Syn Shenron and post-absorptions Super 17.

Well let's say he's Kid Boo level as that's his potential, and let's say he can use KKX20.

So then he'd be weaker than Beyond limits SSJ4 Goku and SSJ4 Vegeta?

Okay. Strongest being in the universe at the time of doing that, then.

Yep. Regular SS4 Baby Goku was already way stronger than Super Uub, and base Syn Shenron is well over ten times stronger than regular SS4 Shadow Dragons Goku.

[Saiga]

Yamcha vs the four remaining Cultivars

No suicide bombing.

Yamcha loses quite badly. I agree with your assessment that two would be enough.