Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

Base Gohan was stronger than Piccolo in RoF, though still much weaker than Freeza even as Super Saiyan. Later the two of them train for what I think was eight months, and seem to have made crazy gains as Piccolo is at least in the same order of magnitude of power as Base Goku and Vegeta, and base Gohan was fighting on par with him, and was training himself ever since then.

Now I think the simplest explanation - one that doesn't involve "two bases," or retcons, or just outright ignoring stuff - is to take it for what it is, and accept that Gohan and Piccolo just increased in power a lot since RoF arc. I think a lot of people are balking at it because that would mean some truly crazy gains for no adequately explained reason, but I think that at this point we should just accept that Super is just a lot more generous with power increases that Z ever was. There's no in-universe reason for that, it's just how the series is written now.

With that said I would put the power scale somewhere like:


Base Goku>>Ultimate Gohan>=Current Base Gohan>ss3 Gotenks>= Current Piccolo> Super buu > ss2 gotenks > ss gohan (rof) > ss gotenks > buu >Base Gohan (rof)>Piccolo (rof)

It's not perfect, or free of contradictions, but I don't think we can make one at this point without outright ignoring stuff that's inconvenient to our vision.

I wouldn't have any problem with Piccolo getting way stronger than he was in Dragon Ball Z, even if he trained for a day. I just don't see how he can become so strong and none stating it. This isn't the kind of thing it's implied without exposition.

[DBZ Macky]

Is Gohan really stronger than ever?
I don't agree at all with this video, and I'd like to hear other's opinions on this.
I'm kind of a "fan" of this guy, but this video seems really... awkwardly wrong?

If I'm not mistaken, Herms already debunked the Tagoma = Ultimate Gohan stuff, right?
Could I get a link or the quote please?

EDIT: Found it!

Ok so the sub I watch which are very accurate. Gohan said this about Togoma before Ginyu body change, "I'm sure he's hiding power comparable to what I had in my prime."

It's not "prime" in the sense of the strongest he's ever been in his entire life, but more like "peak condition", in the sense of his current personal best, when he isn't tired/wounded/etc.

[LowRyder2005]

This is probably more of a matter of looking at the original wording than anything, I'd say; obviously translations varied, but if I remember correctly it was pointed out almost immediately that a better translation fell somewhere along the line of "our power would be comparable if I was in top shape = not battered and tired". I think Bullza some pages ago had found Herms' comment, so you may want to ask him.

But here's the thing. You wouldn't even need a re-translation for that: I mean, not even "to me at my best" would be enough to warrant a clear reference to Ultimate Gohan. If anything, quite a lot of people would argue it was already disproved when Gohan went Super Saiyan and won (there is official material, per se, stating that the Chou state gives power "far superior to that of a Super Saiyan 3" and that Ultimate Gohan has "no need to go Super Saiyan"; in short, the two states would apparently not stack on each other and Ultimate should normally be stronger than the other regular Super Saiyan forms of the original manga). I get it: it's mostly a byproduct of people trying to rationalize Gohan doing better than Piccolo in base, but TOEI left us with plenty of similar "outliers" - in the eyes of most of the fanbase, at least - in Super/ Z/ GT/ movies.

[ssbgoku]

There is just one conclusion people pulled of in rof with which I can not agree based on hints and what happened.

I am talking about first form frieza being above ss gohan back then. Just let look at facts which supports first form frieza > ss gohan:

- gohan getting serious and wanting to hold off frieza in first form believing he can
- everyone being scared feeling ki comming from approaching them frieeza.

Facts and hints supporting rof ss gohan > first form frieza:

- Even after feeling frieza ki krillin assure himself and everyone it is ok as long as they have buu with them. Good buu > supressed firs6 form frieza.

- Everyone is letting down when gohan mentions no keeping up with training and even then gohan believe he can hold off frieza.

- Ss gohan having trouble to stay in ss while golden ftieza had same issue would be one of main points of rof. "No matter how strong you are if you can not maintain it for long enough you are screwed. "

- ss gotenks felt confident about taking on supressed most likely first form frieza. Gotenks picked up his interest too.

- frieza got enraged and worried a bit when ss gohan beats ginyuu tagoma

- frieza using sneaking laser beam to attack rusty gohan was struggling to stay ss so he could know wasting his energy attacking frieza wouldnt do any good as frieza has 3 forms more !

- enraged ss gohan call for help supressed any power up from first form frieza and goku didnt comment anything until frieza reached final form

- goku calling buu crazy strong while enraged even although before u6.

- goku being not happt abouy buu not taking part in tournament. Possible hints good buu ~ first form frost.

So please tell me guys why are you stubborn to say first form frieza was stronger not even mentioning some believe him to vastly supperior...

Very good points, but I believe what Goku needed to reach Earth was a spike in power, or maybe, just maybe, when Gohan powered up to call Goku, he reached a level close to SSJ2, so definitely stronger than 1st form Freezer.
By the way I have 1st form Freezer at 1.3 bilion. The movie said he would reach 1.3 milion but that's obviously wrong in every possible way.

As for SSJ Gohan, he would be 1 bil with Piccolo at 950 mil.

Thanks buddy . I am glad you see logic and facts in my post. Well could be too, but I don't see 1st form frieeza any higher then good buu as Krillin comment about abscense of buu in rof.

[Bullza]

Tricks wouldn't even work if he was that much weaker though, you'd see something like Tenshinhan's 'fight' with Nappa where the stronger fighter simply rushes and one-shots the weaker fighter while they can't do jack about it.

Piccolo did emphasis his battle smarts during the fight though and being as how Frost doesn't train he might not be battle experienced or smart like even Nappa.

They can't be that far apart but they have to be far enough apart that Piccolo decided that a super charged Special Beam Cannon from the start was his only option.

I swear in the anime she said something like "Frost is our best hand to hand fighter".

I thought that was said somewhere too. In the manga they say strongest warrior in the Viz release. I checked the anime to see a similar line and I couldn't find one though.

In any case, Cabba clearly didn't know Frost could transform, yet considered him the undisputed Emperor of the Universe anyway. Should this then mean 1st form Frost > Cabba?

It would depend if he'd mean that just because he was the Emperor he was the strongest. I don't think it'd make sense for him to be stronger than Cabba in his First From if Cabba is as strong as Vegeta and he's as strong as Goku and they implied he wasnt fighting that seriously against Frost even when he was in his Third Form.

Going by the manga though I would say First From Frost > Botamo.

[LowRyder2005]

I'm fairly certain the idea came out in a couple of posts from some hundreds of pages ago. Cabba was surprised that Frost could transform and I think Cabba himself said Frost was their best hand-to-hand fighter before the transformations happened, to boot.

In short - if my memory serves me well - it would mean "Super Saiyan Cabba >=< Final Form Frost > First Form Frost > Base Cabba". Pretty insightful, although it would most likely end up clashing with Vegeta's comment about Cabba being his equal (or not, since he still belittles the guy afterwards? It's up to you, I guess).

[Simere]

I'm fairly certain the idea came out in a couple of posts from some hundreds of pages ago. Cabba was surprised that Frost could transform and I think Cabba himself said Frost was their best hand-to-hand fighter before the transformations happened, to boot.

In short - if my memory serves me well - it would mean "Super Saiyan Cabba >=< Final Form Frost > First Form Frost > Base Cabba". Pretty insightful, although it would most likely end up clashing with Vegeta's comment about Cabba being his equal (or not, since he still belittles the guy afterwards? It's up to you, I guess).

What's >=<?

[TheUltimateNinja]

I'm fairly certain the idea came out in a couple of posts from some hundreds of pages ago. Cabba was surprised that Frost could transform and I think Cabba himself said Frost was their best hand-to-hand fighter before the transformations happened, to boot.

In short - if my memory serves me well - it would mean "Super Saiyan Cabba >=< Final Form Frost > First Form Frost > Base Cabba". Pretty insightful, although it would most likely end up clashing with Vegeta's comment about Cabba being his equal (or not, since he still belittles the guy afterwards? It's up to you, I guess).

What's >=<?

It means he's uncertain which one is stronger, but they're around the same level.

[The gr]

Is Gohan really stronger than ever?
I don't agree at all with this video, and I'd like to hear other's opinions on this.
I'm kind of a "fan" of this guy, but this video seems really... awkwardly wrong?

If I'm not mistaken, Herms already debunked the Tagoma = Ultimate Gohan stuff, right?
Could I get a link or the quote please?

EDIT: Found it!

Ok so the sub I watch which are very accurate. Gohan said this about Togoma before Ginyu body change, "I'm sure he's hiding power comparable to what I had in my prime."

It's not "prime" in the sense of the strongest he's ever been in his entire life, but more like "peak condition", in the sense of his current personal best, when he isn't tired/wounded/etc.

I agree with you, that video had way to much headcanons,I like seth and all,but this video is weak, but seriously how strong is lavenda and Gohan,is really hard to determine their strength,I mean is easy to determine how strong is basi, but lavenda and Gohan man this is hard,I want an answer here

[Bullza]

I checked both the anime and the manga and in the anime the only comment I could see that Cabba makes about Frost is how he's a hero and he'd fought alongside him before. That was when Jaco was accusing him of cheating.

There was no comment from anyone about him being the strongest warrior or the greatest hand to hand fighter in the anime.

In the manga Cabba didn't seem to know he could transform and that's all that was said about him. Vados says he's the strongest warrior. I'm sure I saw that hand to hand comment somewhere, maybe it was a different scanlation?

Vegeta's comment might imply that Base Cabba was weaker than Piccolo which would likewise mean Base Goku and Vegeta would be aswell. That would make sense, they'd be weaker than Piccolo in this saga then by the Universal Survival saga all that extra training they've done compared to Piccolo is what's made them catch up.

So it could potentially go

Any Super Saiyan > Final Form Frost > Piccolo = Current Base Goku > U6 Base Goku = Base Cabba > Assault Form Frost

[VegetaSSJBlue]

Dragon Ball Super list with two-base theory


MULTIPLIERS

Super Saiyan – 50x
Super Saiyan 2 – 100x
Super Saiyan 3 – 250x
Saiyan Beyond God – 10,000x
Super Saiyan God – 12,000x
Super Saiyan Blue – 12,500x


Battle of Gods Arc


[spoiler]Son Goku – 50,000,000
Super Saiyan – 2,500,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 – 5,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 3 – 12,500,000,000
Super Saiyan God – 600,000,000,000

Vegeta – 45,000,000
Super Saiyan – 2,250,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 – 4,500,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 [Enraged] – 45,000,000,000

Son Gohan – 10,000,000,000
Majin Buu – 4,000,000,000
Piccolo – 1,500,000,000
Gotenks – 235,000,000
Android 18 – 180,000,000
Trunks – 24,000,000
Son Goten – 23,000,000
Tenshinhan – 30,000
Kuririn – 10,000
Yamcha – 6,000
Chaozu – 6,000

Beerus – 100,000,000,000,000
Whis – 500,000,000,000,000[/spoiler]


Resurrection of Freezer Arc


[spoiler]Son Goku – 60,000,000
Saiyan Beyond God – 600,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue – 750,000,000,000

Vegeta – 60,000,000
Saiyan Beyond God – 600,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue – 750,000,000,000

Gotenks – 245,000,000
Super Saiyan – 12,250,000,000

Son Gohan – 60,000,000
Super Saiyan – 3,000,000,000

Piccolo – 1,600,000,000
Tenshinhan – 32,000
Kuririn – 10,000
Muten Roshi – 2,500
Jaco – 1,500

Freeza Soldiers – 1,000
Sorbet – 4,000
Shisami – 25,000

Tagoma – 2,000,000,000
Ginyu – 2,500,000,000

Freeza – 10,000,000,000
Final Form – 600,000,000,000
Golden Form – 800,000,000,000[/spoiler]


Champa Tournament Arc


[spoiler]Son Goku – 80,000,000
Super Saiyan – 4,000,000,000
Saiyan Beyond God – 800,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue – 1,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-Ken x10 – 10,000,000,000,000

Vegeta – 80,000,000
Super Saiyan – 4,000,000,000
Saiyan Beyond God – 800,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue – 1,000,000,000,000

Son Gohan – 80,000,000
Super Saiyan – 4,000,000,000

Majin Buu – 4,000,000,000
Piccolo– 2,000,000,000
Monaka – 10

Botamo – 20,000,000

Frost – 40,000,000
Assault Form – 80,000,000
Final Form – 2,800,000,000

Magetta – 3,500,000,000

Cabba – 75,000,000
Super Saiyan – 3,750,000,000

Hit – 1,000,000,000,000

Beerus – 100,000,000,000,000
Champa – 95,000,000,000,000
Whis – 500,000,000,000,000
Vados – 505,000,000,000,000[/spoiler]


Future Trunks Arc


[spoiler]Son Goku – 100,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 – 10,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 3 – 25,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue – 1,250,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue [Enraged] – 1,800,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue [Power Up] – 2,500,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-Ken – 5,000,000,000,000

Vegeta – 100,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue – 1,250,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue [Post Training] – 2,500,000,000,000

Future Trunks– 90,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 – 9,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 [Power Up] – 1,000,000,000,000
Super Trunks – 2,000,000,000,000
Super Trunks [Power Up] – 2,500,000,000,000
Spirit Sword – 25,000,000,000,000

Vegetto – 40,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue – 50,000,000,000,000

Piccolo– 2,500,000,000
Son Gohan – 100,000,000

Zamasu – 8,000,000,000
Future – 800,000,000,000

Black Goku – 20,000,000,000
Present – 10,000,000,000
Full Power – 1,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Rose – 1,500,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Rose [Power Up] – 2,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Rose [Power Up] – 2,500,000,000,000

Merged Zamasu – 4,000,000,000,000
Full Power – 40,000,000,000,000
Giant Form – 20,000,000,000,000

Daishinkan – 1,000,000,000,000,000[/spoiler]


Universal Survival Tournament Arc


[spoiler]Son Goku – 240,000,000
Super Saiyan – 12,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue – 3,000,000,000,000

Vegeta – 240,000,000
Super Saiyan – 12,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue – 3,000,000,000,000

Son Gohan – 240,000,000
Super Saiyan – 12,000,000,000

Majin Buu – 4,000,000,000
Piccolo – 3,000,000,000

Lavenda – 3,000,000,000

Basil – 2,400,000,000
Super Saiyan – 3,600,000,000[/spoiler]

[ZombieVito]

Base Goku (without god ki), Vegeta (without god ki) and Gohan aren't that weak.

[buutenks]

Base Black should be around u6 ssj blue level based on his performance vs ssj blue Vegeta.

[Nejishiki]

I'm sure I saw that hand to hand comment somewhere, maybe it was a different scanlation?

シャンパ：「なんだおまえ！」
シャンパ：「フロストは誇り高い拳闘士だぞ！」
—
Champa: "What the heck is wrong with you?!"
Champa: "Frost is a warrior! He's a man of honor!"

Going by the original diction, Champa claims that Frost is a proud, hand-to-hand combatant. He doesn't specify the quality of his hand-to-hand skill though.

[emperior]

Resurrection of Freezer Arc

[spoiler]Goku
God Ki - 250,000,000,000
SSB - 500,000,000,000

Vegeta
God Ki - 250,000,000,000
SSB - 500,000,000,000

Freezer
1st Form - 1,300,000,000
4th Form - 245,000,000,000
Golden - 735,000,000,000
Exhausted - 370,000,000,000 (Dropping)[/spoiler]

Future Trunks Arc

[spoiler]Future Trunks (Post Training)
Base - 150,000,000
FPSSJ2 - 750,000,000,000
Super Trunks - 1,500,000,000,000

Vegeta
Base - 150,000,000
SSB - 750,000,000,000

Goku
Base - 150,000,000
SSB - 750,000,000,000
SSB (Rage) - 1,250,000,000,000

Vegeta (Rage + Training)
Base - 400,000,000
SSB - 2,000,000,000,000

Black (Goku Boost)
Base Full Power - 750,000,000,000
SSR (Suppressed) - 1,000,000,000,000
SSR (Full Power) - 1,500,000,000,000
SSR (Scythe) - 2,000,000,000,000[/spoiler]

Could these numbers work? Basically, Super Saiyan Blue would multiply Goku and Vegeta's God Ki base x2.
This is way Freezer woud have the same gains he had in DBZ when going from 1st to final form, and it's the only way I can find to explain Goku Black's performance in base against Vegeta, unless I give Rosè have a laughable boost compared to SSJ and SSB.

[Zamasu55]

Base Black should be around u6 ssj blue level based on his performance vs ssj blue Vegeta.

No. He's way stronger than that.

[SansrivaaL]

I still cant understand why people put SSJB Goku so much below SSJB Vegeta (post training)
Yeah he trained, but we saw how both of em were fighting against Black's clones, as well as fused Zamasu, both of em were in the same league when it comes to going 2v1 at him,Goku even got the upper hand against fused Zamasu's giant ki ball, whereas compared to what Trunks SSJR and Vegeta SSJB needed a 2v1 father son galick gun to push one on him, you can say that Goku did push himself too much hence why he couldnt move his hands anymore, same can be said with Vegeta and Trunks, both were down for the count kneeling, Goku was still floating up with charged aura, only his hands got jacked up, not to mention the ki ball that Goku pushed back was way bigger than the one Vegeta and Trunks had to.

[buutenks]

Sadly these last 2 episodes didnt really shed any light on the power scaling. In fact id say they kinda made it worse. We got the weakest Buu stomping basil, then we got Gohan being above Lavenda(who only stood a chance due to poison) and then we got Gohan fighting Goku. Now either Lavenda is leagues above Basil or Goku was holding back 99% of his power when he fought with Gohan(which makes no sense).

See this is what i dont get, r those people at Toei that stupid or what? I mean they make filler stuff with base copy Vegeta stomping ssj3 Gotenks, then they have Gohan and Goku fighting as ssjs...WTF. Just add a comparison to a previous villain so we know where everybody stands. Like Goku says: Nice Gohan, u r much stronger than u were when u fought Buu or hey Gohan u are close to the power u had when u fought Buu. They blew it also in the u6 arc, Goku could have easily made a comparison of Piccolo and a villain from the Buu saga, but no, all Goku says is, u got no chance. And Future Trunks arc, jeez, everybody and they mother keeps saying wow your strong to Trunks, but nobody makes a freaking comparison. its like how are we suppose to tell what your strong means. Is it ssg level strong, is it buu saga level strong, which is it.

Tho one conclusion from these 2 eps i can make is that base saiyans arent ssg level, nor is their ssj level at ssg level.

[SansrivaaL]

Sadly these last 2 episodes didnt really shed any light on the power scaling. In fact id say they kinda made it worse. We got the weakest Buu stomping basil, then we got Gohan being above Lavenda(who only stood a chance due to poison) and then we got Gohan fighting Goku. Now either Lavenda is leagues above Basil or Goku was holding back 99% of his power when he fought with Gohan(which makes no sense).

See this is what i dont get, r those people at Toei that stupid or what? I mean they make filler stuff with base copy Vegeta stomping ssj3 Gotenks, then they have Gohan and Goku fighting as ssjs...WTF. Just add a comparison to a previous villain so we know where everybody stands. Like Goku says: Nice Gohan, u r much stronger than u were when u fought Buu or hey Gohan u are close to the power u had when u fought Buu. They blew it also in the u6 arc, Goku could have easily made a comparison of Piccolo and a villain from the Buu saga, but no, all Goku says is, u got no chance. And Future Trunks arc, jeez, everybody and they mother keeps saying wow your strong to Trunks, but nobody makes a freaking comparison. its like how are we suppose to tell what your strong means. Is it ssg level strong, is it buu saga level strong, which is it.

Tho one conclusion from these 2 eps i can make is that base saiyans arent ssg level, nor is their ssj level at ssg level.

Thats what some of us thinks at least, a retcon musta happened, basically base Goku and SSJ Goku doesnt have God ki, their only form that has God ki is SSJB, anyways I always took it like that, back on Ep 24, Krillin made a comment about "I cant sense Goku's ki anymore" after turning into SSJB, meaning he could sense Goku prior to his new form.
Same can be said in BoG when Goku's SSJG ran out and Goten made a comment about he can sense Goku's ki again, I think Beerus was playin around with Goku since he was lying throughout their whole match, his comment about Goku being able to absorb the God ki was probably his biggest "what if" just because he wanted to answer Goku's question, he was confused with whats going on as well, Goku just brought up that "you're a God arent you? you should know this" which probably forced him to make something up to not look bad.

[ChiefWamsutta]

I truly feel like a Retcon did happen. You can argue that SS Goku was holding back a lot of power when fighting SS Gohan, but they both were not aware that they destroyed the field. Goku had to have been letting loose power.

I think the Base Saiyans = Piccolo model works well; however, it seems like it cannot stand up to four tests:

1) Super Saiyan Goku vs. Beerus in Outer Space (BoG)
2) Monaka-Beerus vs. Base Goku (U6)
3) SS3 Gotenks vs. Base Copy-Vegeta (U6)
4) Base Goku vs. Final Form Frieza (RoF)

I think these are the only outstanding moments. Out-of-universe it is easy to explain the retcon, but in-universe may be more difficult for some overall story consistency since all of Super is canon.

I'd be open to any ideas on this! I personally am starting to believe that since all four tests happened before Goku and Vegeta traveled through time the effects of time travel may have altered their power. Whis did say that non-Kaioshin gods are not supposed to time travel.