Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Something is different from before if he's gone from being that strong in Base they can just shrug off SSJ3 Gotenks attacks to fighting on par with SSJ Gohan. And this appears to be a Gohan who is weaker than the Ultimate Gohan of old.

Did Toei realise their mistake when they saw that Goku was roughly comparable to Trunks? Surely they know it wouldn't make sense for Trunks to be that strong especially when they showed he had trouble with Dabura.

Maybe that was when they changed things.

So I don't know how you would explain it In Universe because any retcon looks like it would have happened between the time he fought Copy Vegeta and Trunks and nothing really happened in between as very little time passed.

[SansrivaaL]

It'll be really hard to make sense out of all this whether you're into the 2 base theory or not, but in my mind they all set this up from the start, BoG movie yeah AT went with the "Goku absorbed the God ki in his base form" so we all took it that the same will happen in the BoG arc anime form, but there were hints that he hasnt absorbed it.
Movie ver didnt have anyone comment that they can sense Goku's ki again (the only reason they knew was that Goku got blond hair again) after the God mode ran out, anime had Goten and the others notice his ki is back. Movie had Beerus literally explain like he knew what happened, he wasnt confused at all and said that Goku absorbed it, the anime changed that and made Beerus surprised at whats happening, later even said "Dont ask me" since it also took him by surprise. This is a hunch but I'm going with the God form gave Goku a lil boost to stand up against Beerus for a good amount of time.

[LowRyder2005]

Something I'm trying to wrap my head around as well is a - albeit weak - gut feeling that a good deal of the inconsistency may stem from the Toriyama/TOEI/Toyotaro dynamic.

I think there's a fair chance, or at least some room for a theory, that they actually stopped putting emphasis on the strength of Goku's and Vegeta's base forms the moment Super Saiyan God reappeared in the manga as a level of power far more massive than the base forms and Super Saiyan 3. It's clear that Toriyama is pretty involved with the manga, I'd dare say it's probable he had less involvement with the "filler" ("minor" or "mini" would be more appropriate, of course) arcs in the anime. He may have settled quietly for Toyotaro's approach, with the anime reflecting it. But not even this theory is exempt from possible theoretical disjunctions in the narrative.

[emperior]

I truly feel like a Retcon did happen. You can argue that SS Goku was holding back a lot of power when fighting SS Gohan, but they both were not aware that they destroyed the field. Goku had to have been letting loose power.

I think the Base Saiyans = Piccolo model works well; however, it seems like it cannot stand up to four tests:

1) Super Saiyan Goku vs. Beerus in Outer Space (BoG)
2) Monaka-Beerus vs. Base Goku (U6)
3) SS3 Gotenks vs. Base Copy-Vegeta (U6)
4) Base Goku vs. Final Form Frieza (RoF)

I think these are the only outstanding moments. Out-of-universe it is easy to explain the retcon, but in-universe may be more difficult for some overall story consistency since all of Super is canon.

I'd be open to any ideas on this! I personally am starting to believe that since all four tests happened before Goku and Vegeta traveled through time the effects of time travel may have altered their power. Whis did say that non-Kaioshin gods are not supposed to time travel.

Why would base Saiyans be equal to Piccolo? Unless Piccolo got heavily nerfed.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

There was no retcon. Current Base Goku is around as strong as Super Gohan whom had regained his former power and exceeded it and nothing contradicts it. I don't why people think that Base Goku surpassed his former SSJG level.

[emperior]

About Gohan, it seems like he taps into a lot more power than a normal SSJ when he transforms, and he taps into his "ultimate" form. This would explain his sparring with Goku.

[Shlugo]

I truly feel like a Retcon did happen. You can argue that SS Goku was holding back a lot of power when fighting SS Gohan, but they both were not aware that they destroyed the field. Goku had to have been letting loose power.

I think the Base Saiyans = Piccolo model works well; however, it seems like it cannot stand up to four tests:

1) Super Saiyan Goku vs. Beerus in Outer Space (BoG)
2) Monaka-Beerus vs. Base Goku (U6)
3) SS3 Gotenks vs. Base Copy-Vegeta (U6)
4) Base Goku vs. Final Form Frieza (RoF)

I think these are the only outstanding moments. Out-of-universe it is easy to explain the retcon, but in-universe may be more difficult for some overall story consistency since all of Super is canon.

I'd be open to any ideas on this! I personally am starting to believe that since all four tests happened before Goku and Vegeta traveled through time the effects of time travel may have altered their power. Whis did say that non-Kaioshin gods are not supposed to time travel.

Just accept that Gohan powered-up a shitload after he started training again? Sure, it might seems weird, but I think it's better than the retcon theory, which is no different than saying that everyone is as strong or weak as the writers need them to be at the moment, in which case discerning power levels becomes impossible and we might as well close this thread down.

[ZombieVito]

I truly feel like a Retcon did happen. You can argue that SS Goku was holding back a lot of power when fighting SS Gohan, but they both were not aware that they destroyed the field. Goku had to have been letting loose power.

I think the Base Saiyans = Piccolo model works well; however, it seems like it cannot stand up to four tests:

1) Super Saiyan Goku vs. Beerus in Outer Space (BoG)
2) Monaka-Beerus vs. Base Goku (U6)
3) SS3 Gotenks vs. Base Copy-Vegeta (U6)
4) Base Goku vs. Final Form Frieza (RoF)

I think these are the only outstanding moments. Out-of-universe it is easy to explain the retcon, but in-universe may be more difficult for some overall story consistency since all of Super is canon.

I'd be open to any ideas on this! I personally am starting to believe that since all four tests happened before Goku and Vegeta traveled through time the effects of time travel may have altered their power. Whis did say that non-Kaioshin gods are not supposed to time travel.

1) Goku still had the power of SSG at full force. Once the battle it's over he needs to train under Whis to better control it.
2) Two base theory.
3) Same as above.
4) Same as above.

Easy.

[ChiefWamsutta]

There was no retcon. Current Base Goku is around as strong as Super Gohan whom had regained his former power and exceeded it and nothing contradicts it. I don't why people think that Base Goku surpassed his former SSJG level.

If Gohan is as strong as a Base Goku who is around SSGod level, then Lavender is around that level too. Gohan tried HARD against Lavender. Basil being below Good Buu and Lavender being around SSGod Goku is not correct. There are contradictions.

1) Goku still had the power of SSG at full force. Once the battle it's over he needs to train under Whis to better control it.
2) Two base theory.
3) Same as above.
4) Same as above.

Easy.

Yes, but Goku's "second base" is gone. We have not seen it again, and an in-universe explanation for why it would be gone is difficult to come by.

Just accept that Gohan powered-up a shitload after he started training again? Sure, it might seems weird, but I think it's better than the retcon theory, which is no different than saying that everyone is as strong or weak as the writers need them to be at the moment, in which case discerning power levels becomes impossible and we might as well close this thread down.

Yeah, but then, again, Lavender would be much stronger than Basil, which makes no sense. We have learned that Universe 9 is the weakest of all the universes. Lavender should not be past Ultimate Gohan level if Universe 7 is, on average, stronger than Universe 9.

[dragonballgeek]

It'll be really hard to make sense out of all this whether you're into the 2 base theory or not, but in my mind they all set this up from the start, BoG movie yeah AT went with the "Goku absorbed the God ki in his base form" so we all took it that the same will happen in the BoG arc anime form, but there were hints that he hasnt absorbed it.
Movie ver didnt have anyone comment that they can sense Goku's ki again (the only reason they knew was that Goku got blond hair again) after the God mode ran out, anime had Goten and the others notice his ki is back. Movie had Beerus literally explain like he knew what happened, he wasnt confused at all and said that Goku absorbed it, the anime changed that and made Beerus surprised at whats happening, later even said "Dont ask me" since it also took him by surprise. This is a hunch but I'm going with the God form gave Goku a lil boost to stand up against Beerus for a good amount of time.

I always thought that prior to Beerus arrival, Goku and Vegeta were pretty much at their peak. But this new form helped them get over this plateau and has now opened the doors for more growth.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

There was no retcon. Current Base Goku is around as strong as Super Gohan whom had regained his former power and exceeded it and nothing contradicts it. I don't why people think that Base Goku surpassed his former SSJG level.

If Gohan is as strong as a Base Goku who is around SSGod level, then Lavender is around that level too. Gohan tried HARD against Lavender. Basil being below Good Buu and Lavender being around SSGod Goku is not correct. There are contradictions.

Except Base Goku isn't SSJG level and Basil being below Boo doesn't contradict anything. Current Base Goku is at most, a bit stronger than Boo arc Super Gohan.

[Hugo Boss]

Something I'm trying to wrap my head around as well is a - albeit weak - gut feeling that a good deal of the inconsistency may stem from the Toriyama/TOEI/Toyotaro dynamic.

I think there's a fair chance, or at least some room for a theory, that they actually stopped putting emphasis on the strength of Goku's and Vegeta's base forms the moment Super Saiyan God reappeared in the manga as a level of power far more massive than the base forms and Super Saiyan 3. It's clear that Toriyama is pretty involved with the manga, I'd dare say it's probable he had less involvement with the "filler" ("minor" or "mini" would be more appropriate, of course) arcs in the anime. He may have settled quietly for Toyotaro's approach, with the anime reflecting it. But not even this theory is exempt from possible theoretical disjunctions in the narrative.

My bet. The interaction between the medias and authors is somehow affecting some plot points, like power for example. This gives a great opportunity for several different views on the matter and each person picks what they like the most. That's why this is a so speculative field.

[ChiefWamsutta]

There was no retcon. Current Base Goku is around as strong as Super Gohan whom had regained his former power and exceeded it and nothing contradicts it. I don't why people think that Base Goku surpassed his former SSJG level.

If Gohan is as strong as a Base Goku who is around SSGod level, then Lavender is around that level too. Gohan tried HARD against Lavender. Basil being below Good Buu and Lavender being around SSGod Goku is not correct. There are contradictions.

Except Base Goku isn't SSJG level and Basil being below Boo doesn't contradict anything. Current Base Goku is at most, a bit stronger than Boo arc Super Gohan.

If Base Goku and Base Gohan from this saga are Ultimate Gohan level, then Frost would be around that level. How could Piccolo put up a good enough fight if he is below Super Perfect Cell?

What is Super Saiyan Goku at right now in your opinion?

[Bullza]

The two base theory doesn't make sense. The theory was that Goku and Vegeta had a weak Base form without God Ki and a strong Base form with God Ki.

Now there are people saying the Frieza fight was able to happen because of the two base theory but Goku never had God Ki in that fight in Base form.

There's no way to make this all work unless someone got nerfed and it's either Piccolo or Goku.

[TheUltimateNinja]

The two base theory doesn't make sense. The theory was that Goku and Vegeta had a weak Base form without God Ki and a strong Base form with God Ki.

Now there are people saying the Frieza fight was able to happen because of the two base theory but Goku never had God Ki in that fight in Base form.

There's no way to make this all work unless someone got nerfed and it's either Piccolo or Goku.

Goku didn't have God ki once his SSGod ran out, but he was still just as strong.

[Bullza]

Goku didn't have God ki once his SSGod ran out, but he was still just as strong.

Yeah so the idea that his strenght is actually dependant on God Ki in the first place is flawed thinking because he never got any weaker after losing God Ki. If anything they specifically said he was getting stronger.

God Ki has never been linked to power from what I remember.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Goku didn't have God ki once his SSGod ran out, but he was still just as strong.

Yeah so the idea that his strenght is actually dependant on God Ki in the first place is flawed thinking because he never got any weaker after losing God Ki. If anything they specifically said he was getting stronger.

God Ki has never been linked to power from what I remember.

I suppose the idea is that God ki is just a condensed version of regular ki. At any rate, Goku and Vegeta could just be suppressing 99.9% of their power most of the time.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

If Gohan is as strong as a Base Goku who is around SSGod level, then Lavender is around that level too. Gohan tried HARD against Lavender. Basil being below Good Buu and Lavender being around SSGod Goku is not correct. There are contradictions.

Except Base Goku isn't SSJG level and Basil being below Boo doesn't contradict anything. Current Base Goku is at most, a bit stronger than Boo arc Super Gohan.

If Base Goku and Base Gohan from this saga are Ultimate Gohan level, then Frost would be around that level. How could Piccolo put up a good enough fight if he is below Super Perfect Cell?

What is Super Saiyan Goku at right now in your opinion?

All Piccolo did was stall to charge his amped Special beam cannon. It was made very obvious that he stood no chance against Frost. Current SSJ Goku is a bit over 50x stronger than Boo arc Super Gohan.

[ChiefWamsutta]

All Piccolo did was stall to charge his amped Special beam cannon. It was made very obvious that he stood no chance against Frost. Current SSJ Goku is a bit over 50x stronger than Boo arc Super Gohan.

Okay, so where in range of SSGod Goku is the current SS Goku, in your opinion?

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

All Piccolo did was stall to charge his amped Special beam cannon. It was made very obvious that he stood no chance against Frost. Current SSJ Goku is a bit over 50x stronger than Boo arc Super Gohan.

Okay, so where in range of SSGod Goku is the current SS Goku, in your opinion?

BOG SSJG Goku: 275,000,000,000,000

Universe survival arc Base Goku: 28,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku: 1,425,000,000,000