Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ekrolo2]

You're forgetting the fact Goku can't sense Beerus' power at all which makes his statement about as accurate as me saying Perfect Cell's power level against Gohan was 100% confirmed to be 3.7 billion because.... reasons. The movie has an added layer of Goku potentially making such a grandiose statement so his inflated ego isn't bruised as badly though this isn't a factor for Super admittedly.

Goku is usually a good source to gauge how strong someone is, but the caveat is he can't sense Beerus at all, he's just assuming based on a feat anyone who's Gotenks SSJ2 tier and above could do just as easily to him like Gotenks, Gohan, regular Super Boo, Bootenks and Boohan.

That isn't a necessity. Freeza can't feel ki, but determined 50% of his power would be enough to crush Goku. Perfect Cell was hiding a huge amount of power when he first got formed, but Goku still predicted there to be more, confident that his son(with rage) would be enough.
We know characters can determine unseen power, even better when it's in a fight.

Which leaves us with a question. What makes more sense? Goku guessing Beerus power, after being demolished by him. Or Beerus deciding to use much more than necessary power to defeat him. Remember for Goku to state that, maybe Vegetto wouldn't be be able to win means Beerus used almost 50% of his power, which as we know is impossible.

Freeza also thought 70% would be enough to beat Goku, and what happens? Goku kicks his ass. He thinks 100% will be more than enough, and what happens? Goku kicks his ass again. He thinks Mecha-Freeza is enough, what happens? Goku & Future Trunks, depending on the timeline kick. his. fucking. ass.

Goku trained with Gohan for a whole year in the ROSAT. Now, in the manga we don't know how exactly he comes to know the limits of Gohan's strength but I think the two of them going at it at one point or another resulted in Gohan's power spiking up the levels he probably didn't think were possible. That and he meets with Cell, gets an idea for it his strength then gets another opinion from Korin. Two characters who can SENSE their opponents battle power and gauge it because they can actually get an idea for it is more than Goku guessing how strong Beerus is based on a finger flick from a guy he can't get a feel for. A feat SSJ2 Gotenks and above tier fighters can do to him exactly the same as Beerus.

Why would Goku estimating Beerus to be way too strong for him to beat be him trying to make himself feel better? He hates it when someone is way stronger than him. Also, again, Captain FuckinG Ginyu could estimate Goku's power with near perfect accuracy and he couldn't sense ki.

Goku hates it when people are way stronger than him? Since when? Him always looking for a better opponent is the only reason the guy even bothers to live, with no one to aspire to, he'd just lie down and die. The thing with Goku in the BoG film is that he's arrogant and the battle with Beerus is what brings him down to Earth. He's so deluded he hates the fact he has to rely on others to beat an opponent when that's the only reason he won any fights in the Z era at all. Him lying to himself so his bruised ego can take the hit better is usually what people who live up their own ass do to compensate for when reality gives them a good smack in the face.

Goku's way of thinking in BoG is a lot more in line with Vegeta. He's okay with a strong opponent coming for him but not one who's strong enough to completely stomp him to pieces.

As for Ginyu, he's wrong about his power for being at 85 000 and then Goku proves him even more wrong by using Kaio-Ken. The entire point of that scene, like with any scene concerning scouters is to show just how faulty Freeza and his army are when sensing power.

[LightBing]

Freeza also thought 70% would be enough to beat Goku, and what happens? Goku kicks his ass. He thinks 100% will be more than enough, and what happens? Goku kicks his ass again. He thinks Mecha-Freeza is enough, what happens? Goku & Future Trunks, depending on the timeline kick. his. fucking. ass.

Goku trained with Gohan for a whole year in the ROSAT. Now, in the manga we don't know how exactly he comes to know the limits of Gohan's strength but I think the two of them going at it at one point or another resulted in Gohan's power spiking up the levels he probably didn't think were possible. That and he meets with Cell, gets an idea for it his strength then gets another opinion from Karin. Two characters who can SENSE their opponents battle power and gauge it because they can actually get an idea for it is more than Goku guessing how strong Beerus is based on a finger flick from a guy he can't get a feel for. A feat SSJ2 Gotenks and above tier fighters can do to him exactly the same as Beerus.

Freeza was right regarding his 50%, I honestly don't remember the 70%, and at 100% it made him keep up with Goku, until he started losing power. When he returned as Mecha-Freeza he brought his dad to help him out, in case it was necessary, he wasn't sure he would defeat Goku, confident but not sure.

Karin and Goku cant feel what isn't there, Cell purposely concealed his full power. It's the same as Recoome thinking Goku was only at 5000; he hid his power from them so the scouters couldn't detect it. Not even Kuririn and Gohan, only Vegeta was able to grasp what happened.
We even have the recent case of Kuririn asking for Goku to punch him to accurately detect the gap between them, even if it was played for a cheap joke, the concept is still there. There's various examples... Why is it ridiculous for Goku to make an assessment after fighting Beerus? It's not 100% certain, but we can trust Goku not be saying crap.

This isn't even the main problem for this. Why would Beerus use Vegetto power to defeat Goku? Answering that is necessary, if people want to argue that Goku can't determine anything because Beerus is a God.

[ekrolo2]

Freeza also thought 70% would be enough to beat Goku, and what happens? Goku kicks his ass. He thinks 100% will be more than enough, and what happens? Goku kicks his ass again. He thinks Mecha-Freeza is enough, what happens? Goku & Future Trunks, depending on the timeline kick. his. fucking. ass.

Goku trained with Gohan for a whole year in the ROSAT. Now, in the manga we don't know how exactly he comes to know the limits of Gohan's strength but I think the two of them going at it at one point or another resulted in Gohan's power spiking up the levels he probably didn't think were possible. That and he meets with Cell, gets an idea for it his strength then gets another opinion from Karin. Two characters who can SENSE their opponents battle power and gauge it because they can actually get an idea for it is more than Goku guessing how strong Beerus is based on a finger flick from a guy he can't get a feel for. A feat SSJ2 Gotenks and above tier fighters can do to him exactly the same as Beerus.

Freeza was right regarding his 50%, I honestly don't remember the 70%, and at 100% it made him keep up with Goku, until he started losing power. When he returned as Mecha-Freeza he brought his dad to help him out, in case it was necessary, he wasn't sure he would defeat Goku, confident but not sure.

Karin and Goku cant feel what isn't there, Cell purposely concealed his full power. It's the same as Recoome thinking Goku was only at 5000; he hid his power from them so the scouters couldn't detect it. Not even Kuririn and Gohan, only Vegeta was able to grasp what happened.
We even have the recent case of Kuririn asking for Goku to punch him to accurately detect the gap between them, even if it was played for a cheap joke, the concept is still there. There's various examples... Why is it ridiculous for Goku to make an assessment after fighting Beerus? It's not 100% certain, but we can trust Goku not be saying crap.

This isn't even the main problem for this. Why would Beerus use Vegetto power to defeat Goku? Answering that is necessary, if people want to argue that Goku can't determine anything because Beerus is a God.

Freeza was only right by happenstance, he didn't need that much and only used that amount because he's a sadistic bastard who wanted to scare the crap out of Goku which worked. 70% Freeza is completely smashed by Goku and the only attack Freeza at 100% manages to do anything to Goku is when he manages to fly by a Kamehameha and blast him into the planet. Besides that sucker punch, Goku kicks his ass throughout the duration of the battle. Hell, when after Freeza powers up, he lets Freeza beat him up for a bit and he isn't bothered by it at all.

Cell fought both Vegeta and Trunks, powering up to his bulky form for the latter which Korin could sense from the Lookout, that gives him an idea of what Cell's power is like. As for the Recoome example, that's more like lesser fighters being bewildered by Goku's power and less them guessing it without any Ki sense. I already explained (enough times to make me sick of repeating it) for why Goku can't be trusted for his assessment in BoG or even in Super.

In the movie, his mentality is basically like Vegeta's. He wants a strong opponent, but not one strong enough who can kick his ass plus he can't even grasp what Beerus' power is like all of which makes the film a rare instance in which Goku isn't a reliable source for power information. Super basically has the same thing except he doesn't have the arrogance clouding his judgement as much.

That question precisely shows my point, Goku is just making a wild guess on a guy who's power he can't gauge at all. He can't even get the slightest inkling of it like he can even against concealing opponents or ones purposefully holding back. He has no reason to say such a thing when there are plenty of other characters who can finger flick him out of existence, hell, one and a half of those guys is his own son.

The only reason I can come up with that Goku would even consider Beerus being above Boohan is because everyone says Beerus is the strongest in the universe so he's just assuming Beerus > Boohan which still shouldn't automatically make him think "Yeah, even Vegetto at Super Saiyan 3 is gonna get curb stomped."

[singsing]

Goku hates it when people are way stronger than him? Since when? Him always looking for a better opponent is the only reason the guy even bothers to live, with no one to aspire to, he'd just lie down and die. The thing with Goku in the BoG film is that he's arrogant and the battle with Beerus is what brings him down to Earth. He's so deluded he hates the fact he has to rely on others to beat an opponent when that's the only reason he won any fights in the Z era at all. Him lying to himself so his bruised ego can take the hit better is usually what people who live up their own ass do to compensate for when reality gives them a good smack in the face.

Goku's way of thinking in BoG is a lot more in line with Vegeta. He's okay with a strong opponent coming for him but not one who's strong enough to completely stomp him to pieces.

As for Ginyu, he's wrong about his power for being at 85 000 and then Goku proves him even more wrong by using Kaio-Ken. The entire point of that scene, like with any scene concerning scouters is to show just how faulty Freeza and his army are when sensing power.

Hates as in he would like to get stronger than them asap. Why would he be nursing a bruised ego after meeting a new strong opponent? He'd enjoy having the prospect of catching up, like you said. He has no reason to lie, especially since the closer Beerus is the more possible it is for Goku to be as strong as a god, while if he was so far out of reach that he thinks it's literally impossible to catch up, where's the fun in that?

Ginyu was off by 5k, he can't sense ki at all, and he's someone not nearly as experienced as Beerus or Goku. Like I said, near perfect accuracy. That scene shows how faulty scouters are. Kaioken is an artificial boost in power. Ginyu nearly perfectly judged his base power.

[ekrolo2]

Goku hates it when people are way stronger than him? Since when? Him always looking for a better opponent is the only reason the guy even bothers to live, with no one to aspire to, he'd just lie down and die. The thing with Goku in the BoG film is that he's arrogant and the battle with Beerus is what brings him down to Earth. He's so deluded he hates the fact he has to rely on others to beat an opponent when that's the only reason he won any fights in the Z era at all. Him lying to himself so his bruised ego can take the hit better is usually what people who live up their own ass do to compensate for when reality gives them a good smack in the face.

Goku's way of thinking in BoG is a lot more in line with Vegeta. He's okay with a strong opponent coming for him but not one who's strong enough to completely stomp him to pieces.

As for Ginyu, he's wrong about his power for being at 85 000 and then Goku proves him even more wrong by using Kaio-Ken. The entire point of that scene, like with any scene concerning scouters is to show just how faulty Freeza and his army are when sensing power.

Hates as in he would like to get stronger than them asap. Why would he be nursing a bruised ego after meeting a new strong opponent? He'd enjoy having the prospect of catching up, like you said. He has no reason to lie, especially since the closer Beerus is the more possible it is for Goku to be as strong as a god, while if he was so far out of reach that he thinks it's literally impossible to catch up, where's the fun in that?

Ginyu was off by 5k, he can't sense ki at all, and he's someone not nearly as experienced as Beerus or Goku. Like I said, near perfect accuracy. That scene shows how faulty scouters are. Kaioken is an artificial boost in power. Ginyu nearly perfectly judged his base power.

Think about the actual context of the movie and where Goku is at, he's thinking more like Vegeta and less like Goku. He's okay with a strong opponent as long as he can still come out on top, when that doesn't happen and he needs to rely on the lowly peons (his friends who are the only reason he got anything done), he gets frustrated and doesn't enjoy himself as much. He needed the peons to give him the boost and he hates that. The movie even explicitly draws parallels between Goku's pride and Vegeta's and where the two stand during the events of the film.

With that state of mind, Goku, who's experienced enough to know that you don't need to be 10000 stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto to beat him in a fight would probably make any excuse he can to soften his bruised ego. He even avoids trying the God ritual by sitting back and letting everyone get their asses kicked until he relents and decides to do it anyway.

Ginyu is also an experienced fighter who knows that Goku one shotted Recoome and Burter even with Jeice backing him up. That alone lets him know "Okay, this guy is probably above 50 000" then when they fight and Goku can't get the edge on him, he can dial it back and say "Yeah, he's probably close to me but not close enough to win."

[Bullza]

So now we know that Whis isn't the strongest fighter that Beerus has fought but it's a new mysterious character instead it raises the question of who is it? Why is this person so strong? And how strong is he?

It seems as though he wouldn't be as strong as Beerus but he's at least stronger than SSJG Goku. Whether he's stronger than SSJB Goku (assuming he's any stronger than SSJG) or Golden Frieza we'll see.

[LightBing]

So now we know that Whis isn't the strongest fighter that Beerus has fought but it's a new mysterious character instead it raises the question of who is it? Why is this person so strong? And how strong is he?

It seems as though he wouldn't be as strong as Beerus but he's at least stronger than SSJG Goku. Whether he's stronger than SSJB Goku (assuming he's any stronger than SSJG) or Golden Freeza we'll see.

Did Beerus actually mention who won? Or did he just said Goku was the second strongest he fought? I don't remember. If the new guy is the fellow from 900 years ago, he had all the time in the World to be that strong. I would imagine he has the lifespan of Beerus. Of course this is all speculation. But I doubt it's just a random alien in some planet, who did a lot of push-ups.

[Bullza]

He didn't say who won but with how Beerus carries himself and believes himself to be the strongest in the Universe, he likely probably did win.

I don't see any of the combatants on either side being as strong as Beerus or Champa.

[dbzfan7]

Beerus and Champa's fight has them flying around planet to planet, and one shotting said planets with physical blows. Damn. So we've had DC amped up ridiculously between Goku and Beerus. We have striker power amped ridiculously in this fight and Goku vs Beerus. We've had speed amped up as early as episode 2 and this fight. I think lifting strength is the only thing that hasn't been amped up to ludicrous levels yet.

[Noah]

That was one reason I had in the past about being against continuing Dragon Ball story post GT:

Battle Powers would get incredible high that I don't see how the writers could handle all that OP shit without having a lot of inconsistencies.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So, how does Superman's feats compare to Beerus' feats? Have his clashes threatened to destroy the universe, and has he fought from one planet to another like that, and has he destroyed planets one after another with a punch on each one like that?

[Saiyan007]

So, how does Superman's feats compare to Beerus' feats?
Have his clashes threatened to destroy the universe, and has he fought from one planet to another like that, and has he destroyed planets one after another with a punch on each one like that?

Beerus would 1 shot most Superman at this point tbh(except for pre crisis,Superman One Mlillion and Cosmic armor Supes).Beerus and Goku in DBS are completely different monsters than they were before these guys are near universal levels.Berus could be universal by himself for all we know

[Hellspawn28]

Superboy Prime punched reality itself, causing shockwaves in spacetime. When he got a power up against Monarch, he was able to stand up against a blast that nearly wipe out the whole universe. Superboy Prime from Countdown to Final Crisis would beat any form of Goku in my opinion.

[ekrolo2]

Goku could basically beat most versions of Superman well before Super. Unless Toriyama makes him a nigh omnipotent God, he'll never beat the likes of Thought Robot, One Million or Superboy Prime.

[Saiyan007]

Superboy Prime punched reality itself, causing shockwaves in spacetime.

is that really quantifiable?

When he got a power up against Monarch, he was able to stand up against a blast that nearly wipe out the whole universe. Superboy Prime from Countdown to Final Crisis would beat any form of Goku in my opinion.

Before the power up Goku could kill him with a blast as a SSJG he has the DC to do it.It's just the guardian power up he got makes him even stronger

edit: Goku can kill superboy prime before he got the guardian power up

[Birusu16]

The only versions of Superman who can currently beat the god tiers of DB are Cosmic Armor Superman, Prime 1 million Superman, and Pre-Crisis Superman.

[Hellspawn28]

Goku could beat pre-power up Superboy Prime, but I consider Superboy Prime after he got power up to be stronger then Goku in my opinion. So far Goku hasn't tank a attack that destroy a whole galaxy or universe.

[buutenks]

haha,i saw the chapter,cool fight,very awesome.not as impressive as the universal shockwaves but very entertaining.Cant wait to see how the anime handles it hehe.

I am glad super showed some new destructive things.Dbz was stuck in the same planet busting time loop from beginning till end.It wouldnt have been an issue if it werent for the fact that the villains were thousands of times weaker than each other,so it didnt made much sense to me.

Atleast now,even if they dont show more bigger things,it wont be illogical since beerus is still and proly will remain top dog.

Whis and vados r to OP to count.

After all that,vados and whis simply neck chop them rofl.That is simply crazy.

[Pannaliciour]

Whis or Vados will destroy pre crisis superman. Have you all look at the manga: Whis and Vados one shot Beerus and Champa like nothing.

[ekrolo2]

Whis or Vados will destroy pre crisis superman. Have you all look at the manga: Whis and Vados one shot Beerus and Champa like nothing.

Pre-Crisis Superman sneezing annihilated an entire Solar System. Not a punch or kick or energy based attack, a sneeze. I know people like to prop up the Super feat as if its the bastard child of Broly and Fem-Broly but until I see a DBZ guy cause mass destruction with something as casually as a sneeze, they ain't taking Pre-Crisis Superman.