Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

Gohan was poisoned and his body was rotting.

No way was he not losing power.

Gohan didn't start to lose power until after he went Super Saiyan for a several minutes. He didn't began to drastically weakened before then since he was still beating up Lavender in his base form.

[HeroR]

Base Goku above Super Saiyan Gohan or no?

No. I saw nothing that indicated base Goku (Without god ki of course) > SSJ Gohan.

Again, Goku's base form never had god ki. You can keep thinking this two-base theory all you want, but the show has clearly stated several times that only Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan have god ki.

[Bullza]

I do think he was losing power but they fought toe to toe only shortly after Gohan transformed. The Super Saiyan Gohan at that point should still be stronger than his Base self from a minute earlier and Base Goku appears to be above that.

We've got a serious Buu going toe to toe with the powered up Basil. Base Goku going toe to toe with a powered up Bergamo. Is Base Goku roughly Buu tier perhaps?

It's still uncertain.

[ZombieVito]

I do think he was losing power but they fought toe to toe only shortly after Gohan transformed. The Super Saiyan Gohan at that point should still be stronger than his Base self from a minute earlier and Base Goku appears to be above that.

We've got a serious Buu going toe to toe with the powered up Basil. Base Goku going toe to toe with a powered up Bergamo. Is Base Goku roughly Buu tier perhaps?

It's still uncertain.

Did Lavender even managed to land a hit on Super Saiyan Gohan? Going toe to toe with him could be a combination of Gohan being blinded and not going all out.

That's how I see it at least. We also don't know how quickly he was losing power.

[HeroR]

I do think he was losing power but they fought toe to toe only shortly after Gohan transformed. The Super Saiyan Gohan at that point should still be stronger than his Base self from a minute earlier and Base Goku appears to be above that.

We've got a serious Buu going toe to toe with the powered up Basil. Base Goku going toe to toe with a powered up Bergamo. Is Base Goku roughly Buu tier perhaps?

It's still uncertain.

Did Lavender even managed to land a hit on Super Saiyan Gohan? Going toe to toe with him could be a combination of Gohan being blinded and not going all out.

That's how I see it at least. We also don't know how quickly he was losing power.

Gohan was going all out and he couldn't finished the fight fast enough.

On why would Goku only be in Buu's tier? Especially since Bergamo was clearly the strongest and Goku was able to take hits from him even before he went Super Saiyan.

[Bullza]

Did Lavender even managed to land a hit on Super Saiyan Gohan? Going toe to toe with him could be a combination of Gohan being blinded and not going all out.

He didn't but SSJ Gohan did pound on Lavender and he was still alright. Then they had another exchange and no Lavender didn't hit him but he was keeping up with and giving and blocking shots.

Again this wasn't long after he transformed and before he collapsed. Even by then it was still affecting him or he wouldn't have collapsed but would he really be on the same strenght as just moments before in his Base form? I dunno.

On why would Goku only be in Buu's tier? Especially since Bergamo was clearly the strongest and Goku was able to take hits from him even before he went Super Saiyan.

Well Buu fought on par with the drugged Basil and then finished him off without too much trouble with his own blast. Yeah surely Bergamo is stronger than the non drugged Basil but is he also stronger than the powered up Basil? Might be, might not be.

[ChiefWamsutta]

DBZ and BoG Pre-SSG Absorption: Base Goku = 50% Frieza (Namek Saga)

BoG Post-SSG Absorption: Base Goku = SS3 Goku (Buu Saga)

RoF: Base Goku = Super Buu

U6: Base Goku = Ultimate Gohan (Buu Saga)

Future Trunks and Universe Survival: Base Goku = Base Vegito (Buu Saga)

I am still going with this idea. It could be generally around where Goku is at.

Yeahhhh, Bergamo's true power wasn't shown. He only pushed back SSB KK Goku because he was still absorbing Goku's power. That was his limit though, hence his deforming. Goku addressed that he had no idea what his real strength was. It's still around the other brothers' power probably.

[ZombieVito]

Did Lavender even managed to land a hit on Super Saiyan Gohan? Going toe to toe with him could be a combination of Gohan being blinded and not going all out.

He didn't but SSJ Gohan did pound on Lavender and he was still alright. Then they had another exchange and no Lavender didn't hit him but he was keeping up with and giving and blocking shots.

Again this wasn't long after he transformed and before he collapsed. Even by then it was still affecting him or he wouldn't have collapsed but would he really be on the same strenght as just moments before in his Base form? I dunno.

I will not complicate myself and just assume that he wasn't going all out in that first minute and once he did the poison began to spread very quickly. He collapses after saying "I will finish this" after all.

[HeroR]

Did Lavender even managed to land a hit on Super Saiyan Gohan? Going toe to toe with him could be a combination of Gohan being blinded and not going all out.

He didn't but SSJ Gohan did pound on Lavender and he was still alright. Then they had another exchange and no Lavender didn't hit him but he was keeping up with and giving and blocking shots.

Again this wasn't long after he transformed and before he collapsed. Even by then it was still affecting him or he wouldn't have collapsed but would he really be on the same strenght as just moments before in his Base form? I dunno.

On why would Goku only be in Buu's tier? Especially since Bergamo was clearly the strongest and Goku was able to take hits from him even before he went Super Saiyan.

Well Buu fought on par with the drugged Basil and then finished him off without too much trouble with his own blast. Yeah surely Bergamo is stronger than the non drugged Basil but is he also stronger than the powered up Basil? Might be, might not be.

He probably is since Bergamo was called in no uncertain terms to be the strongest, even before he absorbed Goku's power. Even then, Goku got hit by Bergamo in his base form after he took his power and doubled it.

[Bullza]

Where was that said? I don't see that line and I'm halfway through the episode.

[Marlowe89]

I don't think we can make a good assumption of Bergamo's power. All he did was just take Goku's stenght and fight with it, which is exactly stated by Goku at the end of their fight. So the only question is if this ability has a cap of some type.

This. Bergamo essentially steals his opponents' power to gradually become stronger so resisting Super Saiyan Blue isn't exactly indicative of his default strength. We'd have to see him fight again in the actual tournament.

[LowRyder2005]

Well Buu fought on par with the drugged Basil and then finished him off without too much trouble with his own blast. Yeah surely Bergamo is stronger than the non drugged Basil but is he also stronger than the powered up Basil? Might be, might not be.

Yeah, exactly. That's more or less the gist of it. It is interesting that they're more often than not relying on gimmicky fighters, though. We had only one straightforward battle out of three.

EDIT: Okay, watched the episode. I believe we got more or less two significative feats out of this fight: even after absorbing Goku's power, Bergamo had a really hard time holding his own against Super Saiyan Goku. The simplest conclusions are that he had either his limit already, and was therefore struggling to get more power and/or he would have needed much more time to surpass Super Saiyan Goku. Secondly, going back to when the two started the fight the same Goku - who was probably not holding back in base - appeared evenly matched with the opponent. There's the lingering idea Bergamo was not going all out, but it appears intuitive (if not almost unequivocal, I'd dare say) that even his "true" power, referenced by Goku, would be below his giant form.
My arbitrary numbers:

Super Saiyan Blue Goku + KK (*2?): 9,750
Bergamo (absorbing the Kamehameha?): closer to SSB Goku
~
Super Saiyan Goku: 19.5
Bergamo (vs. Super Saiyan Goku): 11
Mr. Buu: 7.5
Super Saiyan Gohan: 4.4
Basil (drugged): 3
Bergamo: 0.4
Basil: 0.21
Lavenda: 0.076

In short, I ended up rating the Trio De Dangers (power-ups not included) around the Androids. Seems more or less fitting.

[Bullza]

Which makes it tricky to figure out. Mainly the Gohan and Lavender fight is the trickiest one. I can't tell if he's on par with Base Gohan because that's how the fight started, weaker because when blinded Gohan was blocking him easily but Lavender could have just underestimated him or he's sorta up there with Super Saiyan Gohan to an extent.

People were saying Basil was Perfect Cell level to Buu saga SSJ level and Super Basil was Super Perfect Cell level to Buu saga SSJ2 level. That seems fine.

Bergamo is gonna be the strongest of the three, I just don't know if that includes Super Basil. Goku was stronger so I'd say he could be Buu saga SSJ2 ~ Good Buu level or so.

If you wanted to stick to Base Goku = Base Gohan = Piccolo then he'd be a bit below Good Buu.

****

In the episode Rou said when Goku turned Super Saiyan Blue how he had power that rivalled the Gods. Which would imply really none of them had power rivalling the Gods before.

That's kinda contradictory with the Battle of God's saga because SSJ Goku really did put up a valiant fight against Beerus.

So again seems to perhaps go against them being God level without being Blue.

[Lord Frieza]

Bergamo dose not make it easy to judge but I think I know why he was having trouble as a giant.

It boils down to the same weaknesses all giant transformations have. In a larger size, one becomes an easier target due to their size hindering their ability to evade attacks. Also your weak spots and pressure points grow larger with you, making them easy to hit.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ori ... giants.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/sca ... -22991.jpg

Also its possible that Bergamo can't sense Goku's ki anymore then Goku can sense his. Thats a major disadvantaged when trying to fight someone who is both tiny and fast.

Giants tend not to do well in dragon ball unless they have the true power edge or a gimmick. Piccolo's Great Namekian form didn't do well in battle, while his physical strength and durability increased, his power didn't and he was soundly beaten by Goku. Vegeta as an Oozaru was 10x stronger then Goku, while Goku himself was drained from the kkx4 kamehameha, had Goku's power been on a more equal footing Vegeta's size would have been a hindrance. Slug, despite his apparent power increase as a giant, took a good shot to the face because Goku used his size and stretching power against him. Interestingly Slug's hearing seems to make up for his inability to sense ki. Janemba in his first form only did so well because Goku was not going all out and he was using a lot of weird and wonderful powers to keep Goku off balance.....until Goku had enough and went SS3. Hirudegarn is another good example, without his mist powers there are a number of times he would have taken damage from weaker characters and missed them while attacking.

The only real exception to the rule is Golden Oozaru Baby in GT.

[Zamasu55]

At least it was confirmed that Base Goku didn't have God-ki, since all the Gods notice it after he goes Ssj Blue.
Two-base theory confirmed yet again.

[ekrolo2]

At least it was confirmed that Base Goku didn't have God-ki, since all the Gods notice it after he goes Ssj Blue.
Two-base theory confirmed yet again.

I'll believe it when Base Goku chumps an opponent who his SS1-3 self can't again.

[Bullza]

At least it was confirmed that Base Goku didn't have God-ki, since all the Gods notice it after he goes Ssj Blue.
Two-base theory confirmed yet again.

He's never had God Ki fighting anyone though. He never had it when he fought Frieza because Gohan and Krillin only noticed it after he went Blue there as well.

Bergamo had a really hard time holding his own against Super Saiyan Goku.

Ah! Yes that's right. So that pretty much confirms that as a Super Saiyan he's definitely above Buu. Gohan might be also then.

Personally I had Buu in between Base and Super Saiyan (much closer to Base though).

[pacz360]

At least it was confirmed that Base Goku didn't have God-ki, since all the Gods notice it after he goes Ssj Blue.
Two-base theory confirmed yet again.

No it doesn't quit pushing this shit

[Zamasu55]

At least it was confirmed that Base Goku didn't have God-ki, since all the Gods notice it after he goes Ssj Blue.
Two-base theory confirmed yet again.

No it doesn't quit pushing this shit

I admire your ability to deny he truth.

[ekrolo2]

At least it was confirmed that Base Goku didn't have God-ki, since all the Gods notice it after he goes Ssj Blue.
Two-base theory confirmed yet again.

No it doesn't quit pushing this shit

I admire your ability to deny he truth.

I don't see how Goku using SSBlue, a form utilizing God Ki, proves he has it in Base. If Bergamo was stated to be stronger than SS Gohan and Base Goku beat the crap out of him, that would serve as good evidence but that's not what happened.