Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[pacz360]

TBH i never liked the idea that base saiyans were stronger than FF Freeza even before BoG. Beerus' statement made me smile hehe.

The whole base saiyans>everyone else thing is from Vegeta claiming he will win even without transforming. That IMO is simply rubbish, since Vegeta is full of BS most of the time.

What is odd IMO is that if base copy Vegeta is ssg level, why did he took so much time to down Gotenks? This gave me the impression, that while very strong, base isnt at god level, maybe ssj1-3 is and ssj blue is higher.

Hey as I said even if you don't by base goku being god level he was able to trade blows with base copy vegeta who stomped ssj3 gotenks proving base goku and vegeta are above most buu saga fighters and that was reference back in the future trunks saga.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

That's not what the statement means. It's just how you chose to read it. I could just tell you "no, I think it was referring to that moment in which Goku reached the full power of a Super Saiyan God, which he had access to in his Super Saiyan form". And it's painfully clear at this point that you can't really disprove it since you keep keep reiterating the same point ad libitum.

And I'll just tell you that what you're saying doesn't make sense since Goku didn't become the Super Saiyan God right before he punched Beerus as an SSJ.

Again, you don't get that you're not proving much. Do you have any way to prove that:

A. Goku could not have been stronger than a Super Saiyan God the moment he turned into a Super Saiyan and then became slightly stronger the moment he fired the Kamehameha? Although you deem it silly or improbable, I believe it has been proven you can't, really.
B. Goku started out slightly weaker than a Super Saiyan God and then reached a power equal to a Super Saiyan God at the end of the fight? Same as above.

So if there's no argument to be had it's because - for the umpteenth time - you are not presenting any fact, just your interpretation. I mean, it's not like I'm even trying to be particularly belligerent here; it's just that given Super's not-exactly-linear writing there's simply enough room for many (conflicting) theories. As another sensible user very wisely said, "it's fair to be critical, but it's critical to be fair".

No, you can't make that argument because once again, nothing hints at Goku's power increasing after SSJG faded away, not like that would even make any sense.

[buutenks]

TBH i never liked the idea that base saiyans were stronger than FF Freeza even before BoG. Beerus' statement made me smile hehe.

The whole base saiyans>everyone else thing is from Vegeta claiming he will win even without transforming. That IMO is simply rubbish, since Vegeta is full of BS most of the time.

What is odd IMO is that if base copy Vegeta is ssg level, why did he took so much time to down Gotenks? This gave me the impression, that while very strong, base isnt at god level, maybe ssj1-3 is and ssj blue is higher.

Hey as I said even if you don't by base goku being god level he was able to trade blows with base copy vegeta who stomped ssj3 gotenks proving base goku and vegeta are above most buu saga fighters and that was reference back in the future trunks saga.

Ye pretty much, at minimum base Goku back in u6 arc was Buutenks level. Now he is over 10x stronger, so at min around ssj Vegetto in base. So very strong.

About ssj blue, to me it makes the most sense that only ssj blue surpassed ssg, since it was actually stated and beyond that no mention of lower trasnformations surpassing ssg were made.

[LowRyder2005]

And I'll just tell you that what you're saying doesn't make sense since Goku didn't become the Super Saiyan God right before he punched Beerus as an SSJ.

This is not a valid reason at all. There is no rule anywhere but in your head that Goku must have access to all of its godly power from the very first moment. And this is no more arbitrary than 3/4 of all of your logical inferences so far, like "X was talking about the quality of his ki" and such.

Again, you don't get that you're not proving much. Do you have any way to prove that:

A. Goku could not have been stronger than a Super Saiyan God the moment he turned into a Super Saiyan and then became slightly stronger the moment he fired the Kamehameha? Although you deem it silly or improbable, I believe it has been proven you can't, really.
B. Goku started out slightly weaker than a Super Saiyan God and then reached a power equal to a Super Saiyan God at the end of the fight? Same as above.

No, you can't make that argument because once again, nothing hints at Goku's power increasing after SSJG faded away, not like that would even make any sense.

Arguing that "it doesn't make sense just because" is not a valid argument (*2). I've proved my point plenty about the existence of aforementioned possibilities.

[Cabba]

[
Again, you don't get that you're not proving much. Do you have any way to prove that:

A. Goku could not have been stronger than a Super Saiyan God the moment he turned into a Super Saiyan and then became slightly stronger the moment he fired the Kamehameha? I believe it has been proven you can't, really.
B. Goku started out slightly weaker than a Super Saiyan God and then reached a power equal to a Super Saiyan God at the end of the fight? Same as above.

So there's no argument to be had because - for the umpteenth time - you are not presenting any fact, just your interpretation.

Why are you guys arguing about this? In the movie Beerus said you have not lost much strength, you kept most of it
So its clear SSG was stronger, BUT Goku SSJ was clearly on the same league ass SSG perhaps if only slightly weaker but still on the same league nonetheless,which is a massive jump from SS3 being defeated with the flick of a finger

Goku isn't more talented than Piccolo. Talent doesn't equal power. Goku just works harder, has transformations, and has better teachers.

Goku was only slightly stronger than piccolo on the tournament fight yet after 4 years of training piccolo power level was on par with Gokus except for his makankosapo technique. Goku was able to go from 24K to over 3 million training alone, even after fusing with nail he couldnt match goku. After Goku recovered, piccolo was taken away by his power. So yeah i mean more talented in the sense that Goku always pulled ahead of him in fighting ability and raw power
But for argument sake lets assume they were on par, why the hell would Goku not reach Android 20 power level while having the same training with piccolo for 3 years especially considering Base goku had a massive lead over piccolo at that time

[LowRyder2005]

[
Again, you don't get that you're not proving much. Do you have any way to prove that:

A. Goku could not have been stronger than a Super Saiyan God the moment he turned into a Super Saiyan and then became slightly stronger the moment he fired the Kamehameha? I believe it has been proven you can't, really.
B. Goku started out slightly weaker than a Super Saiyan God and then reached a power equal to a Super Saiyan God at the end of the fight? Same as above.

So there's no argument to be had because - for the umpteenth time - you are not presenting any fact, just your interpretation.

Why are you guys arguing about this? In the movie Beerus said you have not lost much strength, you kept most of it
So its clear SSG was stronger, BUT Goku SSJ was clearly on the same league ass SSG perhaps if only slightly weaker but still on the same league nonetheless,which is a massive jump from SS3 being defeated with the flick of a finger

His position is that the Super Saiyan Goku who fought against Beerus is, without a doubt, much, much weaker than Super Saiyan God Goku (about 300 times weaker, in his own estimation; I add that he has been talking specifically about Super thus far) and that such is an undisputable fact. I'm merely advocating the existence of other valid interpretations, which he keeps trying to shoot down in various (and, personally, pretty unconvincing) ways.

At this point, I think I made it fairly obvious that my real intent is trying to make him understand that even other interpretations which do not conform to his may be worth of some credit. But I won't spend any more than a couple more posts on this, since we have clearly reached a dead end.

[Cabba]

His position is that the Super Saiyan Goku who fought against is, without a doubt, much, much weaker than Super Saiyan God Goku and that such is an undisputable fact. I'm merely advocating the existence of other valid interpretations, which he keeps trying to shoot down in various (and, personally, pretty unconvincing) ways.

The hell? Beerus actually commented on Goku keeping most of the power after losing the transformation and called him a prodigy for it, this is an actual fact right there

[Beyond]

Goku was only slightly stronger than piccolo on the tournament fight yet after 4 years of training piccolo power level was on par with Gokus except for his makankosapo technique. Goku was able to go from 24K to over 3 million training alone, even after fusing with nail he couldnt match goku. After Goku recovered, piccolo was taken away by his power. So yeah i mean more talented in the sense that Goku always pulled ahead of him in fighting ability and raw power
But for argument sake lets assume they were on par, why the hell would Goku not reach Android 20 power level while having the same training with piccolo for 3 years especially considering Base goku had a massive lead over piccolo at that time

I see what your saying. It's plot. If you want an in universe answer, fusing with Nail gave Piccolo more potential, so he made gains faster. Once Piccolo caught up to Goku's base. Goku probably just suppressed himself in SSJ. Most of the training was just leveling Piccolo up I guess. Goku's base probably went from 3,000,000 to over 100,000,000 from frieza to battle of gods. That's over 33x stronger in base when you factor in SSJ it's still ridiculous.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

This is not a valid reason at all. There is no rule anywhere but in your head that Goku must have access to all of its godly power from the very first moment. And this is no more arbitrary than 3/4 of all of your logical inferences so far, like "Beerus was talking about the quality of his ki" and such.

What are you talking about? Goku stated himself as an SSJG, that he was at 100% power. So if Goku increases his power as an SSJ, it is clear that he was not on par with SSJG prior.

Both SSJG and post god Goku are running on Super Saiyan God's power, so Goku saying that the power itself that he was using didn't feel any weaker makes perfect sense. Beerus said nothing except that God's power merged with Goku, so I don't know why you keep bringing him up.

Arguing that "it doesn't make sense" just because is not a valid argument (*2). I've proved my point plenty about the existence of aforementioned possibilities.

Goku already unlocked Super Saiyan God's full power when he was using the actual form as he stated himself, so nope claiming that Goku was "unlocking more power" as an SSJ is completely unsupported. Bringing up possibilities don't matter when you have no evidence backing them up.

[LowRyder2005]

What are you talking about? Goku stated himself as an SSJG, that he was at 100% power. So if Goku increases his power as an SSJ, it is clear that he was not on par with SSJG prior.

Both SSJG and post god Goku are running on Super Saiyan God's power, so Goku saying that the power itself that he was using didn't feel any weaker makes perfect sense. Beerus said nothing except that God's power merged with Goku, so I don't know why you keep bringing him up.

Your idea is that Goku didn't realize he was out of SSG because of the quality of the ki, and not sheer power. I was trying to maieutically follow your notion to end up with the conclusion that still it leaves open many possibilities for Goku to reach SSG's power regardless: could you disprove that Goku started to tap into his power up to the very fullest when he charged the Kamehameha? No, in fact, it would fit just as well with your intepretation of the Beerus' phrase and the idea Goku had powered up. Or when he punched Beerus at the end? It would fit with Beerus saying "so this is the power of the Super Saiyan God!" (which according to could only have a wholly different meaning) even following your (again, arbitrary) precondition that Goku started out weaker when he re-transformed in a regular Super Saiyan.

Goku already unlocked Super Saiyan God's full power when he was using the actual form as he stated himself, so nope claiming that Goku was "unlocking more power" as an SSJ is completely unsupported. Bringing up possibilities don't matter when you have no evidence backing them up

I think that's part of the problem. You are not realizing that the burden of proof is not on me: it's on you. You are the one acting like there can only be one specific conclusion, therefore you are the one who needs to find a way to disprove everything else beyond reasonable doubt. If you can't do it, you may simply concede that there may be other possibilities. I mean, I don't know how much you'd listen to a guy on the internet trying to make you recall the gist behind the standard experimental method but this exchange is basically pointless for one reason in particular: most folks would have just admitted they had formed an opinion about some facts and that at most, based on their intuition (because that's really all you're using), they thought to have a strong case. This after some really basic scrutiny from a critical party, mind you.

[Cabba]

I see what your saying. It's plot. If you want an in universe answer, fusing with Nail gave Piccolo more potential, so he made gains faster. Once Piccolo caught up to Goku's base. Goku probably just suppressed himself in SSJ. Most of the training was just leveling Piccolo up I guess. Goku's base probably went from 3,000,000 to over 100,000,000 from frieza to battle of gods. That's over 33x stronger in base when you factor in SSJ it's still ridiculous.

Except he was shown training in base form with Gohan and Piccolo
This just all seems so silly based on the one comment Beerus made (or do you have any other evidences to even play with the idea?) which was not even clear cut, on a movie that was made years after the Majin saga ended
There is absolutely nothing that points to Goku base form being the same as his strength in namek in Majin sag

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Your idea is that Goku didn't realize he was out of SSG because of the quality of the ki, and not sheer power. I was trying to maieutically follow your notion to end up with the conclusion that still it leaves open many possibilities for Goku to reach SSG's power regardless: could you disprove that Goku started to tap into his power up to the very fullest when he charged the Kamehameha? No, in fact, it would fit just as well with your intepretation of the Beerus' phrase and the idea Goku had powered up. Or when he punched Beerus at the end? It would fit with Beerus saying "so this is the power of the Super Saiyan God!" (which according to could only have a wholly different meaning) even following your (again, arbitrary) precondition that Goku started out weaker when he re-transformed in a regular Super Saiyan.

There isn't anything implying that Goku was tapping into his SSJG power to the fullest when he charged his Kamehameha at all. You would have to prove that he reached SSJG's full power. All that was shown is that he increased his power.

Especially not when Beerus still ridiculed his power as not being able to touch him as long as he was at that level.

No, claiming that Beerus has Goku's power over the entire course of the fight in mind doesn't contradict his statement, no matter how badly you want it to.

I think that's part of the problem. You are not realizing that the burden of proof is not on me: it's on you. You are the one acting like there can only be one specific conclusion, therefore you are the one who needs to find a way to disprove everything else beyond reasonable doubt. If you can't do it, you may simply concede that there may be other possibilities. I mean, I don't know how much you'd listen to a guy on the internet trying to make you recall the gist behind the standard experimental method but this exchange is basically pointless for one reason in particular: most folks would have just admitted they had formed an opinion about some facts and that at most, based on their intuition (because that's really all you're using), they thought to have a strong case. This after some really basic scrutiny from a critical party, mind you.

No, it's completely on you to prove that Goku was somehow unlocking more power that was on par or even greater than SSJG as a mere SSJ even when SSJG Goku stated that he was operating at 100%. SSJG had no more latent power, so there is only one conclusion to be made from Goku increasing his power as an SSJ.

Your criticism doesn't make any sense at all. You keep saying there are "other possibilities" like that's an actual counterargument but you don't post any evidence for these possibilities existing.

[ChiefWamsutta]

TBH i never liked the idea that base saiyans were stronger than FF Freeza even before BoG. Beerus' statement made me smile hehe.

The whole base saiyans>everyone else thing is from Vegeta claiming he will win even without transforming. That IMO is simply rubbish, since Vegeta is full of BS most of the time.

What is odd IMO is that if base copy Vegeta is ssg level, why did he took so much time to down Gotenks? This gave me the impression, that while very strong, base isnt at god level, maybe ssj1-3 is and ssj blue is higher.

Hey as I said even if you don't by base goku being god level he was able to trade blows with base copy vegeta who stomped ssj3 gotenks proving base goku and vegeta are above most buu saga fighters and that was reference back in the future trunks saga.

Ye pretty much, at minimum base Goku back in u6 arc was Buutenks level. Now he is over 10x stronger, so at min around ssj Vegetto in base. So very strong.

About ssj blue, to me it makes the most sense that only ssj blue surpassed ssg, since it was actually stated and beyond that no mention of lower trasnformations surpassing ssg were made.

DBZ and BoG Pre-SSG Absorption: Base Goku = 50% Frieza (Namek Saga)

BoG Post-SSG Absorption: Base Goku = SS3 Goku (Buu Saga)

RoF: Base Goku = Super Buu

U6: Base Goku = Ultimate Gohan (Buu Saga)

Future Trunks and Universe Survival: Base Goku = Base Vegito (Buu Saga)

This is what I hold to be true. Base Goku is still beneath 100% Frieza like Beerus comments in Ep. 5, but he grew 20X more powerful from 3million to 60million. This allows for some growth during DBZ. In DBS, Goku absorbs a lot of power and makes a big jump in his Base form power level after the SSGod runs out. As with DBGT, SS3 power level as Goku's Base made him very strong. This would still allow for only SSB to be stronger than SSGod, and Base Goku is stronger than Vegeta. The jump from SS3 to Super Buu would make sense, as it is implied Goku gained a lot of power in his Base form from training with Whis. He and Vegeta would be the strongest out of the Z-Fighters still. Final Form Frieza would be around Super Buu too. This could allow for SS Gohan RoF to be around his Buu Saga Super Saiyan 1.

The jump in the U6 saga makes his Base stronger than SS3 Gotenks, but not at SSGod level when SS3 Gotenks should be knocked out. This has Frost stronger than Frieza RoF (not Golden) and below SSGod power, yet he is still a reputable force. Having Cabba with a Base form around Ultimate Gohan makes sense too, as Gohan is at that level without Super Saiyan. Base Goku = Ultimate Gohan would allow for him to be attacked by Hit and not be KOed, while assuming only One Base. Goku jumps to Base Vegito level after his fights with SSRose Goku Black because he definitely got stronger. This would result in Goku's Base still being around Ultimate Gohan when he fought Present Zamasu who would be around Buuhan. That way Present Zamasu isn't 2*SSGod, isn't Cell tier, and can be called a prodigy. SS2 Trunks matching Buuhan level could be difficult to accept, but that's okay. Goku didn't really get a lot of training in between FT and Universe Survival, which is why I have his Base at the same level.

[LowRyder2005]

No, claiming that Beerus has Goku's power over the entire course of the fight in mind doesn't contradict his statement, no matter how badly you want it to.

When did I say it was? I'm not arguing in black or white terms. I'm simply proving you can't even remotely suggest it is as univocal as you are making it sound (Beerus' phrase as much as everything else, basically).

No, it's completely on you to prove that Goku was somehow unlocking more power that was on par or even greater than SSJG as a mere SSJ even when SSJG Goku stated that he was operating at 100%. SSJG had no more latent power, so there is only one conclusion to be made from Goku increasing his power as an SSJ.

Your criticism doesn't make any sense at all. You keep saying there are "other possibilities" like that's an actual counterargument but you don't post any evidence for these possibilities existing.

[In blue: here's another completely arbitrary premise you would need, in turn, to prove.]

Eh? Trying to shift the burden again? It is an actual counterargument, and a pretty valid one. Do you even realize that this started with you wanting to explain to everyone the supposed "hierarchy" of this and that? Let's say, for the sake of the argument, that I'm officially/formally/whatever backing down from my position of "SSG must be = SS" in BOG - if it wasn't, at this point, apparent enough. I did start with a fairly innocent "they were equal" so I can at least take half a step back even though I thought it was very apparent by now. My motivations for such a position:

* Goku say he doesn't feel any weaker = I think he is as strong as the Super Saiyan God.
* Beerus says "is that really all you've got?" = I think it's an irrelevant taunt/ that Goku became stronger afterwards since Beerus appeared more interested. This minor phrase is - quite absurdly - the crux of the matter since it appears to be your cornerstone for your whole argument proving the hierarchy in BOG beyond any doubt. Yet it is still an inconclusive, if not downright meaningless statement (the fact it was said by a guy who bluffs about his strength every single time he mentions it and very much likes to taunt his opponents whenever possible should be an indication).
* Beerus saying "this is the power of the Super Saiyan God" when taking Goku's punch = I think it's a confirmation that Goku is as strong as the Super Saiyan God.

Your counterarguments where, in order to prove that all of the above were strict impossibilities were more or less:

* Goku is talking about the quality of his ki being godly and not quantity. Why? Because it can't be any other way. Super Saiyan Goku is about 300 times weaker than his Super Saiyan God.
* Goku can't start stronger than Super Saiyan God when he goes Super Saiyan because it doesn't make sense. Not really because I can find something in the narrative that disproves it, it just sounds off.
* Beerus absolutely can't be taunting Goku, the contrary doesn't make sense.

Do you see a pattern here? Most of the time I talked I said this was how I perceived everything, which by no means tried to be a fit for everyone. It is, after, just what my intuition told me, without need for reconfirmation. Needless to add you did not disprove anything, but just tried to counter my opinion with other opinions based on your own intuition. The difference between us is that I am not the one trying to lay out the facts for everyone. You are.
Therefore: no. I don't need to prove anything, absolutely, positively anything. On the other hand, you are the one talking in absolute terms since the beginning: "X is Y because Z", "A is B because C". Not "I think A may be B because of C", not "in my opinion X meant Y". You are the one making a claim and expressly told me "there are no theories", trying to pin the burden of proof on me - other than trying to make me appear like a bad guy - won't change the fact that your claims will remain, well, claims.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Eh? Trying to shift the burden again? It is an actual counterargument, and a pretty valid one. Do you even realize that this started with you wanting to explain to everyone the supposed "hierarchy" of this and that? Let's say, for the sake of the argument, that I'm officially/formally/whatever backing down from my position of SSG = SS - if it wasn't at this point apparent enough. I did start with a fairly innocent "they were equal" so I can at least take half a step back even though I thought it was very apparent by now. My motivations for such a position:

* Goku doesn't say he feels any weaker = I think he is as strong as the Super Saiyan God.
* Beerus says "is that really all you've got?" = I think it's irrelevant taunt (or maybe Goku became stronger)
* Beerus saying "this is the power of the Super Saiyan God" when taking Goku's punch = I think it's a confirmation that Goku is as strong as the Super Saiyan God.

Your counterarguments where, in order to prove that all of the above were strict impossibilities were more or less:

* Goku is talking about the quality of his ki being godly and not quantity. Why? Because it can't be any other way.
* Goku can't start stronger than Super Saiyan God when he goes Super Saiyan because it doesn't make sense. Not really because I can find something in the narrative that disproves it, it just sounds off.
* Beerus can't be taunting Goku for *cantrememberwhat*, the contrary doesn't make sense.

Do you see a pattern here? Most of the time I talked I said this was how I perceived everything, which by no means tried to be a fit for everyone. It is, after, just what my intuition told me, without need for reconfirmation. Needless to add you did not disprove anything, but just tried to counter my opinion with other opinions.
Therefore: no. I don't need to prove anything, absolutely, positively anything, because I am not the one trying to lay out the facts for everyone. On the other hand, you are the one talking in absolute terms since the beginning: "X is Y because Z", "A is B because C". Not "I think A may be B because of C", not "in my opinion X meant Y". You are the one making a claim and expressly told me "there are no theories", trying to pin the burden of proof on me - other than trying to make me appear like a bad guy - won't change the fact that your claims will remain, well, claims.

I'm taking repeating Goku's statement. He states that the power that he has doesn't feel any weaker, so that would mean that both SSJG and SSJ Goku post god are utilizing Super Saiyan God's power. That's it. The power he had before becoming a God is weaker than Super Saiyan God's power.

There is nothing supporting SSJ Goku being stronger than SSJG Goku, so no you can't equate something baseless like that to anything that I said.
The entire scene reinforces my position. Beerus taunts Goku saying his power is not as it should be, Goku increases his power, then Beerus says "very good, but you still won't be able to touch me at that level".

I already proved multiple times beyond reasonable doubt why your "possible interpretations" like SSJ Goku>SSJG Goku didn't make any sense whatsoever. You may not like the facts, but they're there. It's not my problem if you don't want to accept them.

[LowRyder2005]

The only fact I personally see after yet another time you are parroting back points which were previously addressed ad nauseam, is that you are probably looking for mere validation and have no interest in - or ignore the way to have - a proper discussion in which people confront their intuitions with mutual respect, without trying to blitzkrieg through others with them.

Although I have to admit: I am a little heart-broken since I think I wasted plenty of valuable time compiling posts that actually tried to make you reflect on some topics, posts which clearly ended up falling on deaf ears.

[perucho1990]

It seems like Bergamo can absorb power from attacks he receives and turn them into his own power by making his body larger. But even when he body was mountain sized, SSJ Goku was still kicking his butt. But then Goku turn SSJB and stacks Kaioken on top of that wins fairly cleanly. But here's the confusing part... Bergamo's beam when he was giant-sized was actually pushing back Goku's Kamehameha and Goku had to power up again to get the job done.

I... don't know what to make of this.

EDIT: According to Herms, Zeno told Goku not hold back
EDIT 2: How come Bergamo can't defend himself against SSJ Goku but can against SSJB Goku that has Kaioken stacked on top of that? I still can't get my head around that.
EDIT: 3: Wait, does this mean that Bergamo's own strength is on par with SSJB Goku? What part does him growing larger from receiving damage factor into that?

Kinda the same thing with Yakon.

He had the advantage over him while fighting in base yet he uses SSJ.

Also in a sense Bergamos ability is similar to anime Black.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

The only fact I personally see after yet another time you are parroting back points which were previously addressed ad nauseam, is that you are probably looking for mere validation and have no interest in - or ignore the way to have - a proper discussion in which people confront their intuitions with mutual respect, without trying to blitzkrieg through others with them.

Although I have to admit: I am a little heart-broken since I think I wasted plenty of valuable time compiling posts that actually tried to make you reflect on some topics, posts which clearly ended up falling on deaf ears.

No absolutely not. You gave your stance, I gave mine. You addressed my post ad nauseam, but addressing something isn't equivalent to actually countering it. It has nothing to do with validation.

You initially brushed off an entire scene of evidence that I presented as "Beerus was bluffing" even though it made no logical sense since the entire scene wasn't contingent on Beerus. Then you switched the narrative to "Your stance is no more factual than mine" even though I presented multiple pieces of evidences that supported my stance and went against every "possible interpretation" you kept claiming could exist.

[Bullza]

Gohan being in his Ultimate form against Lavender....I suppose I'll consider it but won't fully accept it until what happens with their training.

If he were though that would be good because it's mean Base Goku was as strong as Ultimate Gohan which would keep consistency with him being above SS3 Gotenks.

[DBZ Macky]

Yeah, it would actually be consistent for once. But how strong is Ultimate Gohan compared to SS Gohan from the RoF arc anyways? Is he 226 times stronger?

Because that's the official gap between Freeza's first and final form.