"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Basako]

Wait a minute, why doesn't Black use the same strategy?

Because he didn't train it. It probably took a while to Vegeta to master the technique.

Black doesn't seem to have the same weakness they did, though, he uses SSRose with no problems. It should be easy for him to do.

To do what? Combine the SSG with the SSR? Well, it's probably a technique that requires some practice, Vegeta was in the RoSaT for a while perfecting it. Black wouldn't just do it properly that fast.

[FireFly]

If Black attaining Rose was merely him gaining enough control over Goku's body to access his SSGSS form from zenkais, then it stands to reason he'd be able to use the God form as well. If he merely got so strong as a regular Super Saiyan that he surpassed godhood, and that progress wasn't just about learning Goku's tricks, then I can see him lacking SSJ2/3/God.

[SansrivaaL]

My take on their conversation.
[spoiler]Black: Do you think I'm the same as before?.... What changed? Vegeta.
Vegete: hmph... it seems you havent changed at all yourself with that smug ass face.
(they're basically trashtalking each other, dont take their conversation about not changing in appearance too deeply)
Black: Its good that you're in high spirits, did you find yourself a new transformation?
Vegeta: Beats me (sarcasm)
Black: Very well, show me. Whatever that transformation may be, do you think you can win against me?
*Vegeta transforms
Black: What the? red hair? Super Saiyan God? what the hell are you doing?
Vegeta: I understood something, that to beat you, I need this form.
Black: Hahaha, did too much despair made you break? what can a lower Super Saiyan form do?
*Vegeta smirks
Black: Whats with that face? Dont smile Saiyan.
*Vegeta slaps the ki blast and smirks again
Black: I told you, stop making that face.
*Vegeta dashes to Black and hits him
Black: You....your speed instantly.... what did you do?
Vegeta: I'll tell/show you what I did, right now.
Black: Where in that body do you keep that power?
*Vegeta sends Black flying
Black: Dont fck around with me, using a technique I cant understand.
Vegeta: Is losing to God pisses you off this much? Mr.Rose.
Black: Me? Lose? stop joking around.
Vegeta: Well then, let's settle this.[/spoiler]

[TheUltimateNinja]

If Black attaining Rose was merely him gaining enough control over Goku's body to access his SSGSS form from zenkais, then it stands to reason he'd be able to use the God form as well. If he merely got so strong as a regular Super Saiyan that he surpassed godhood, and that progress wasn't just about learning Goku's tricks, then I can see him lacking SSJ2/3/God.

He starts out as a Super Saiyan and then powers up to Rose, so it has to be the first scenario.

[TheUltimateNinja]

My take on their conversation.
[spoiler]Black: Do you think I'm the same as before?.... What changed? Vegeta.
Vegete: hmph... it seems you havent changed at all yourself with that smug ass face.
(they're basically trashtalking each other, dont take their conversation about not changing in appearance too deeply)
Black: Its good that you're in high spirits, did you find yourself a new transformation?
Vegeta: Beats me (sarcasm)
Black: Very well, show me. Whatever that transformation may be, do you think you can win against me?
*Vegeta transforms
Black: What the? red hair? Super Saiyan God? what the hell are you doing?
Vegeta: I understood something, that to beat you, I need this form.
Black: Hahaha, did too much despair made you break? what can a lower Super Saiyan form do?
*Vegeta smirks
Black: Whats with that face? Dont smile Saiyan.
*Vegeta slaps the ki blast and smirks again
Black: I told you, stop making that face.
*Vegeta dashes to Black and hits him
Black: You....you're speed instantly.... what did you do?
Vegeta: I'll tell/show you what I did, right now.
Black: Where in that body do you keep that power?
*Vegeta sends Black flying
Black: Dont fck around with me, using a technique I cant understand.
Vegeta: Is losing to God pisses you off this much? Mr.Rose.
Black: Me? Lose? stop joking around.
Vegeta: Well then, let's settle this.[/spoiler]

How pathetic. Manga Black is so uncool.

[OLKv3]

Wait a minute, why doesn't Black use the same strategy?

He doesn't have SSG. Base, SSJ, Rose. That's what Black has

Why wouldn't he have SSGod? Goku has it and he can now use SSRose which is analogous to SSBlue which is the evolved version of SSGod.

Because learning SSG is a whole other thing. Black has been learning things on the spot. He went a year with just SSJ until he finally figured out how to go Rose 2 chapters ago, and Vegeta apparently needed a year of training to master Blue and come up with this unique way of fighting

[SansrivaaL]

My take on their conversation.
[spoiler]Black: Do you think I'm the same as before?.... What changed? Vegeta.
Vegete: hmph... it seems you havent changed at all yourself with that smug ass face.
(they're basically trashtalking each other, dont take their conversation about not changing in appearance too deeply)
Black: Its good that you're in high spirits, did you find yourself a new transformation?
Vegeta: Beats me (sarcasm)
Black: Very well, show me. Whatever that transformation may be, do you think you can win against me?
*Vegeta transforms
Black: What the? red hair? Super Saiyan God? what the hell are you doing?
Vegeta: I understood something, that to beat you, I need this form.
Black: Hahaha, did too much despair made you break? what can a lower Super Saiyan form do?
*Vegeta smirks
Black: Whats with that face? Dont smile Saiyan.
*Vegeta slaps the ki blast and smirks again
Black: I told you, stop making that face.
*Vegeta dashes to Black and hits him
Black: You....you're speed instantly.... what did you do?
Vegeta: I'll tell/show you what I did, right now.
Black: Where in that body do you keep that power?
*Vegeta sends Black flying
Black: Dont fck around with me, using a technique I cant understand.
Vegeta: Is losing to God pisses you off this much? Mr.Rose.
Black: Me? Lose? stop joking around.
Vegeta: Well then, let's settle this.[/spoiler]

How pathetic. Manga Black is so uncool.

Indeed he is, tho I'm glad this Black was the one in the manga, one of the reasons why Black was such a great character in the anime was because of his personality and Nozawa. Imagine this Black in the anime... not even Nozawa's voice can make him good.

[Basako]

Well, I'm leaving, I'll come back later to continue with the trial. Let's see if we have translations for then, thanks in advance to the translators!

[TheUltimateNinja]

He doesn't have SSG. Base, SSJ, Rose. That's what Black has

Why wouldn't he have SSGod? Goku has it and he can now use SSRose which is analogous to SSBlue which is the evolved version of SSGod.

Because learning SSG is a whole other thing. Black has been learning things on the spot. He went a year with just SSJ until he finally figured out how to go Rose 2 chapters ago, and Vegeta apparently needed a year of training to master Blue and come up with this unique way of fighting

Black has no problems with Rose, and getting an advanced God form automatically grants you the lower level as well since Vegeta apparently had God before this.

[OLKv3]

Why wouldn't he have SSGod? Goku has it and he can now use SSRose which is analogous to SSBlue which is the evolved version of SSGod.

Because learning SSG is a whole other thing. Black has been learning things on the spot. He went a year with just SSJ until he finally figured out how to go Rose 2 chapters ago, and Vegeta apparently needed a year of training to master Blue and come up with this unique way of fighting

Black has no problems with Rose, and getting an advanced God form automatically grants you the lower level as well since Vegeta apparently had God before this.

No it doesn't, that's just head canon.
We have absolutely no idea how or when Vegeta got SSG. Just like we have no idea how or when Goku mastered SSG
Not to mention in this very chapter Black admits he doesn't understand SSG when he whines at Vegeta for using it against him

[MathSSJ]

He doesn't have SSG. Base, SSJ, Rose. That's what Black has

Why wouldn't he have SSGod? Goku has it and he can now use SSRose which is analogous to SSBlue which is the evolved version of SSGod.

Because learning SSG is a whole other thing. Black has been learning things on the spot. He went a year with just SSJ until he finally figured out how to go Rose 2 chapters ago, and Vegeta apparently needed a year of training to master Blue and come up with this unique way of fighting

Doesn't really work because in Toyotaro's continuity Goku's body already kept God due to the ritual. Black should have the form since he is already strong enough. Not like it matters too much because none of Blue's weaknesses seem to apply to his variant, rendering God moot.

Also, Vegeta didn't master Blue. He still has issues using it.

[TheSaiyanGod]

No, the point doesn't still stand. The manga doesn't have to respond for the anime writing, if they said that in the anime, that's exclusively an anime problem.

The warriors not having proportional increases to the time they trained has been a constant since always. Vegeta went from SS to SS2 in seven years and in the last two he has gone from SS2 to SSB. So it's nothing new and we've seen worse.

What are you talking about? I didn't talk about the anime. Goku and Vegeta didn't improve much after ROSAT training for 3 years, so he shouldn't get over 10x (as a massive lowball) stronger here. It's Toriyama's fault, really. The anime suffers from the same issue.

Yes, I realize that, it doesn't make it any less dumb. The previous series being stupid and having bad writing doesn't excuse this one when it's stupid and has bad writing. In fact, the recent series should learn from the mistakes.

I was about to say the anime has the same problem. It seems like it's impossible to have any consistency at all with the outline. At one point Goku is supposed to be ten times stronger than Goku for reasons... They train for 3 years in the RoSAT hit their limits and get nothing to really show for except Goku being X10 stronger somehow. Then Vegeta is supposed to job against Black and then Vegeta trains for 6 months in RoSAT and suddenly whoops Blacks tail... and both are left to fill in the blanks. I'm not sure what else to do with it. The foundation is broken, the outline is crap and not an ounce of effort seems to be put in at that level...

It was only said in the anime that they reached the limit, and yet Vegeta in the Black Saga got stronger.
In the manga he trains 1 year, and not only gets stronger as masterizes the form of SSB also

[SansrivaaL]

I just noticed but, Goku still has 1 senzu left... yeap, fusion is coming boys.

[TheMathemagician]

What are you talking about? I didn't talk about the anime. Goku and Vegeta didn't improve much after ROSAT training for 3 years, so he shouldn't get over 10x (as a massive lowball) stronger here. It's Toriyama's fault, really. The anime suffers from the same issue.

Yes, I realize that, it doesn't make it any less dumb. The previous series being stupid and having bad writing doesn't excuse this one when it's stupid and has bad writing. In fact, the recent series should learn from the mistakes.

I was about to say the anime has the same problem. It seems like it's impossible to have any consistency at all with the outline. At one point Goku is supposed to be ten times stronger than Goku for reasons... They train for 3 years in the RoSAT hit their limits and get nothing to really show for except Goku being X10 stronger somehow. Then Vegeta is supposed to job against Black and then Vegeta trains for 6 months in RoSAT and suddenly whoops Blacks tail... and both are left to fill in the blanks. I'm not sure what else to do with it. The foundation is broken, the outline is crap and not an ounce of effort seems to be put in at that level...

It was only said in the anime that they reached the limit, and yet Vegeta in the Black Saga got stronger.
In the manga he trains 1 year, and not only gets stronger as masterizes the form of SSB also

I think it's more accurate to say he's got a better control over SSB, but he hasn't mastered it as it still has problems. From what Herms said, SSB sounds like SSJ3.

[OLKv3]

Why wouldn't he have SSGod? Goku has it and he can now use SSRose which is analogous to SSBlue which is the evolved version of SSGod.

Because learning SSG is a whole other thing. Black has been learning things on the spot. He went a year with just SSJ until he finally figured out how to go Rose 2 chapters ago, and Vegeta apparently needed a year of training to master Blue and come up with this unique way of fighting

Doesn't really work because in Toyotaro's continuity Goku's body already kept God due to the ritual. Black should have the form since he is already strong enough. Not like it matters too much because none of Blue's weaknesses seem to apply to his variant, rendering God moot.

Also, Vegeta didn't master Blue. He still has issues using it.

Goku kept it due to ritual. Black never did the ritual. Why would he have it?
Also, Vegeta did master it. He stopped the transformation cost. Mastering it doesn't erase the other strain though, the one from keeping it on. Apparently it's like SSJ3 now, which was probably introduced to explain why Vegetto will defuse next chapter. This strain wasn't in the U6 arc, so SSB seemingly got retconned yet again

Also, huh? Black had a full day of rest inbetween his SSR uses, so he wouldn't have any negative drawbacks because the drawback was using it consecutively.

[OLKv3]

It's out on MS

[TheSaiyanGod]

Vegeta used the SSB in Chapter 20 for a long time against Black without hesitation, and did not complain at any time of the energy expenditure.
For me it is better cost-effective than SSJ3, and can stay much longer in the fight, even if it still spends a lot of stamina.

Apparently this expense can be controlled

[mfwlegend3]

Goku telling Zamasu that he was likely being used by Black reminded me of when he told Buu that he was merely a pawn used by Babidi, despite being stronger.

[Totamo]

There's still no tension at all since they can fuse at any time and win easily.

You only know this because you saw the anime. The manga being behind takes away almost all the tension, you already know what's going to happen.

And the fact that goku had the Zeno button in both versions, completely remove the tension, because goku should have press the button earlier when they we're figthing zamasu and black in their first trip,and Bam the arc is over,is the same case as rof.I hate to say this but super introducing more gods ruin the lore and story

Goku "should doing things" would have ended every arc after Freeza.

[Doctor.]

Wait. Why did Black go Rosé to fight Trunks?