Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[QuakingStar]

I never really watched SDBH, but the idea of DBS and GT characters scaling to each other is very interesting to me so I decided to see if it works.

Xeno Goku is from years after the Evil Dragons Saga while CC Goku is from right after the ToP, so the SSJ4 we see in GT is probably only comparable to SSJB fighters from prior sagas.

So if SSJB = SSJ4, then I imagine SSJG would be somewhere in Baby Vegeta's ballpark? and Ultra FP SSJ4 should be in Blue KK level. SSJ4 Gogeta would logically be Vegetto Blue level, which I have far below Gogeta Blue since Goku and Vegeta are much stronger vs Broly than vs Zamasu. Omega Shenlong probably falls somewhere in UI Sign tier.

But that's just me spitballing. Let's see if I actually get to those numbers.

OBS: Don't bother bringing me calculations about how SSJG Goku's punch had a force of 19860731x10^1169 and was going to destroy the multiomniverse so he kills SSJ4 Vegetto with his aura. All that fight shows is that Goku had bad Ki control, lol. People infinitely above SSJG Goku didn't have this problem in the same series. And it's not because no one in GT did this that they can't do this.

Part 1: Finding SSJ4 = SSJB

Spoiler:

IIRC this is something that's something we actually see in SDBH, with both Gokus fighting evenly in base and in their best forms with no clear winner.

It's commonly agreed that SSJG was nerfed post BoG. The anime makes it a complete afterthought, so I think 2x SSJ3 is about enough. SSJB is obviously 50x SSJG.

Base: 1
SSJ: 50
SSJ2: 100
SSJ3: 400
SSJG: 1,000 (2.5x SSJ3 to make the numbers neat).
SSJB: 50,000

So SSJ4 will also be 50,000x base. Let's see how this works in the Baby Vegeta fight.

SSJ3 Goku: 400
~ Golden Oozaru: 4,000
~ SSJ4: 50,000

Baby Vegeta: 450 (Same 1.125x gap Vegeta had over KKx2 Goku. Goku can barely compete, and his stamina only makes it worse)
~ Strongest Form 1: 900
~ Strongest Form 2: 3,600
~ Golden Oozaru: 36,000

SSJ4 Goku fought evenly with GOBV at first, but when the others healed him and he unlocked his full power Baby was easily defeated. I think this is perfect.

Now it's doing the actual power levels. I'l use 1 = 1 billion to avoid the zeroes. First I'll do a truncated list for Super:

Scaling DBS

Spoiler:

SSJ3 Goku (Boo Saga): 36
SSJ3 Gotenks/Super Boo: 60 (Smaller multipliers for fusion, again for simplicity)
Ultimate Gohan: 90
Gotenks-Boo: 120
Gohan-Boo: 150

Vegetto: 144
~ SSJ: 360

SSJ3 Goku (BoG): 40 (Considered the strongest because Gotenks is retarded and Gohan is rusty)

Vegetto (BoG, estimated): 160
~ SSJ: 400
~ SSJ3: 1,000 (Important to measure SSJG)

SSJG Goku: 2,000
~ SSJ: 2,500 (Said he absorbed and surpassed SSJG when he fought in SSJ)
~ Base: 50

Goku (RoF): 80
~ SSJB: 4,000,000

Freeza (RoF): 5.3
~ True form (70%): 84
~ Golden form: 4,800,000

Goku (U6/Early FT Saga): 100 (This is when Copy Vegeta tanks and one shots SSJ3 Gotenks. Best Base feat in DBS?)
~ SSJB: 5,000,000

SSJR Goku Black: 6,250,000 (1.25x is the perfect gap for when the weaker guy is kinda keeping up but not really)

Enraged Goku/Enraged Trunks/Zenkai Black: 7,500,000

SSJB Vegeta (Post Rosat): 10,000,000 (Goku will reach this power vs Merged Zamasu too somehow)
SSJR Black (Peak): 15,000,000

Merged Zamasu: 10,000,000,000

Vegetto: 200,000,000 (Will explain fusion base power in DBSB)
~ SSJB: 10,000,000,000 (I like to have SSJB = 50x for fusion as a nod to how SSJB was going to replace SSJ)

Toppo: 10,000,000

SSJB Goku (ToP): 10,000,000
~ KKx20: 200,000,000
~ Genki-Dama: 400,000,000
~ UIO: 1,000,000,000

Jiren (Initial): 1,000,000,000 (Shin and Beerus were talking about his hidden FP)

Kefla: 8,000,000
~ SSJ: 400,000,000 (Compared to Genki-Dama)
~ SSJ2 (Beyond limits): 2,000,000,000 (Could've killed 2nd UIO Goku)

SSJB Goku (Mid ToP): 20,000,000 (Said multiple times to be getting stronger)
~ KKx20: 400,000,000 (Said to be = Kefla)
~ UIO: 2,000,000,000

Hakaishin Toppo: 1,000,000,000
Jiren (Serious): 10,000,000,000

SSJB Goku (End of ToP): 50,000,000
~ KKx20: 1,000,000,000
~ UIO: 5,000,000,000
~ MUI: 25,000,000,000 (Definitely the strongest mortal)

Jiren (FP): 20,000,000,000 (Strongest guy ever)
~ Limit Breaker: 24,000,000,000 (Put up a much better fight vs Goku)

Broly doesn't matter, but I'll add him to explain why I have base fusion 20x SSJB

Broly: 45,000,000
~ SSJ: 2,250,000,000
~ LSSJ: 30,000,000,000

Gogeta: 900,000,000 (90% of Gogeta. So weaker, but close enough for some ppl to ignore the gap)
~ SSJ: 2,250,000,000
~ SSJB: 45,000,000,000

You see? SSJ Fusion = 50x Individual SSJB. Since I give fusion a 2.5x SSJ multiplier, that puts base fusion at 20x SSJB.

And that's it. Phew. DBS characters get power ups left and right, meanwhile GT is very stagnant. It's easy to see why it takes a Goku from after GT to match DBS Goku.

But GT has one advantage: BoGT Goku starts very strong. It's all but confirmed he's stronger than Majin Boo (Most likely Gohan-Boo or Toei-Hax Kid Boo), while we only know DBS Goku >>> SSJ3 Gotenks in base. Of course, it's not a stretch to say Base Goku > SSJ3 Vegetto, but I tried being minimalistic to be fair with GT.

GT (Way shorter than DBS I swear)

Spoiler:

Gohan-Boo: 150 (Just to remind you)

General Rildo: 200

Goku: 200
~ SSJ: 10,000 (Already stronger than SSJG? I didn't expect that... But BoG SSJG is the first power in DBS, so whatever)
~ SSJ2: 20,000
~ SSJ3: 80,000
~ Golden Oozaru: 800,000
~ SSJ4: 10,000,000 (Equal to Toppo and half of the ToP)

Baby Vegeta: 90,000
~ Strongest Form 1: 180,000
~ Strongest Form 2: 720,000
~ Golden Oozaru: 7,200,000

Goku (S17/Evil Dragons Saga): 400 (S17 and Dragons happen back to back, so no power up in between)
~ SSJ: 20,000
~ SSJ4: 20,000,000
~ Ultra FP: 400,000,000 (Equal to U7 Genki-Dama and SSJ Kefla)

Yi Xing Long: 200,000,000 (As high as he can be bc of what I say below. Also makes sense since he tanked KHHx10)
~ DBs absorbed: 2,000,000,000 ("Only" said to be ~10x stronger after absorbing the balls. Should beat SSJ2 Kefla)

Gogeta: 360,000,000 (Explained the "multiplier" in DBS section)
~ SSJ4: 18,000,000,000 (Same as above. He could fight FP Jiren, but would ultimately lose)

Wait, should I have had Base Gogeta = 20x Ultra FP? Nah, that's too outta pocket)

So it's more or less how I expected them to compare, except for SSJG which is surprisingly wimpy in GT. But hey, that's what you gets trying to make Goku God level in the first saga...

I essentially agree here, the only DIRECT comparison where it's meant to be compared that we get is the final battle of Xeno Goku vs CC Goku and they were shown to be equal from base, ss1, ss2, ss3, ss4/ssb, and ss4lb/ui sign. I like the idea that there were two paths to power that created equally powerful forms. SSG and SSB do have a sort of healing ability though which SS4 does not. SS4 on the other hand seems be better with Stamina and Ki though as Goku and Vegeta were able to remain in the form for the bulk of their battles in SDBH.

[Noah]

On the subject of SSJ4 x SSJB, do you guys think Limit Breaker SSJ4 (SDBH) is something equal to Blue Evolution?

[QuakingStar]

On the subject of SSJ4 x SSJB, do you guys think Limit Breaker SSJ4 (SDBH) is something equal to Blue Evolution?

SS4LB Goku ties UI Sign Goku in their final battle. They had tied from base, to ss1, ss2, ss3, SS4/SSB and then SS4LB/UI Sign. So it is above Blue Evolved.

[Koitsukai]

GT Base Goku being able to reach out to the farthest corners of the universe to gather ki for the genki dama vs Omega, is that some type of feat? is it telling of his power? how did he get those people to give him their energy? was it Shenlong's doing?
Or is it just another "it's on the script, nevermind" moment?

[MisteryOne]

I never really watched SDBH, but the idea of DBS and GT characters scaling to each other is very interesting to me so I decided to see if it works.

Xeno Goku is from years after the Evil Dragons Saga while CC Goku is from right after the ToP, so the SSJ4 we see in GT is probably only comparable to SSJB fighters from prior sagas.

So if SSJB = SSJ4, then I imagine SSJG would be somewhere in Baby Vegeta's ballpark? and Ultra FP SSJ4 should be in Blue KK level. SSJ4 Gogeta would logically be Vegetto Blue level, which I have far below Gogeta Blue since Goku and Vegeta are much stronger vs Broly than vs Zamasu. Omega Shenlong probably falls somewhere in UI Sign tier.

But that's just me spitballing. Let's see if I actually get to those numbers.

OBS: Don't bother bringing me calculations about how SSJG Goku's punch had a force of 19860731x10^1169 and was going to destroy the multiomniverse so he kills SSJ4 Vegetto with his aura. All that fight shows is that Goku had bad Ki control, lol. People infinitely above SSJG Goku didn't have this problem in the same series. And it's not because no one in GT did this that they can't do this.

Part 1: Finding SSJ4 = SSJB

Spoiler:

IIRC this is something that's something we actually see in SDBH, with both Gokus fighting evenly in base and in their best forms with no clear winner.

It's commonly agreed that SSJG was nerfed post BoG. The anime makes it a complete afterthought, so I think 2x SSJ3 is about enough. SSJB is obviously 50x SSJG.

Base: 1
SSJ: 50
SSJ2: 100
SSJ3: 400
SSJG: 1,000 (2.5x SSJ3 to make the numbers neat).
SSJB: 50,000

So SSJ4 will also be 50,000x base. Let's see how this works in the Baby Vegeta fight.

SSJ3 Goku: 400
~ Golden Oozaru: 4,000
~ SSJ4: 50,000

Baby Vegeta: 450 (Same 1.125x gap Vegeta had over KKx2 Goku. Goku can barely compete, and his stamina only makes it worse)
~ Strongest Form 1: 900
~ Strongest Form 2: 3,600
~ Golden Oozaru: 36,000

SSJ4 Goku fought evenly with GOBV at first, but when the others healed him and he unlocked his full power Baby was easily defeated. I think this is perfect.

Now it's doing the actual power levels. I'l use 1 = 1 billion to avoid the zeroes. First I'll do a truncated list for Super:

Scaling DBS

Spoiler:

SSJ3 Goku (Boo Saga): 36
SSJ3 Gotenks/Super Boo: 60 (Smaller multipliers for fusion, again for simplicity)
Ultimate Gohan: 90
Gotenks-Boo: 120
Gohan-Boo: 150

Vegetto: 144
~ SSJ: 360

SSJ3 Goku (BoG): 40 (Considered the strongest because Gotenks is retarded and Gohan is rusty)

Vegetto (BoG, estimated): 160
~ SSJ: 400
~ SSJ3: 1,000 (Important to measure SSJG)

SSJG Goku: 2,000
~ SSJ: 2,500 (Said he absorbed and surpassed SSJG when he fought in SSJ)
~ Base: 50

Goku (RoF): 80
~ SSJB: 4,000,000

Freeza (RoF): 5.3
~ True form (70%): 84
~ Golden form: 4,800,000

Goku (U6/Early FT Saga): 100 (This is when Copy Vegeta tanks and one shots SSJ3 Gotenks. Best Base feat in DBS?)
~ SSJB: 5,000,000

SSJR Goku Black: 6,250,000 (1.25x is the perfect gap for when the weaker guy is kinda keeping up but not really)

Enraged Goku/Enraged Trunks/Zenkai Black: 7,500,000

SSJB Vegeta (Post Rosat): 10,000,000 (Goku will reach this power vs Merged Zamasu too somehow)
SSJR Black (Peak): 15,000,000

Merged Zamasu: 10,000,000,000

Vegetto: 200,000,000 (Will explain fusion base power in DBSB)
~ SSJB: 10,000,000,000 (I like to have SSJB = 50x for fusion as a nod to how SSJB was going to replace SSJ)

Toppo: 10,000,000

SSJB Goku (ToP): 10,000,000
~ KKx20: 200,000,000
~ Genki-Dama: 400,000,000
~ UIO: 1,000,000,000

Jiren (Initial): 1,000,000,000 (Shin and Beerus were talking about his hidden FP)

Kefla: 8,000,000
~ SSJ: 400,000,000 (Compared to Genki-Dama)
~ SSJ2 (Beyond limits): 2,000,000,000 (Could've killed 2nd UIO Goku)

SSJB Goku (Mid ToP): 20,000,000 (Said multiple times to be getting stronger)
~ KKx20: 400,000,000 (Said to be = Kefla)
~ UIO: 2,000,000,000

Hakaishin Toppo: 1,000,000,000
Jiren (Serious): 10,000,000,000

SSJB Goku (End of ToP): 50,000,000
~ KKx20: 1,000,000,000
~ UIO: 5,000,000,000
~ MUI: 25,000,000,000 (Definitely the strongest mortal)

Jiren (FP): 20,000,000,000 (Strongest guy ever)
~ Limit Breaker: 24,000,000,000 (Put up a much better fight vs Goku)

Broly doesn't matter, but I'll add him to explain why I have base fusion 20x SSJB

Broly: 45,000,000
~ SSJ: 2,250,000,000
~ LSSJ: 30,000,000,000

Gogeta: 900,000,000 (90% of Gogeta. So weaker, but close enough for some ppl to ignore the gap)
~ SSJ: 2,250,000,000
~ SSJB: 45,000,000,000

You see? SSJ Fusion = 50x Individual SSJB. Since I give fusion a 2.5x SSJ multiplier, that puts base fusion at 20x SSJB.

And that's it. Phew. DBS characters get power ups left and right, meanwhile GT is very stagnant. It's easy to see why it takes a Goku from after GT to match DBS Goku.

But GT has one advantage: BoGT Goku starts very strong. It's all but confirmed he's stronger than Majin Boo (Most likely Gohan-Boo or Toei-Hax Kid Boo), while we only know DBS Goku >>> SSJ3 Gotenks in base. Of course, it's not a stretch to say Base Goku > SSJ3 Vegetto, but I tried being minimalistic to be fair with GT.

GT (Way shorter than DBS I swear)

Spoiler:

Gohan-Boo: 150 (Just to remind you)

General Rildo: 200

Goku: 200
~ SSJ: 10,000 (Already stronger than SSJG? I didn't expect that... But BoG SSJG is the first power in DBS, so whatever)
~ SSJ2: 20,000
~ SSJ3: 80,000
~ Golden Oozaru: 800,000
~ SSJ4: 10,000,000 (Equal to Toppo and half of the ToP)

Baby Vegeta: 90,000
~ Strongest Form 1: 180,000
~ Strongest Form 2: 720,000
~ Golden Oozaru: 7,200,000

Goku (S17/Evil Dragons Saga): 400 (S17 and Dragons happen back to back, so no power up in between)
~ SSJ: 20,000
~ SSJ4: 20,000,000
~ Ultra FP: 400,000,000 (Equal to U7 Genki-Dama and SSJ Kefla)

Yi Xing Long: 200,000,000 (As high as he can be bc of what I say below. Also makes sense since he tanked KHHx10)
~ DBs absorbed: 2,000,000,000 ("Only" said to be ~10x stronger after absorbing the balls. Should beat SSJ2 Kefla)

Gogeta: 360,000,000 (Explained the "multiplier" in DBS section)
~ SSJ4: 18,000,000,000 (Same as above. He could fight FP Jiren, but would ultimately lose)

Wait, should I have had Base Gogeta = 20x Ultra FP? Nah, that's too outta pocket)

So it's more or less how I expected them to compare, except for SSJG which is surprisingly wimpy in GT. But hey, that's what you gets trying to make Goku God level in the first saga...

I know I have brought this up other times, but it's just worth mentioning again: in the original arcade there is actually a way easier method to calculate how strong the Xeno versions are relative to GT, and it does actually support the idea of Super character being way stronger. The fight with Omega Shenron in the Dark King Mechikabura arc.

Xeno Gogeta specifically defeats Omega Shenron with just his SS1. Of course, it being an arcade game we never see the fight fully so it's impossible to say if he struggled or not, but I think the fact he just used vanilla Super Saiyan says a lot about the difference in power comparing to their GT versions. The Omega Shenron was also straight our of the Shadow Dragon arc, without any weird time sheanigans as it would happen later with other versions of him (Xeno Gohanks faces a Xeno Omega Shenron and wins with SS3, but it's way harder to take any clue from that, same with the Majin Omega Shenron that faces Cumber)

On the subject of SSJ4 x SSJB, do you guys think Limit Breaker SSJ4 (SDBH) is something equal to Blue Evolution?

Given the rematch between the two Gokus, I think it's pretty obvious it's more likely supposed to be on the level of UI Sign.

Of course, the Xeno duo had an insane and never explained power up between the Universe Creation arc and that rematch in the Kaioshin of Time arc (things went from Broly being able to fight both Limit Breaker Xeno Vegetto AND Blue Vegetto to a powered by dark magic Broly not being able to win against Limit Breaker Xeno Gogeta) so that should also be considered, but I think if it really was just a Blue Evolution equivalent, Vegeta would have tried to face Black Janemba himself. After all, he didn't want to contribute to the Ki donating that created the Limit Breaker forms, he even takes a while to do so in the original arcade.

To sum things up, I think it's stronger than Evolution. Making it similar to Sign seems better to me.

[Saikyō No Z Senshi]

Hello everyone!!
This is my first time posting, and I hope I’ve chosen the right discussion!!
To get straight to the point, I know that Kanzenshuu is very famous for its guides, especially the "Battle Power Guide". I really admire the work done in this regard; it’s truly a well-made guide.
The reason I’m writing, however, is that I’ve noticed the guide hasn't been updated in a long time, missing the Battle Powers of characters from some movies and the Dragon Ball Super manga… so I thought I’d like to lend you a hand: in my free time, I’ve created a series of guides covering all the Battle Powers and Multipliers from various sources, and I’d like to share them with you, so we can finally update the guide on the site (in Kanzenshuu's guide, moreover, some Battle Powers are incorrect, others are missing, and several important Multipliers are also absent).
The only thing is that my work is quite extensive, so I kindly ask if I can post a link to my Pastebin profile to avoid making over 9,000 unnecessary posts. Thank you very much!!

[Koitsukai]

Hello everyone!!
This is my first time posting, and I hope I’ve chosen the right discussion!!
To get straight to the point, I know that Kanzenshuu is very famous for its guides, especially the "Battle Power Guide". I really admire the work done in this regard; it’s truly a well-made guide.
The reason I’m writing, however, is that I’ve noticed the guide hasn't been updated in a long time, missing the Battle Powers of characters from some movies and the Dragon Ball Super manga… so I thought I’d like to lend you a hand: in my free time, I’ve created a series of guides covering all the Battle Powers and Multipliers from various sources, and I’d like to share them with you, so we can finally update the guide on the site (in Kanzenshuu's guide, moreover, some Battle Powers are incorrect, others are missing, and several important Multipliers are also absent).
The only thing is that my work is quite extensive, so I kindly ask if I can post a link to my Pastebin profile to avoid making over 9,000 unnecessary posts. Thank you very much!!

Welcome!

The Power Guide, I believe, consists only of the official numbers, so what's missing are the numbers that were never provided officialy. So, there's no way they'll be updated by users' lists here.
However, you are welcome to drop off your list in this thread, or if it's DBS-related, in the Strenght Thread, and others users will gladly comment on it.

[Saikyō No Z Senshi]

Thank you very much for getting back to me, Koitsukai!!

Regarding the Official Battle Powers issue, the level expected for Frieza after his training is missing, which is 1,300,000 (Resurrection 'F'), along with the levels for Child Broly (920), the Saiyan Sniper (2,000), and Old Paragus (4,200) from DBS Broly, as well as the level for Youth Monaito (5 to 213). Additionally, many Multipliers are missing, for example, Garlic Jr.'s and his henchmen transformed (tens of times stronger), Omega Shenron (10 times stronger than Syn Shenron), and many others… There are also various errors, such as Goku's levels (VS. Vegeta) being listed as "over 8,000", or 2nd Form Frieza being listed as "over 1,000,000", despite those levels actually being "8000 ijō" and "1000000 ijō", meaning "8,000 or more" and "1,000,000 or more". Furthermore, there are other mistakes, like Tien & co.'s "less than 1,507", which is actually "1,507", and Dodoria's 22,000 in the Daizenshū 7, which is actually "about 22,000"!! Additionally, there are also incorrect levels from video games, such as Appule's "1,500 or 1,700" (The Super Saiya Legend), which is actually "1,602", etc…

Here, then, are my Official Battle Powers:
-Manga: https://pastebin.com/a1YByBCv
-Anime: https://pastebin.com/Q8cEWjUB
-Movies: https://pastebin.com/0f6VVNh3
-Guides: https://pastebin.com/Dm3ix1iB
-Magazines: https://pastebin.com/SU2YzTpx
-Pamphlets: https://pastebin.com/0556zEiJ
-Carddasses: https://pastebin.com/n32KrERj
-Video Games: https://pastebin.com/beWveSjh
-Multipliers: https://pastebin.com/mbeKD6Ke
(All the Characters' names & the Special Attacks names I used are from Chōzenshū 4)

I know there are other Battle Powers in video games and cards, but I omitted them because they are completely illogical (created randomly)…

[Saikyō No Z Senshi]

Hello everyone again!!

It has been four whole days since I last wrote here and two days since I posted in the Staff Help Requests section, but still no one has replied to me.
I wonder where you all are…

Is there any kind soul who could kindly respond to at least one of my posts?

Thank you very much.

[DanielSSJ]

I'm not part of the Kanzenshuu staff so I can only speculate, but think updating the Battle Power Guide just isn't that high of a priority for them. If anything, we'll probably get a more up to date version when they finish the Wiki.

[RandomGuy96]

A random note on Android arc scaling:

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.5
Trunks: “They’re also somewhat different from the androids I know…They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…”

Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P1.1-3
Context: after Trunks, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Kuririn arrive
No.17: “My my, some help has arrived. Even No.18 probably won’t be able to take them all on. No choice, shall I go? Or will you go, No.16?”

Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P12.3-6
Trunks: “Am-amazing! I hadn’t realized that father was this strong…! To think that he’s able to fight on par with that outrageous android…!”
Piccolo: “Vegeta’s going to be killed…[ ] Watch…Bit by bit, the android is starting to push him back. It’s because his enemy’s power never falls at all, while Vegeta’s stamina falls the more he moves.”

As far as I've seen most people dismiss these lines stating that Vegeta is fairly close in strength to Android 18. Instead they argue that the characters are incorrect, that stamina wasn't a big factor, and that the dominance showed at the end of the fight would be the same at the beginning if 18 fought more seriously. Several official sources that have been shown to me elsewhere, however, contradict this. They directly state from an out of universe perspective that Vegeta had power close to that of Android 18, and the main factor in his loss was stamina.

Here's an excerpt from 'Dragon Ball Z: Extreme Battle Collection Round 02', page 77:

"Fighting Style
Stamina that never decreases!
In addition to her fighting power comparable to No. 17, her inexhaustible stamina is amazing! If it becomes a sustained battle, the enemy has no chance of winning.
Android 18 kicking Vegeta image: Although her fighting power is on a par with Super Saiyan Vegeta, she ultimately wins due to the difference in stamina."

From Daizenshuu 5, page 62:

"Threat! The Androids Act 5: Fierce! Completely defeated super warriors
The super warriors challenging Nos. 17&18. However, the strength of the Androids far exceeded that of the Super Saiyans.[1]

Vegeta chases No. 17 and co. as they head towards Goku's house, and engages in a fierce battle with No. 18. Vegeta was stronger than Trunks could have imagined. However, No. 18's kick broke his left arm and put him in a serious pinch. Trunks tries to rescue Vegeta when he is in danger, but is hit by a blow from No. 17. Piccolo and the others, who followed Trunks, were unable to do anything against No. 17 and were defeated. Vegeta and Trunks, who received damage, faint and return from their Super Saiyan forms to their normal forms. 17 and and co., whose purpose is to kill Goku, the strongest among humans, leave in search of Goku instead of finishing off Vegeta and the others.

Android 18 and Z warriors image: Those annoying guys are chasing me!!
Piccolo and the others rush in while Vegeta and No. 18 are fighting. Trunks, aware of No. 18's strength, advises Vegeta to run away.

Android 18 blocking SSjin Vegeta's kick image: It's not a big deal with such a weak attack
Vegeta fights evenly with No. 18. However, against No. 18, who has infinite energy, Vegeta's decreasing stamina gradually puts him at a disadvantage."
[1](some may see this as contradicting the later line about fighting evenly, but really it doesn't - it's talking about the androids as a collective compared to the Super Saiyans as a collective, three of each, and Trunks and sick Goku are both far weaker than Vegeta while 16 is far stronger than 17 and 18 who are individually already stronger than Vegeta - also stamina is effectively part of strength, more on that below)

From Daizenshuu 2, page 236:

バトル 135
ベジータvs18号

自分の強さが無視されプライドを傷つけられたベジータは、人造人間に勝負を挑む。接戦が続くが、疲れることを知らない18号が次第に有利になる。あまりにも危険な状態になったため、我慢できなかったトランクスらが助けに入るが、まったく18号の相手にはならなかった。
(巻三十・其之三百五十三)

人造人間、余裕の勝利
"Battle 135
Vegeta vs. Android 18

Vegeta, whose pride was hurt when his strength was ignored, challenges the Android to a fight. The battle continues to be close, but Android 18, who never tires, gradually gains the advantage. The situation becomes so dangerous that Trunks and the others, unable to bear it any longer, come to his aid, but he is no match for Android 18.
(Volume 30, No. 353)

The Androids Easily Win"

Over and over again, in-universe characters and out-of-universe official guidebooks say the same thing: Vegeta is almost as strong as 18, but he can't stay like that. 18 can stay that strong all the time. For anyone who's ever been in a fight or combat sports sparring session, that would be a very noticeable difference - and probably a lot more so if one's actual physical durability also dropped with energy output as is the case for the chi-powered Dragon Ball characters.

Later we learn that 17 is slightly stronger than 18, and at the start of their fight, it appears that 17 is at least slightly weaker than Piccolo (going by his comment about how soft 17's punches feel). In fact, Piccolo briefly considers the idea that he could beat all three of them (he considers it a longshot, but still). Despite that edge he basically goes through a less severe version of what Vegeta did, and by the end of the fight it appears that 17 is well on the path to victory and still smiling/sporting about it. Despite not having Super Saiyan stamina issues Piccolo still only fights for one and a half chapters before he's reduced to huffing and puffing and the net effect of this fight on 17 is tearing his jeans and bloodying his lip. Toriyama is again emphasizing what a huge advantage their stamina is, even against foes with higher peak strength than them. Piccolo's only hope here would've been a Hail Mary Light Grenade.

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P12.1
Piccolo: “…What should I do?…With No.17, No.18, and even No.16, no matter how much super power I may have obtained, I really might not be able to handle them…

Chapter: 368 (DBZ 174), P14.3
Context: after Piccolo and No.17 fight a long time
No.17: “Heh. Even if our power is on par, it looks like a gap is starting to open up between our stamina…My energy is infinite, and never falls…”

(On a side note, considering that Piccolo was tired and wounded when Cell attacked them and both he and 17 are at least durable enough to take a few hits from him and fast enough to dodge him when he's not sneaking up, the disparity in power between Imperfect Cell and the androids is likely exaggerated by a lot of power level lists as well. We don't even see what he does to survive the Light Grenade, if he flared his ki for defense a la several characters in OG Dragon Ball or even just dodged the main blast and only took some of the AOE. Not to mention some of those hits he landed on 17 were 12-6 elbows to the back of the head, particularly nasty blows I'd expect to have a horrible effect on even someone on par with you, much less weaker.)

Reading the chapters back I actually think this makes a considerable amount of sense. Characters keep bringing up how fast Super Saiyan's power drains and Goku considers getting a handle on that to be the #1 priority, before even raising his power, something Vegeta calls out as brilliant. The only other times we see OG Super Saiyan used in battle it's against guys they finish quickly, guys who have similar stamina problems, or both.

This seems to match what Toriyama does later with Super Saiyan 3 as well (SS3 Goku is on par with Pure Buu at first but quickly loses stamina and after a brief bout Buu is just toying with him), and how he handles the new Super Saiyan forms in Dragon Ball Super. The Super manga repeatedly makes the point that Super Saiyan Blue has a crippling stamina weakness and rapidly bleeds power after hitting its peak. When characters are able to keep that peak output continuously in later chapters they suddenly appear to be a whole lot stronger, functionally. Which technically they are; e.g. 100 units sustained over 100 seconds is 10,000 units of output, whereas 100 units sustained over 10 seconds and dropping by a tenth every decile after that is only 5,400 units of output over the same time. I think Toriyama was drawing on the same idea back then.

tl;dr: the androids are likely only slightly stronger than the Super Saiyans in terms of peak output, and Piccolo is slightly stronger than the androids, but the disparity in stamina makes the difference in peak output between the androids and Super Saiyans appear much bigger than it actually is.

[QuakingStar]

A random note on Android arc scaling:

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.5
Trunks: “They’re also somewhat different from the androids I know…They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…”

Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P1.1-3
Context: after Trunks, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Kuririn arrive
No.17: “My my, some help has arrived. Even No.18 probably won’t be able to take them all on. No choice, shall I go? Or will you go, No.16?”

Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P12.3-6
Trunks: “Am-amazing! I hadn’t realized that father was this strong…! To think that he’s able to fight on par with that outrageous android…!”
Piccolo: “Vegeta’s going to be killed…[ ] Watch…Bit by bit, the android is starting to push him back. It’s because his enemy’s power never falls at all, while Vegeta’s stamina falls the more he moves.”

As far as I've seen most people dismiss these lines stating that Vegeta is fairly close in strength to Android 18. Instead they argue that the characters are incorrect, that stamina wasn't a big factor, and that the dominance showed at the end of the fight would be the same at the beginning if 18 fought more seriously. Several official sources that have been shown to me elsewhere, however, contradict this. They directly state from an out of universe perspective that Vegeta had power close to that of Android 18, and the main factor in his loss was stamina.

Here's an excerpt from 'Dragon Ball Z: Extreme Battle Collection Round 02', page 77:

"Fighting Style
Stamina that never decreases!
In addition to her fighting power comparable to No. 17, her inexhaustible stamina is amazing! If it becomes a sustained battle, the enemy has no chance of winning.
Android 18 kicking Vegeta image: Although her fighting power is on a par with Super Saiyan Vegeta, she ultimately wins due to the difference in stamina."

From Daizenshuu 5, page 62:

"Threat! The Androids Act 5: Fierce! Completely defeated super warriors
The super warriors challenging Nos. 17&18. However, the strength of the Androids far exceeded that of the Super Saiyans.[1]

Vegeta chases No. 17 and co. as they head towards Goku's house, and engages in a fierce battle with No. 18. Vegeta was stronger than Trunks could have imagined. However, No. 18's kick broke his left arm and put him in a serious pinch. Trunks tries to rescue Vegeta when he is in danger, but is hit by a blow from No. 17. Piccolo and the others, who followed Trunks, were unable to do anything against No. 17 and were defeated. Vegeta and Trunks, who received damage, faint and return from their Super Saiyan forms to their normal forms. 17 and and co., whose purpose is to kill Goku, the strongest among humans, leave in search of Goku instead of finishing off Vegeta and the others.

Android 18 and Z warriors image: Those annoying guys are chasing me!!
Piccolo and the others rush in while Vegeta and No. 18 are fighting. Trunks, aware of No. 18's strength, advises Vegeta to run away.

Android 18 blocking SSjin Vegeta's kick image: It's not a big deal with such a weak attack
Vegeta fights evenly with No. 18. However, against No. 18, who has infinite energy, Vegeta's decreasing stamina gradually puts him at a disadvantage."
[1](some may see this as contradicting the later line about fighting evenly, but really it doesn't - it's talking about the androids as a collective compared to the Super Saiyans as a collective, three of each, and Trunks and sick Goku are both far weaker than Vegeta while 16 is far stronger than 17 and 18 who are individually already stronger than Vegeta - also stamina is effectively part of strength, more on that below)

From Daizenshuu 2, page 236:

バトル 135
ベジータvs18号

自分の強さが無視されプライドを傷つけられたベジータは、人造人間に勝負を挑む。接戦が続くが、疲れることを知らない18号が次第に有利になる。あまりにも危険な状態になったため、我慢できなかったトランクスらが助けに入るが、まったく18号の相手にはならなかった。
(巻三十・其之三百五十三)

人造人間、余裕の勝利
"Battle 135
Vegeta vs. Android 18

Vegeta, whose pride was hurt when his strength was ignored, challenges the Android to a fight. The battle continues to be close, but Android 18, who never tires, gradually gains the advantage. The situation becomes so dangerous that Trunks and the others, unable to bear it any longer, come to his aid, but he is no match for Android 18.
(Volume 30, No. 353)

The Androids Easily Win"

Over and over again, in-universe characters and out-of-universe official guidebooks say the same thing: Vegeta is almost as strong as 18, but he can't stay like that. 18 can stay that strong all the time. For anyone who's ever been in a fight or combat sports sparring session, that would be a very noticeable difference - and probably a lot more so if one's actual physical durability also dropped with energy output as is the case for the chi-powered Dragon Ball characters.

Later we learn that 17 is slightly stronger than 18, and at the start of their fight, it appears that 17 is at least slightly weaker than Piccolo (going by his comment about how soft 17's punches feel). In fact, Piccolo briefly considers the idea that he could beat all three of them (he considers it a longshot, but still). Despite that edge he basically goes through a less severe version of what Vegeta did, and by the end of the fight it appears that 17 is well on the path to victory and still smiling/sporting about it. Despite not having Super Saiyan stamina issues Piccolo still only fights for one and a half chapters before he's reduced to huffing and puffing and the net effect of this fight on 17 is tearing his jeans and bloodying his lip. Toriyama is again emphasizing what a huge advantage their stamina is, even against foes with higher peak strength than them. Piccolo's only hope here would've been a Hail Mary Light Grenade.

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P12.1
Piccolo: “…What should I do?…With No.17, No.18, and even No.16, no matter how much super power I may have obtained, I really might not be able to handle them…

Chapter: 368 (DBZ 174), P14.3
Context: after Piccolo and No.17 fight a long time
No.17: “Heh. Even if our power is on par, it looks like a gap is starting to open up between our stamina…My energy is infinite, and never falls…”

(On a side note, considering that Piccolo was tired and wounded when Cell attacked them and both he and 17 are at least durable enough to take a few hits from him and fast enough to dodge him when he's not sneaking up, the disparity in power between Imperfect Cell and the androids is likely exaggerated by a lot of power level lists as well. We don't even see what he does to survive the Light Grenade, if he flared his ki for defense a la several characters in OG Dragon Ball or even just dodged the main blast and only took some of the AOE. Not to mention some of those hits he landed on 17 were 12-6 elbows to the back of the head, particularly nasty blows I'd expect to have a horrible effect on even someone on par with you, much less weaker.)

Reading the chapters back I actually think this makes a considerable amount of sense. Characters keep bringing up how fast Super Saiyan's power drains and Goku considers getting a handle on that to be the #1 priority, before even raising his power, something Vegeta calls out as brilliant. The only other times we see OG Super Saiyan used in battle it's against guys they finish quickly, guys who have similar stamina problems, or both.

This seems to match what Toriyama does later with Super Saiyan 3 as well (SS3 Goku is on par with Pure Buu at first but quickly loses stamina and after a brief bout Buu is just toying with him), and how he handles the new Super Saiyan forms in Dragon Ball Super. The Super manga repeatedly makes the point that Super Saiyan Blue has a crippling stamina weakness and rapidly bleeds power after hitting its peak. When characters are able to keep that peak output continuously in later chapters they suddenly appear to be a whole lot stronger, functionally. Which technically they are; e.g. 100 units sustained over 100 seconds is 10,000 units of output, whereas 100 units sustained over 10 seconds and dropping by a tenth every decile after that is only 5,400 units of output over the same time. I think Toriyama was drawing on the same idea back then.

tl;dr: the androids are likely only slightly stronger than the Super Saiyans in terms of peak output, and Piccolo is slightly stronger than the androids, but the disparity in stamina makes the difference in peak output between the androids and Super Saiyans appear much bigger than it actually is.

Before the Super Saiyan form is mastered, the users stamina and ki drop over time much faster than if they DO master the form. Though on the other hand, Vegeta took a senzu bean right before he went to fight 18 and she broke his arm easily with one kick. So unless we are saying his stamina dropping drastically lowered his durability too then it's just inconsistent.

[Hugo Boss]

Stamina and peak output are indeed critical factors, but I think the Androids’ advantage over the Super Saiyans is more than just a matter of endurance. Piccolo’s strength over Android 17, for example, seems less about peak output and more about his skill and resourcefulness in battle, as seen during their extended fight.

[Mr Perfect Cell]

18 thought vegeta was nothing special during their fight and even after when vegeta was beating cell she thought vegeta was "pretending to be weak" against her.

[LightBing]

tl;dr: the androids are likely only slightly stronger than the Super Saiyans in terms of peak output, and Piccolo is slightly stronger than the androids, but the disparity in stamina makes the difference in peak output between the androids and Super Saiyans appear much bigger than it actually is.

That's my interpretation as well. It's fairly blatant with all the lines posted.

Even visually we see him trade blows fairly. The problem was the damage he inflicted had no effect while the damage he took did.
Infinite stamina isn't just that, they were also virtually immune to damage which as we know reduces power.

The Androids are just broken. Really only Boo compares and I think even him was starting to lose regeneration power against Vegetto.

[p-hyvo]

A random note on Android arc scaling:

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.5
Trunks: “They’re also somewhat different from the androids I know…They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…”

Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P1.1-3
Context: after Trunks, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Kuririn arrive
No.17: “My my, some help has arrived. Even No.18 probably won’t be able to take them all on. No choice, shall I go? Or will you go, No.16?”

Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P12.3-6
Trunks: “Am-amazing! I hadn’t realized that father was this strong…! To think that he’s able to fight on par with that outrageous android…!”
Piccolo: “Vegeta’s going to be killed…[ ] Watch…Bit by bit, the android is starting to push him back. It’s because his enemy’s power never falls at all, while Vegeta’s stamina falls the more he moves.”

As far as I've seen most people dismiss these lines stating that Vegeta is fairly close in strength to Android 18. Instead they argue that the characters are incorrect, that stamina wasn't a big factor, and that the dominance showed at the end of the fight would be the same at the beginning if 18 fought more seriously. Several official sources that have been shown to me elsewhere, however, contradict this. They directly state from an out of universe perspective that Vegeta had power close to that of Android 18, and the main factor in his loss was stamina.

Here's an excerpt from 'Dragon Ball Z: Extreme Battle Collection Round 02', page 77:

"Fighting Style
Stamina that never decreases!
In addition to her fighting power comparable to No. 17, her inexhaustible stamina is amazing! If it becomes a sustained battle, the enemy has no chance of winning.
Android 18 kicking Vegeta image: Although her fighting power is on a par with Super Saiyan Vegeta, she ultimately wins due to the difference in stamina."

From Daizenshuu 5, page 62:

"Threat! The Androids Act 5: Fierce! Completely defeated super warriors
The super warriors challenging Nos. 17&18. However, the strength of the Androids far exceeded that of the Super Saiyans.[1]

Vegeta chases No. 17 and co. as they head towards Goku's house, and engages in a fierce battle with No. 18. Vegeta was stronger than Trunks could have imagined. However, No. 18's kick broke his left arm and put him in a serious pinch. Trunks tries to rescue Vegeta when he is in danger, but is hit by a blow from No. 17. Piccolo and the others, who followed Trunks, were unable to do anything against No. 17 and were defeated. Vegeta and Trunks, who received damage, faint and return from their Super Saiyan forms to their normal forms. 17 and and co., whose purpose is to kill Goku, the strongest among humans, leave in search of Goku instead of finishing off Vegeta and the others.

Android 18 and Z warriors image: Those annoying guys are chasing me!!
Piccolo and the others rush in while Vegeta and No. 18 are fighting. Trunks, aware of No. 18's strength, advises Vegeta to run away.

Android 18 blocking SSjin Vegeta's kick image: It's not a big deal with such a weak attack
Vegeta fights evenly with No. 18. However, against No. 18, who has infinite energy, Vegeta's decreasing stamina gradually puts him at a disadvantage."
[1](some may see this as contradicting the later line about fighting evenly, but really it doesn't - it's talking about the androids as a collective compared to the Super Saiyans as a collective, three of each, and Trunks and sick Goku are both far weaker than Vegeta while 16 is far stronger than 17 and 18 who are individually already stronger than Vegeta - also stamina is effectively part of strength, more on that below)

From Daizenshuu 2, page 236:

バトル 135
ベジータvs18号

自分の強さが無視されプライドを傷つけられたベジータは、人造人間に勝負を挑む。接戦が続くが、疲れることを知らない18号が次第に有利になる。あまりにも危険な状態になったため、我慢できなかったトランクスらが助けに入るが、まったく18号の相手にはならなかった。
(巻三十・其之三百五十三)

人造人間、余裕の勝利
"Battle 135
Vegeta vs. Android 18

Vegeta, whose pride was hurt when his strength was ignored, challenges the Android to a fight. The battle continues to be close, but Android 18, who never tires, gradually gains the advantage. The situation becomes so dangerous that Trunks and the others, unable to bear it any longer, come to his aid, but he is no match for Android 18.
(Volume 30, No. 353)

The Androids Easily Win"

Over and over again, in-universe characters and out-of-universe official guidebooks say the same thing: Vegeta is almost as strong as 18, but he can't stay like that. 18 can stay that strong all the time. For anyone who's ever been in a fight or combat sports sparring session, that would be a very noticeable difference - and probably a lot more so if one's actual physical durability also dropped with energy output as is the case for the chi-powered Dragon Ball characters.

Later we learn that 17 is slightly stronger than 18, and at the start of their fight, it appears that 17 is at least slightly weaker than Piccolo (going by his comment about how soft 17's punches feel). In fact, Piccolo briefly considers the idea that he could beat all three of them (he considers it a longshot, but still). Despite that edge he basically goes through a less severe version of what Vegeta did, and by the end of the fight it appears that 17 is well on the path to victory and still smiling/sporting about it. Despite not having Super Saiyan stamina issues Piccolo still only fights for one and a half chapters before he's reduced to huffing and puffing and the net effect of this fight on 17 is tearing his jeans and bloodying his lip. Toriyama is again emphasizing what a huge advantage their stamina is, even against foes with higher peak strength than them. Piccolo's only hope here would've been a Hail Mary Light Grenade.

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P12.1
Piccolo: “…What should I do?…With No.17, No.18, and even No.16, no matter how much super power I may have obtained, I really might not be able to handle them…

Chapter: 368 (DBZ 174), P14.3
Context: after Piccolo and No.17 fight a long time
No.17: “Heh. Even if our power is on par, it looks like a gap is starting to open up between our stamina…My energy is infinite, and never falls…”

(On a side note, considering that Piccolo was tired and wounded when Cell attacked them and both he and 17 are at least durable enough to take a few hits from him and fast enough to dodge him when he's not sneaking up, the disparity in power between Imperfect Cell and the androids is likely exaggerated by a lot of power level lists as well. We don't even see what he does to survive the Light Grenade, if he flared his ki for defense a la several characters in OG Dragon Ball or even just dodged the main blast and only took some of the AOE. Not to mention some of those hits he landed on 17 were 12-6 elbows to the back of the head, particularly nasty blows I'd expect to have a horrible effect on even someone on par with you, much less weaker.)

Reading the chapters back I actually think this makes a considerable amount of sense. Characters keep bringing up how fast Super Saiyan's power drains and Goku considers getting a handle on that to be the #1 priority, before even raising his power, something Vegeta calls out as brilliant. The only other times we see OG Super Saiyan used in battle it's against guys they finish quickly, guys who have similar stamina problems, or both.

This seems to match what Toriyama does later with Super Saiyan 3 as well (SS3 Goku is on par with Pure Buu at first but quickly loses stamina and after a brief bout Buu is just toying with him), and how he handles the new Super Saiyan forms in Dragon Ball Super. The Super manga repeatedly makes the point that Super Saiyan Blue has a crippling stamina weakness and rapidly bleeds power after hitting its peak. When characters are able to keep that peak output continuously in later chapters they suddenly appear to be a whole lot stronger, functionally. Which technically they are; e.g. 100 units sustained over 100 seconds is 10,000 units of output, whereas 100 units sustained over 10 seconds and dropping by a tenth every decile after that is only 5,400 units of output over the same time. I think Toriyama was drawing on the same idea back then.

tl;dr: the androids are likely only slightly stronger than the Super Saiyans in terms of peak output, and Piccolo is slightly stronger than the androids, but the disparity in stamina makes the difference in peak output between the androids and Super Saiyans appear much bigger than it actually is.

This is an actually inter sting post, nice work. Never thought it that way

[RandomGuy96]

Random ass question:

Is there any indication that anyone in the 22nd Budokai arc besides the two finalists and Roshi have surpassed Tao Paipai? Knowing that Tao was about on par with (but slightly inferior to) end-of-arc RRA Goku. I'd think Crane Hermit (power level of 120 given in Weekly Jump) and 22nd Budokai Roshi (power level of 139 given in Daizenshuu 7) are both supposed to be stronger than him, because the former's his older brother and the latter easily beats the former, but there's no confirmation. Previously I'd thought that Krillin and Yamcha thinking they might have a chance against Goku indicated they were at least as strong as Tao Paipai themselves, if not stronger, and by extension that Chappa was too (since they thought he'd be a tough fight for Goku)... but thinking about it, they've literally never met, fought, or sensed Tao Paipai. So how would they know how strong he was?

I think Tao would still be a huge deal in this arc. Not enough to seriously trouble Goku, Tenshinhan, or Roshi of course, but probably stronger than everyone else in the ring and enough to make them fight at their actual strength rather than "match level." Crane Hermit has this to say when watching Goku easily hand Krillin his ass. Specifically, this is right after Goku does a rush attack so quick that Krillin can't even see Goku dancing around him, before he knocks Krillin out of the ring with one hit:

[snip long post]

This is an older post I made but there's a key piece of evidence here I overlooked. In Goku's fight with Tenshinhan at the 23rd Budokai, Ten uses the multi-form technique and knocks Goku around a bit. Goku counters and wins when he "figures out" that each of his four clones are only 1/4 as strong and fast as the original Tenshinhan, who is himself weaker than Goku.

Chapter: 179, P14.1
Context: Goku explains the weaknesses' of the Shishin-no-Ken technique
Goku: “That ain’t like you to make a mistake like that, Tenshinhan. It was an amazin’ strategy to become 4 people. But by splitting into 4 people, your attack, defense, speed, and everything got divided in 4 too."

Actually going back and reading chapter 179 - everyone is utterly SHOCKED to learn this. They had no idea. They take Goku noticing this as evidence of his fighting genius.

Let me repeat that.No one noticed that a character was 1/4 as powerful as they were 30 seconds ago, despite them still actively fighting. Being able to discern a x4 difference in power is explicitly unusual and impressive to the likes of Krillin, Yamcha, and Tenshinhan.

This completely clinches it for me. Acting like everyone is capable of immediately accurately discerning everyone's battle power just by "sensing ki" is explicitly wrong in the case of pre-Raditz DB. They judge each other's powers by movement and past reputation - and are pretty shitty at the former considering no one but Goku noticed that Tenshinhan was suddenly 1/4 as fast either.

Tao would wipe out the entirety of the 22nd Budokai and Piccolo Daimao arc besides Piccolo, Goku, Ten, and Drum, and is in the same tier as Crane Hermit and post time skip Roshi. I think this mostly because of how his brother and student talk about him (people who should be familiar with his power from sparring) but also because of how Toriyama clearly and obviously uses him as a measuring stick in this arc out of universe. Defeating Tao is repeatedly used as proof that Goku surpassed Crane Hermit and Roshi.

[Koitsukai]

Since the androids are being discussed, I have a question for the forum.
Android 17 says that 18 won't be able to fight off all of the Z-fighters on her own... however, he jumps in and they pretty much one-shot everybody, including SS Trunks. She barely even flinches when breaking his sword, and then takes out both SS.
Vegeta was the toughest one and the only one that kept coming back, and she had him covered.

So, I don't see how she would've struggled if Piccolo and Ten were thrown into the mix, she would've dealt with them. A-17's help didn't seem like some key element to the fight nor something she wouldn't have been able to do herself. It didn't look like 17 was actually needed.

Were the androids overrating the gang or A-18 would've in fact met her match if 17 didn't jump in?

[Almighty Majin]

Since the androids are being discussed, I have a question for the forum.
Android 17 says that 18 won't be able to fight off all of the Z-fighters on her own... however, he jumps in and they pretty much one-shot everybody, including SS Trunks. She barely even flinches when breaking his sword, and then takes out both SS.
Vegeta was the toughest one and the only one that kept coming back, and she had him covered.

So, I don't see how she would've struggled if Piccolo and Ten were thrown into the mix, she would've dealt with them. A-17's help didn't seem like some key element to the fight nor something she wouldn't have been able to do herself. It didn't look like 17 was actually needed.

Were the androids overrating the gang or A-18 would've in fact met her match if 17 didn't jump in?

The Androids have 2 major advantages against the team:

1. They have infinite stamina and thus, will be able to outlast their opponents.
2. They have the battle data of said opponents so they are able to read their every move.

Even if Android 18 = SSJ Vegeta, the fact that she can outlast him along with being able to read his fighting style should make up the difference.

My thoughts on this are that the Androids probably can only process one fighting style at a time. Think of something like a program being run in the background, like VegetaFightingStyle.Exe, only one can be run at a time. Thus, facing multiple opponents at once may prove to be too much since the power difference is not too large.

This is why once teamed up together, 17 and 18 can take on an entire team since it is not a singular cyborg taking up the load of adapting to a fighting style, they can easily switch on command. This would also explain why 17 and 18 together managed to completely destroy the Dragon Team in the future so efficiently. If it were just one of them, perhaps they would not be able to adjust fast enough and would be overwhelmed as 17 suggested.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The difference in power between Piccolo and 17 was unnoticeable, they were matching each other blow for blow. On the other hand, while Vegeta was keeping up with 18, his attacks were doing nothing; now that's a noticeable difference. These two fights aren't comparable at all.

Let's put it this way: Piccolo is much stronger than Vegeta. Piccolo equals the Androids. Therefore, the Androids are much stronger than Vegeta. Infinite stamina was just the cherry on top.

This is an older post I made but there's a key piece of evidence here I overlooked. In Goku's fight with Tenshinhan at the 23rd Budokai, Ten uses the multi-form technique and knocks Goku around a bit. Goku counters and wins when he "figures out" that each of his four clones are only 1/4 as strong and fast as the original Tenshinhan, who is himself weaker than Goku.

Chapter: 179, P14.1
Context: Goku explains the weaknesses' of the Shishin-no-Ken technique
Goku: “That ain’t like you to make a mistake like that, Tenshinhan. It was an amazin’ strategy to become 4 people. But by splitting into 4 people, your attack, defense, speed, and everything got divided in 4 too."

Actually going back and reading chapter 179 - everyone is utterly SHOCKED to learn this. They had no idea. They take Goku noticing this as evidence of his fighting genius.

Let me repeat that.No one noticed that a character was 1/4 as powerful as they were 30 seconds ago, despite them still actively fighting. Being able to discern a x4 difference in power is explicitly unusual and impressive to the likes of Krillin, Yamcha, and Tenshinhan.

This completely clinches it for me. Acting like everyone is capable of immediately accurately discerning everyone's battle power just by "sensing ki" is explicitly wrong in the case of pre-Raditz DB. They judge each other's powers by movement and past reputation - and are pretty shitty at the former considering no one but Goku noticed that Tenshinhan was suddenly 1/4 as fast either.

Tao would wipe out the entirety of the 22nd Budokai and Piccolo Daimao arc besides Piccolo, Goku, Ten, and Drum, and is in the same tier as Crane Hermit and post time skip Roshi. I think this mostly because of how his brother and student talk about him (people who should be familiar with his power from sparring) but also because of how Toriyama clearly and obviously uses him as a measuring stick in this arc out of universe. Defeating Tao is repeatedly used as proof that Goku surpassed Crane Hermit and Roshi.

I agree with your placement of Tao and that their ability to sense Ki was very rudimentary back then, but that scene was just making the others stupid so Goku could look smart. Tenshinhan should've known he was weaker regardless of sensing Ki, and he showed the ability to sense Ki in the last saga anyway. Kuririn and Yamcha clearly can't sense Ki, however. They're always clueless about everything.