Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

It does?

Well, Shin > Piccolo can still be retconned but Base Goku > Shin is clear.

[Yuji]

Way too early Daima PL list:

Goku (Mini): 260
-- Super Saiyan: 13,000
-- Eventual SS2: 26,000
-- Eventual SS3: 104,000

Gendarmerie soldiers/Average demon warrior: 50-100

Glorio (suppressed): 225
-- Full power (w/magic): 2,250

Minotaur: 230

Panzy: 5

Excited to see how wrong I'll be once everything is said and done. But I think everything has been scaled back to literal part 1 levels. Flight and Ki blasts are impressive skills, fighters and soldiers use common weapons, Goku is heavily nerfed from his child proportions, the environment and not being able to transform and maintain Super Saiyan as easily.

Basically that they are weaker has been made more than clear, how weak is debatable but I don't think anyone besides the Dragon Team so far would scratch Namek arc battle powers. Toriyama has always made a big deal out of Namek arc scaling, any time he introduces characters he compares them directly to Namek arc characters, or finds complex reasonings and backstories as to why they're stronger than what we saw on Namek. I think he genuinely intends Namek battle powers to be an average representation of the peak of most people in his universe.

Gendarmerie soldiers can't fly, so they should be weaker than Freeza's army (~1,000) and even your average Saiyan (300+). Goku takes them on but still struggles with huge numbers so it's not like he's ridiculously stronger than all of them. I think thematically it makes sense that Goku would be the same as his peak as a child in the Daimao arc, and it's also neat to think that Daimao could have been a legitimate ruler in this realm.

Glorio is clearly portrayed as a competent warrior somewhere between base and SS Goku, so likening him to the average elite warrior in U7 (~2,000+) seems fair. Panzy seems like a normal little girl but her demonic genetics and magic should at least put her at the same level as the average human.

At least for now I'm more than confident in this scale. Let's see if the Tamagami fights shake things up for me. I see folks making the assumption they're stronger than Dabra but that presupposes that a) Dabra would be interested in collecting the dragon balls at all, or b) that Dabra was as strong or nearly as strong as we saw prior to Babidi's magic. Until any direct comparisons to the Boo arc or other characters are made, I think the scaling has been purposefully reduced.

I'm assuming battle powers will progress as we get further into the realms however. With Realm 2 being home to the Namekians (BP of 3,000 for the elite soldiers) and Glinds (regular Kaio also around that level), other species should have comparable BPs, and in Realm 1 we should start approaching the Ginyu at least.

I should have waited another episode before making this post

I guess everyone is pretty much at the same level as they were as adults. I doubt they got much stronger from the Boo arc.

The Tamagamis should be between Dabra and Boo, since Boo is feared and respected in the demon realm. Goku was using SS2 in one of the trailers, so I assume he debuts it next episode.

[QuakingStar]

I don't think they are all so far ahead of their Buu Arc selves. Gohan stopped training immediately following Kid Buu's defeat, and Goku even points out how Gohan has secluded himself away to study, so while Goku and Vegeta have trained I think Goku being considered stronger than Gohan now is because of a combo of Gohan not training at all, and Goku training every day.

[dbgtFO]

It does?

Well, Shin > Piccolo can still be retconned but Base Goku > Shin is clear.

Maybe back against Buu millions of years ago, Shin really was powerful enough to one shot Freeza, but in modern times, he lost most of his power and is weaker than base level??
Lol but seriously even in the Buu arc people always questioned statements relating to power about him, because unlike Trunks, he didn't have power specific feats.
I wouldn't be surprised if Toriyama had already changed his mind about him back then and is just continuing on with that here.

[Almighty Majin]

Well, Shin > Piccolo can still be retconned but Base Goku > Shin is clear.

I am sure that Shin > Piccolo will be retconned, but we shall see. Seeing as Base Goku > Shin, certain interpretations must be re-evaluated. At what point was Freeza surpassed then? Do you think it happened after the 3 years training for the Androids? Piccolo mentioned to the group that if they could not contribute to the fight to not show up with full knowledge of Freeza, King Cold, the power of Super Saiyan, and the fact that the Androids were superior. Is it possible that everyone who showed up surpassed Freeza at that point?

Also Goku > Shin in the Buu arc makes the power jump in base during Super much less insane.

[ZombieVito]

Well, Shin > Piccolo can still be retconned but Base Goku > Shin is clear.

I am sure that Shin > Piccolo will be retconned, but we shall see. Seeing as Base Goku > Shin, certain interpretations must be re-evaluated. At what point was Freeza surpassed then? Do you think it happened after the 3 years training for the Androids? Piccolo mentioned to the group that if they could not contribute to the fight to not show up with full knowledge of Freeza, King Cold, the power of Super Saiyan, and the fact that the Androids were superior. Is it possible that everyone who showed up surpassed Freeza at that point?

Also Goku > Shin in the Buu arc makes the power jump in base during Super much less insane.

Well, Daizenshuu states the kids displayed power on par with 18 so I guess they surpassed Freeza at the very least after their first trip to the RoSaT.

[Hugo Boss]

Well, Daizenshuu states the kids displayed power on par with 18 so I guess they surpassed Freeza at the very least after their first trip to the RoSaT.

I think it says they were equal because the kids were handicapped. Without the restraints, Goten and Trunks probably wouldn’t need the RoSaT to surpass No.18.

[ZombieVito]

Well, Daizenshuu states the kids displayed power on par with 18 so I guess they surpassed Freeza at the very least after their first trip to the RoSaT.

I think it says they were equal because the kids were handicapped. Without the restraints, Goten and Trunks probably wouldn’t need the RoSaT to surpass No.18.

I meant Goku, Vegeta and Future Trunks.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I wouldn't be surprised if Shin > Piccolo was retconned since even back in the original series he was portrayed as helpless and weak, but RoF really beats you over the head with the Base Gohan > Piccolo stuff so that retcon would be redundant.

[RandomGuy96]

I will note again that Piccolo is explicitly weaker than Zarbon in Resurrection F and also gets tired out fighting soldiers that Jaco can beat. And in the same movie Gohan is unsure if he can even turn Super Saiyan and then drops it after one punch.

Stop fighting it with headcanon and accept it. A lot of the cast got massively weaker. Toriyama's conception just seems to be what they get super weak but then spike back up to their former peaks again with relatively little training.

[dbgtFO]

I will note again that Piccolo is explicitly weaker than Zarbon in Resurrection F and also gets tired out fighting soldiers that Jaco can beat. And in the same movie Gohan is unsure if he can even turn Super Saiyan and then drops it after one punch.

Stop fighting it with headcanon and accept it. A lot of the cast got massively weaker. Toriyama's conception just seems to be what they get super weak but then spike back up to their former peaks again with relatively little training.

I wonder if 1.3 million had a special meaning or if he really thought that sounded impressive enough for an expected post training Freeza.
It's never referenced again and Freeza didn't claim that he actually ended up more powerful than expected, leading to the idea that he did indeed reach his goal 1.3 million and nothing more.

Considering how much it takes a dump on previously established powerscaling, it's fun to imagine Toriyama did this to troll everyone who overobsess about this.

This was undoubtedly the nail in the coffin for the people who think Toriyama was some infallible God of powerscaling consistency. He never was and that's ok.

For me I find it better to judge these things within their own arcs, because come the next arc, Toriyama would probably change things around in accordance with which characters he wanted to favour.
I do not believe this retcons their strength from previous arcs just that in the new arc, if they don't get special attention drawn to their power, I have no reason to believe their power carried over.

[Yuji]

I will note again that Piccolo is explicitly weaker than Zarbon in Resurrection F and also gets tired out fighting soldiers that Jaco can beat. And in the same movie Gohan is unsure if he can even turn Super Saiyan and then drops it after one punch.

Stop fighting it with headcanon and accept it. A lot of the cast got massively weaker. Toriyama's conception just seems to be what they get super weak but then spike back up to their former peaks again with relatively little training.

I wonder if 1.3 million had a special meaning or if he really thought that sounded impressive enough for an expected post training Freeza.
It's never referenced again and Freeza didn't claim that he actually ended up more powerful than expected, leading to the idea that he did indeed reach his goal 1.3 million and nothing more.

It was just Toriyama having no clue how strong characters got. He wasn't purposefully trolling fans, the line is played completely straight. So much so that the anime staff realized how ridiculous it sounded and removed it from the anime adaptation (along with, I believe, the mention of Shisami's battle power too?).

I don't think it's unfair to claim the original manga had pretty decent scaling, all things considered, but anything beyond it should be taken with a grain of salt, especially when they're blatantly stupid.

[ZombieVito]

I will note again that Piccolo is explicitly weaker than Zarbon in Resurrection F and also gets tired out fighting soldiers that Jaco can beat. And in the same movie Gohan is unsure if he can even turn Super Saiyan and then drops it after one punch.

Stop fighting it with headcanon and accept it. A lot of the cast got massively weaker. Toriyama's conception just seems to be what they get super weak but then spike back up to their former peaks again with relatively little training.

Shisami is not Zarbon tier in Toriyama's script.

[Hugo Boss]

I will note again that Piccolo is explicitly weaker than Zarbon in Resurrection F and also gets tired out fighting soldiers that Jaco can beat. And in the same movie Gohan is unsure if he can even turn Super Saiyan and then drops it after one punch.

Stop fighting it with headcanon and accept it. A lot of the cast got massively weaker. Toriyama's conception just seems to be what they get super weak but then spike back up to their former peaks again with relatively little training.

Shisami is not Zarbon tier in Toriyama's script.

According to Volume 'F', at least, he was.

Spoiler:

Tagoma
A warrior who serves under Sorbet. His strength rivals that of Zarbon and Dodoria.

Tagoma's design: The ones with different colors are slightly newer ones, and are made of new materials, but most of the soldiers are wearing the same old uniforms.

Toriyama's comment: The scouter is a new model (a prototype, to be precise). It's less likely to fall off, and all of its functions have been improved. It also carries more information, but those who are used to conventional scouters still seem a little hesitant to use both eyes.

Spoiler:

Shisami
A warrior of the new Frieza army. Among Sorbet's subordinates, he is as strong as Tagoma.

Shisami's image: His fighting power is enough to torment Piccolo!
A formidable opponent with the power to match Piccolo!

Also, Dragon Ball Weekly Character Showcase reiterated that data. So, the implication is most likely that Piccolo ended up being matched with Zarbon and Dodoria in the movie.

[ZombieVito]

Wait, what the hell?

Shisami is not even in the room when that was said. He's first mentioned on Earth after Toriyama notes Freeza hired powerful mercenaries to fill up the ranks.

Good thing Toei fixed this.

[QuakingStar]

That is one hell of a mistake. Piccolo was FAR above Dodoria and Zarbon when he first showed up to Namek, before even fusing with Nail. Toei really does make mistakes themselves, but I am SO happy wheneve they do fix the manga authors mistakes.

[RandomGuy96]

I will note again that Piccolo is explicitly weaker than Zarbon in Resurrection F and also gets tired out fighting soldiers that Jaco can beat. And in the same movie Gohan is unsure if he can even turn Super Saiyan and then drops it after one punch.

Stop fighting it with headcanon and accept it. A lot of the cast got massively weaker. Toriyama's conception just seems to be what they get super weak but then spike back up to their former peaks again with relatively little training.

I wonder if 1.3 million had a special meaning or if he really thought that sounded impressive enough for an expected post training Freeza.
It's never referenced again and Freeza didn't claim that he actually ended up more powerful than expected, leading to the idea that he did indeed reach his goal 1.3 million and nothing more.

I think the 1.3 million line and no one including Freeza ever saying he was off in his prediction (he would definitely brag about it if he got a thousand times stronger than he expected) is another pretty solid indication that Toriyama is just working on the assumption that everyone got weaker, along with Zarbon being an undefeatable monster to everyone there, everyone getting tired out fighting soldiers Jaco can beat, Gohan barely being able to turn Super Saiyan, and later scenes from Super like characters getting hurt by regular bullets.

[Yuji]

I will note again that Piccolo is explicitly weaker than Zarbon in Resurrection F and also gets tired out fighting soldiers that Jaco can beat. And in the same movie Gohan is unsure if he can even turn Super Saiyan and then drops it after one punch.

Stop fighting it with headcanon and accept it. A lot of the cast got massively weaker. Toriyama's conception just seems to be what they get super weak but then spike back up to their former peaks again with relatively little training.

I wonder if 1.3 million had a special meaning or if he really thought that sounded impressive enough for an expected post training Freeza.
It's never referenced again and Freeza didn't claim that he actually ended up more powerful than expected, leading to the idea that he did indeed reach his goal 1.3 million and nothing more.

I think the 1.3 million line and no one including Freeza ever saying he was off in his prediction (he would definitely brag about it if he got a thousand times stronger than he expected) is another pretty solid indication that Toriyama is just working on the assumption that everyone got weaker, along with Zarbon being an undefeatable monster to everyone there, everyone getting tired out fighting soldiers Jaco can beat, Gohan barely being able to turn Super Saiyan, and later scenes from Super like characters getting hurt by regular bullets.

Why would you assume Toriyama purposefully wrote it so everyone got weaker, to Namek arc levels - even though Gohan is the only one referenced to have gotten weaker - and not that he simply did not realize how strong the characters were?

The end result may be the same but one implies authorial intent in a way I don't think you can argue Toriyama was conscious of.

[DBZ Macky]

Additionally, there are also incorrect levels from video games, such as Appule's "1,500 or 1,700" (The Super Saiya Legend), which is actually "1,602", etc…

Can I get a source on this? Like a screenshot of the game? I couldn't find this number for Appule anywhere else.

[Yuji]

What do you guys make of the comparison between Trunks and CG Gohan?

The fact that Gohan is still a benchmark probably means their base battle powers haven't increased much at all from the Cell Games. This fits with Trunks' statement later in the arc that Goku and Vegeta have achieved their limit long ago through zenkai boosts and conventional training.

In the Boo arc, most already acknowledge that although Goku got stronger than Gohan in the same forms, the increase wasn't that much.

So if between the Cell Games and Boo arc, Goku got 10 or 15% stronger, then between Boo and Zamasu, he got another 5 or 10% in base form.

They seem to get stronger post Namek not by strengthening their base battle powers significantly but by unlocking new forms and mastering the ones they have.

Prior to the Moro arc at least, which is where I believe they've made significant increases to all forms via the UI and spirit training which are more unconventional.