Unpopular DB opinions

[Psajdak]

I absolutely love recognizable legendary seiyu (especially those affiliated with Aoni) from Dragon Ball, but I can't help but think that if Dragon Ball is to have any future, it should be rebooted from the beginning, with new (younger) cast, different direction, and overall updated feel of the series, so to speak.

Ending of Super felt quite final, Super Broly movie is a nice addition, and Moro arc holds potential for a good anime season, but characters endlessly becoming stronger, and stronger, new antagonists that pretty much only have some gimmick about them, it just feels ridiculous, and pointless.

I can't say I know about many versions of popular superhero franchises as some people, but from what I do know, most of those versions have their whole, concluded stories, and then some new version / story is introduced.

[WittyUsername]

Then I don't think you're looking enough because there were moments like one of the fighters turning out to be really tiny and difficult to see, thus giving the appearance of invisibility. There was Gohan lifting that one fat yellow fighter off the ground using his punches thus negating his opponent's advantage. And there's a great twist on a classic moment - Freeza gives a near death Goku his energy.

Thing is, I loved seeing Goku continually pass his limits in this context because it wasn't just him transforming. He kept fighting hidden depths because he fought to the point of exhaustion and kept going.

There are some creative techniques used in that arc. I can’t argue about that, but they’re not enough to make the majority of the fighting stand out all that much. Besides, the tiny fighter (Damon) doesn’t really amount to much, since he and the invisible fighter (Gamisaras) are just treated as villains of the week, and they get taken out fairly easily. Frankly, Universe 4 in general was a waste of potential. They could’ve served as an interesting contrast to Universe 11, in that they’re a universe of relatively weak fighters who rely on tricks and underhanded tactics to get the job done, but they’re shoved to the background for much of the arc, and get taken out with little fanfare.

Also, I don’t see what you’re talking about regarding Goku not transforming. He does transform. UI is treated as a transformation, and results in a change in appearance. The only real difference this time is that it’s not explicitly a Saiyan transformation.

[ABED]

It doesn't need to amount to much. Give characters standout moments, use them to good effect, etc. but that doesn't always mean using them a lot. In a weekly story, even a serialized one, villains of the week are often good. Sometimes characters only need to serve a functional purpose in the story, not a dramatic one. There are TWELVE universes in DB and not all of them are going to make much of an impact nor should they. Storytelling is all about selectivity. Some characters or universes will be in the background and that's okay otherwise the episode count will balloon to One Piece proportions.

I'm aware that they treat it as a transformation but UI isn't the only instance of Goku surpassing his limits. He gets exhausted after fighting Jiren the first time and when he fights Ribrianne and her universe, he pushes through the exhaustion. It isn't just "I unlocked more hidden power" or a cheap power up. He's digging down deep through mental fortitude and pushing through the pain. He's pulling out what was already there. And while even UI is visualized as a transformation, it's shown to not just be greater power.

[Skar]

I remember someone a while back when Kai first started doing an even shorter cut where they tried to get the pacing even more in line with the manga and in the end, it basically cut any sort of beat where "nothing happened". Problem is there's no sense of pacing, it all feels so rushed so no, I have ZERO interest in watching a 12 episode TOP. Generally speaking I'm fine with cutting stuff out to make a story shorter but that is fine to a point. Past a certain point, nothing breathes and it all feels rushed.

Well that was 12 episodes for the tournament itself so maybe closer to 20 episodes for the entire arc if he included the introduction, preliminary round, and gathering of the contestants. I agree it's good to have breathing room but it was meant to be a fast paced battle royale which we didn't really get because U7 had more eliminations than all the other universes combined. The only way that works story wise is if most contestants were waiting to fight them and barely attacking each other. I wouldn't mind if it was more of a free-for-all like the classic Battle Royale film. Toriyama's outline for the arc was said to be barebones so Toei had to expand a lot of it but I don't feel it justified being a 55 episode arc.

I don't see how anyone can get into Z after getting used to so many seasonal anime that cover their material properly. Z is a very outdated model of adapting manga that will turn anyone off who's used to today's standards of pacing.

DB/Z and YYH were the longest anime I've ever watched and I've usually stuck with shorter anime since then. That might be the reason I didn't mind Kai's pacing and could only recall a few episodes of filler that I missed mostly in the Saiyan saga.

[Matches Malone]

DB/Z and YYH were the longest anime I've ever watched and I've usually stuck with shorter anime since then.

Both DB and YYH had fine pacing, with minor issues here and there. Z on the other hand is just terrible. There was no excuse for things to be dragged out as much as they were, especially on Namek.

[jamiljamtheman]

Hot take of the day: Transformations are part of what make Dragon Ball what it is. I am glad that the new transformation train didn’t stop after Battle of Gods, because strength and power represented through physical or visual transformation has been at this series’s core ever since the latter arcs of Z.

I don’t really know if this is unpopular in the big picture, since most fan work tends to include a new transformation of some kind and I think it’s for this reason, but I felt like getting it out there anyway. SSB has grown on me and I generally dig it, the KK addition, and especially SSBE and both levels of UI.

[ABED]

It was meant to be but battle royales are only so interesting because after a while it becomes a clusterfuck and you stop caring. Perhaps it should start out as one but as the numbers start dwindling then have fights pair off making fights easier to follow and easier to invest in emotionally. What I love about the tournament's structure is it allows for all sorts of interesting team ups and uneasy alliances since it's not good guys vs. bad guys.

I'm a wrestling fan and one of the things I loved in the 90s was Vince McMahon vs. Stone Cold Steve Austin. It's fundamentally the same set up as good guy vs. Manager and his stable of bad guys or some faction. It's the small band of good guys against the multitude of baddies. In this case though, Vince owns the company. He can send anyone after Austin, even an ally.

At the tournament of power, everyone has a very to understand and empathetic motivation - survival. Dramatically it's very clear.

[WittyUsername]

It doesn't need to amount to much. Give characters standout moments, use them to good effect, etc. but that doesn't always mean using them a lot. In a weekly story, even a serialized one, villains of the week are often good. Sometimes characters only need to serve a functional purpose in the story, not a dramatic one. There are TWELVE universes in DB and not all of them are going to make much of an impact nor should they. Storytelling is all about selectivity. Some characters or universes will be in the background and that's okay otherwise the episode count will balloon to One Piece proportions.

I'm aware that they treat it as a transformation but UI isn't the only instance of Goku surpassing his limits. He gets exhausted after fighting Jiren the first time and when he fights Ribrianne and her universe, he pushes through the exhaustion. It isn't just "I unlocked more hidden power" or a cheap power up. He's digging down deep through mental fortitude and pushing through the pain. He's pulling out what was already there. And while even UI is visualized as a transformation, it's shown to not just be greater power.

Doesn’t Goku “surpass his limits” like that on a regular basis? I don’t see how that arc is any different in that regard.

[ABED]

I don't think it was necessarily different from every other example, but it's certainly more interesting than when he got a power up.

[Skar]

It was meant to be but battle royales are only so interesting because after a while it becomes a clusterfuck and you stop caring. Perhaps it should start out as one but as the numbers start dwindling then have fights pair off making fights easier to follow and easier to invest in emotionally. What I love about the tournament's structure is it allows for all sorts of interesting team ups and uneasy alliances since it's not good guys vs. bad guys.

Do you have examples of battle royales that became a clusterfuck? To be honest, I've only seen Battle Royale and a few heavily inspired by it but they had a similar format and started as more of a free-for-all until there fewer characters then had more individual battles.

The ToP was the most one-sided battle royale I've seen since like I said U7 had more eliminations than the other seven universes combined. Of course I didn't expect the eliminations to be evenly distributed among the universes but there were many times where I wondered what the other characters were doing when U7 did most of the fighting. For example, Jiren decided to meditate after beating Goku and telling Dyspo and Toppo the rest was up to them but I recall Dyspo mostly running around the arena and Toppo not doing much of anything until Jiren woke up and it was their turn to fight U7. I remember other characters who disappear for a while until it was time to go up against U7. BR took place on an island while the ToP was in an arena so all the contestants were in fairly close proximity.

We've heard that DBS had a rushed production which I feel might've been a reason why Toei went with this format for the ToP. If it was more of an battle royale it would've been difficult to have it last as long. I could be wrong but I assume they couldn't have made it shorter since it had to stay on the air until the next anime taking over it's timeslot. The recruitment portion alone was almost as long as the entire Champa arc.

[ABED]

Granted it's mostly wrestling related but I don't like battle royals for this very reason. They all are a clusterfuck until the end. The only enjoyable parts of the Royal Rumble are the anticipation of who will be the next entrant and drama of the final few contestants. The rest of it is just a boring collection of bodies in the same place trying to throw each other out for nearly an hour. That gets boring really quickly.

The ToP was the most one-sided battle royale I've seen since like I said U7 had more eliminations than the other seven universes combined.

So? We know it was ultimately going to come down to U7 and the Pride Troopers.

[WittyUsername]

If I recall correctly, there was speculation back in the day that Universe 6 would come out on top, at least on these forums. I believe this was before Universe 6 started losing a bunch of fighters, though.

[ArmenianPepsi]

I remember someone a while back when Kai first started doing an even shorter cut where they tried to get the pacing even more in line with the manga and in the end, it basically cut any sort of beat where "nothing happened".

Could this be what you're thinking of? --> viewtopic.php?f=6&t=34866

There is a section dedicated to a Kai Recut

[ABED]

If I recall correctly, there was speculation back in the day that Universe 6 would come out on top, at least on these forums. I believe this was before Universe 6 started losing a bunch of fighters, though.

That's like betting Rocky wouldn't defeat Clubber Lang.

[Psajdak]

I just want for Toriyama to get high, and retcon Yamcha into a human with Saiyan roots, cause hair explanation.

[WittyUsername]

If I recall correctly, there was speculation back in the day that Universe 6 would come out on top, at least on these forums. I believe this was before Universe 6 started losing a bunch of fighters, though.

That's like betting Rocky wouldn't defeat Clubber Lang.

Beerus did defeat Goku...

[MasenkoHA]

I just want for Toriyama to get high, and retcon Yamcha into a human with Saiyan roots, cause hair explanation.

Gohan did look more like Yamcha than Goku...

[Skar]

So? We know it was ultimately going to come down to U7 and the Pride Troopers.

It would help to quote the person so they get a notification. Anyway I'm not sure how this addresses the rest of my comment. It was obvious the main antagonists were going to be the Pride Troopers but that wouldn't prevent the rest of the tournament from being more of a battle royale until that final showdown. I don't think we would've missed out on much if all the universes were going at it and that resulted in most of the weaker contestants being eliminated. U7 would still have the same major battles that most people still remember and it would feel like more of a fight for survival since the other universes are actively fighting and not so many are waiting for U7.

As a wrestling fan, you may have enjoyed the format Toei went with more but I'm only offering my opinion that a BR could work. I understand if every attempt at a BR was a boring critical failure but that isn't the case. The manga ToP was rushed in some parts but there were only a handful of contestants that I thought were eliminated too quickly and enjoyed or remembered their fight in the anime. I think an ideal version would've been in the middle and not as rushed as the manga but doesn't drag on as much as the anime.

[LoganForkHands73]

If I recall correctly, there was speculation back in the day that Universe 6 would come out on top, at least on these forums. I believe this was before Universe 6 started losing a bunch of fighters, though.

That's like betting Rocky wouldn't defeat Clubber Lang.

That wouldn't be too dumb of a bet considering that Rocky lost in the first movie and barely scraped a Jackie Chun-style win in the second, assuming that's what you meant.

Anyway, I think the (anime) Universe Survival arc is severely underrated around these parts of the internet. I enjoyed the hell out of it and it really gave me that boost to get back into Dragon Ball. I'm not a total shill, I acknowledge its prevalent flaws but it was probably the biggest Dragon Ball-related cultural phenomenon since Battle of Gods, maybe since the original series in general. It's crazy that so many people know about Ultra Instinct even if many don't care that much about Dragon Ball as a whole. The idea that none of the characters develop in Super is undermined by the amount of genuine growth we see throughout the tournament. Even the so-called #FlatCharacter Goku gets his fair share with the Ultra Instinct developments alone, but the arc sees him begin as his stereotypical selfish flanderised self and slowly regain a more mature outlook, learning to prioritise both his friends and the fight. It ties in with an overriding theme, which is that you don't always have to throw away something important in order to have something else - sometimes you can have your cake and eat it too. You see it with Vegeta, 17, Freeza, Toppo and eventually Jiren (I can elaborate but I gotta go).

I'm glad ABED mentioned the Goku stamina thing, because that's another oft-criticised aspect of the arc that I unironically enjoyed. There's something inspiring about Goku's sheer determination in this arc especially. He gets knocked down, worn out, drained of all stamina, his fucking back explodes in a shower of blood... but he still stands up. Yeah, it might be silly and hard to swallow for some. But I love it.

This isn't going to be too bold of an opinion but I did, deep down, enjoy most of the Super anime post-movie adaptations despite all the flaws. While my opinion of the Future Trunks arc has decreased since I first saw it, my views of the Universe 6 and Universe Survival arcs have never really wavered. The anime gave us some pretty great one-shot filler episodes, albeit along with some really bad filler like the Copy Vegeta arc.

[ABED]

If I recall correctly, there was speculation back in the day that Universe 6 would come out on top, at least on these forums. I believe this was before Universe 6 started losing a bunch of fighters, though.

That's like betting Rocky wouldn't defeat Clubber Lang.

Beerus did defeat Goku...

But you knew he wasn't actually going to destroy the world. He lost the battle but achieved his goal. No way the story is going to end with Goku and his universe being blinked out of existence.

That wouldn't be too dumb of a bet considering that Rocky lost in the first movie and barely scraped a Jackie Chun-style win in the second, assuming that's what you meant.

Rocky wasn't trying to win in the first one. He's just trying to stay on his feet for the length of the match. He achieves his goal through sheer force of will. Had he actually won it would've gone against the entire point of the story.

It would help to quote the person so they get a notification.

Why does anyone care if I do or don't?