Unpopular DB opinions

[Kamiccolo9]

No, not always, but most of the time, yes. You don't have to judge something correct every time to be reliable, just enough times, and Goku is very good at sizing up his opponents. When did he misjudge pure Buu?

He underestimated Vegeta's toughness, and would have been killed if it weren't for his son.
He underestimated Freeza, and would have been killed if he hadn't become a Super Saiyan.
He had Karin measure Cell's strength, to double check his own thoughts.
Even after this, he underestimated Cell's full strength, and only Gohan's dominance over Cell kept him from killing everybody.
He overestimated Gohan's strength against Dabura, even though he's already had numerous occasions to sense his strength.
He underestimated Dabura.
He didn't know that Majin Vegeta would match his SSJ2 form, even though he had already sensed him as a SSJ1, and should know how powerful SSJ2 is.
He underestimated how powerful Gotenks would be (the first time Gotenks fought Fat Buu, he lost.)
He underestimated Pure Buu.

[TheGmGoken]

No, not always, but most of the time, yes. You don't have to judge something correct every time to be reliable, just enough times, and Goku is very good at sizing up his opponents. When did he misjudge pure Buu?

He underestimated Vegeta's toughness, and would have been killed if it weren't for his son.
He had Karin measure Cell's strength, to double check his own thoughts.
Even after this, he underestimated Cell's full strength, and only Gohan's dominance over Cell kept him from killing everybody.
He didn't know that Majin Vegeta would match his SSJ2 form, even though he had already sensed him as a SSJ1, and should know how powerful SSJ2 is.
He underestimated how powerful Gotenks would be (the first time Gotenks fought Fat Buu, he lost.)
He underestimated Pure Buu.

He didn't underestimate Vegeta. He himself said the Kaioken x4 kamehameha wasn't strong enough to finish him off. How can anyone think that Vegeta would take a Genki Dami and live. Goku was counting on Gohan's anger anyways. He needed to know Cell's power to a degree to see if his plan would work. Once again he counted on Gohan's hidden power to beat 100% Cell. Maybe SSJ Main Vegeta wasn't at full power. Did Goku even know Vegeta had SSJ2? He overestimated Gotenks not underestimated. He thought he was going to beat Fat Boo. That's overestimating. Pure Boo was changing his power more than a cat in heat during a dry summer day while watching 2 pigs and 1 mud.

[Saiga]

He didn't underestimate Vegeta. [] How can anyone think that Vegeta would take a Genki Dami and live.

You contradicted yourself there.

[Kamiccolo9]

He didn't underestimate Vegeta. [] How can anyone think that Vegeta would take a Genki Dami and live.

You contradicted yourself there.

You're right about the Gotenks one though. I meant overestimate. The point is, feeling another's power is hardly an exact science.

[ABED]

No, not always, but most of the time, yes. You don't have to judge something correct every time to be reliable, just enough times, and Goku is very good at sizing up his opponents. When did he misjudge pure Buu?

He underestimated Vegeta's toughness, and would have been killed if it weren't for his son.
He underestimated Freeza, and would have been killed if he hadn't become a Super Saiyan.
He had Karin measure Cell's strength, to double check his own thoughts.
Even after this, he underestimated Cell's full strength, and only Gohan's dominance over Cell kept him from killing everybody.
He overestimated Gohan's strength against Dabura, even though he's already had numerous occasions to sense his strength.
He underestimated Dabura.
He didn't know that Majin Vegeta would match his SSJ2 form, even though he had already sensed him as a SSJ1, and should know how powerful SSJ2 is.
He underestimated how powerful Gotenks would be (the first time Gotenks fought Fat Buu, he lost.)
He underestimated Pure Buu.

How is double checking somehow not being sure? It never hurts to get an expert opinion even when you're sure.
He knew Freeza outclassed him, but there was no other choice. He was the only option left.
He knew Cell was strong, but he knew GOhan was overwhelmingly stronger. And he always knew he would lose to Cell.
I don't recall him underestimating Dabura that much. He looked a tad surprised but he didn't have a huge look of worry on his face, otherwise he would've stepped in.
The only thing he didn't count on is Vegeta changing, but he was pretty sure Vegeta had him outmatched. If Gohan was pushed, I don't think Dabura would've won.
I don't recall the Majin Vegeta thing.
I don't think he thought he underestimated Pure Buu that much. He knew he was fighting a losing battle.
Did he say he thought Gotenks could win in his base form?

The Genki dama wasn't at full power, had it been, Vegeta would've died.

I never claimed it was exact, but he typically knows if he can beat his opponent

[TheGmGoken]

He didn't underestimate Vegeta. [] How can anyone think that Vegeta would take a Genki Dami and live.

You contradicted yourself there.

Wasn't the Genki Dami weaken..? Contradicted myself? You must be crazier than a goose running wild in the country farms while carrying a turkey that's eating frozen milk on his back

[Kamiccolo9]

No, not always, but most of the time, yes. You don't have to judge something correct every time to be reliable, just enough times, and Goku is very good at sizing up his opponents. When did he misjudge pure Buu?

He underestimated Vegeta's toughness, and would have been killed if it weren't for his son.
He underestimated Freeza, and would have been killed if he hadn't become a Super Saiyan.
He had Karin measure Cell's strength, to double check his own thoughts.
Even after this, he underestimated Cell's full strength, and only Gohan's dominance over Cell kept him from killing everybody.
He overestimated Gohan's strength against Dabura, even though he's already had numerous occasions to sense his strength.
He underestimated Dabura.
He didn't know that Majin Vegeta would match his SSJ2 form, even though he had already sensed him as a SSJ1, and should know how powerful SSJ2 is.
He underestimated how powerful Gotenks would be (the first time Gotenks fought Fat Buu, he lost.)
He underestimated Pure Buu.

How is double checking somehow not being sure? It never hurts to get an expert opinion even when you're sure.

He wasn't sure. He said that's what he thought. He never gets a second opinion any other time.

He knew Freeza outclassed him, but there was no other choice. He was the only option left.

Not at the beginning of their fight. They were both holding back, and Goku didn't believe that Freeza was using less than half of his power. And then he was sure Freeza died from the Genki Dama, but he underestimated him.

He knew Cell was strong, but he knew GOhan was overwhelmingly stronger. And he always knew he would lose to Cell.

Look at his reaction when Cell powers up to his max. He's concerned, even with SSJ2 Gohan out there. So he's obviously having trouble comparing them.

I don't recall him underestimating Dabura that much. He looked a tad surprised but he didn't have a huge look of worry on his face, otherwise he would've stepped in.

At first he said that Dabura was as strong as Cell. Later he said that Dabura was a lot stronger than he originally thought.
The only thing he didn't count on is Vegeta changing, but he was pretty sure Vegeta had him outmatched. If Gohan was pushed, I don't think Dabura would've won.

I don't recall the Majin Vegeta thing.

Vegeta goes from SSJ1 to SSJ2, and Goku is surprised at how much stronger he's gotten.

I don't think he thought he underestimated Pure Buu that much. He knew he was fighting a losing battle.

He says after the first round with Buu that he was a lot stronger than he thought.

Did he say he thought Gotenks could win in his base form?

He said that Gotenks could win. He didn't.

The Genki dama wasn't at full power, had it been, Vegeta would've died.

He still thought that the attack had beaten Vegeta. Oops.
I never claimed it was exact, but he typically knows if he can beat his opponent[/quote]
Especially if they are much weaker than him. Those are the ones he tends to get right.

[ABED]

Regardless of how spot on his predictions are, Goku always finds a way, even if it is luck, but as Muten Roshi said, luck is part of being a good fighter, or something to that effect. If Goku thinks the little guys can be counted on, then I would put my trust in the guy who was responsible for saving the world many times over. Clearly he knows what he's doing if he keeps coming up against impossible odds and overcoming them.

[Kamiccolo9]

He was surprised but not shocked by Vegeta's strength, and he knows he's still stronger.

You're saying that Goku should have known how strong Gotenks was by estimating Goten and Trunks' battle powers for whatever the fusion formula is, but he was surprised at Vegeta doubling his, when Goku knows from experience what SSJ2 does?

Goku was right about Vegeta, he just didn't know how right he was that he was outclassed.

He thought that the Genki Dama beat Vegeta. He was wrong.

Cell - he was a tad surprised but I never got the impression he thought Gohan was gonna lose. Even when Gohan's arm was shattered he told his son that he was absolutely positive he would win.

A tad? He's shocked and stuttering.

Chapter: 409 (DBZ 215), P8.2-4
Context: after Cell powers up
Goku: “S-so we finally get to see Cell fight at full power”
Kuririn: “This ki is so astounding, it’s like the entire Earth is shaking.”
Gohan: “What’s the big deal?”
Gohan was still in very little danger of losing. The fight hadn't progressed to that point, and Gohan was holding his own.

Look at Goku's face in the manga when Cell powers up.

What about fighting Piccolo

What about him? He never makes an estimate here.

, or the renewed Piccolo Daimao

Goku couldn't sense ki then.

, Nappa, Ginyu (he didn't know he could switch bodies, so it wasn't a matter of strength),

Like I said earlier, he was perfectly fine at measuring powers when they were way weaker than he was.

Cell? Yes I do think he sized up Cell properly. He may not have known how big the gap was, but he did know there was a sizable gap between his and Gohan's powers, and if he wasn't so damn sure, he wouldn't have trained the way he did or rested as much.

Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P11.1-7
Goku: “But how am I compared to Cell?!”
Karin: “Hmm… You always ask the most difficult questions… As I said, this is only speculation…but honestly…I’m afraid Cell is still a bit stronger.”
Yajirobe: “This Cell guy must be a terrible bastard!...”
Goku: “I thought so. I guessed right! Thanks, Master Karin!”

Korin said he was "a bit stronger than Goku," and Goku agreed with him. We know from the events that took place that Cell was much stronger than Goku.

Showing momentary surprise doesn't mean he was wrong or completely off base.

Sure it does. His impressions were wrong.

Regardless of how spot on his predictions are, Goku always finds a way, even if it is luck, but as Muten Roshi said, luck is part of being a good fighter, or something to that effect. If Goku thinks the little guys can be counted on, then I would put my trust in the guy who was responsible for saving the world many times over. Clearly he knows what he's doing if he keeps coming up against impossible odds and overcoming them.

If his predictions are often wrong, then why should we accept that he's absolutely right about Goten and Trunks' fusion being enough to stop Buu?

[TheGmGoken]

Fat Boo is a good villain

[Kamiccolo9]

Fat Boo is a good villain

I agree. He's different, and, IMO, he's funny. I liked him more than all of the other Buus.

[TheGmGoken]

Fat Boo is a good villain

I agree. He's different, and, IMO, he's funny. I liked him more than all of the other Buus.

Funny. FOr people who say Birsu is a good villain(well Anti Hero if you can say) should say the same about Fat Boo. They have similar personas. Both are kinda similar to Kid Goku and early Adult Goku(Goku up to turning ssj). I don't see what makes Birsu any differ than Fat Boo besides his Job.

[RandomGuy96]

i think that Super Buu is the best Buu. Though I'm pretty sure that's the popular opinion. He's competing for the spot of my favorite villain in the series.

[ABED]

No, it doesn't matter that it was retconned. The retconned result is the final product. And it's a retcon that doesn't create a plothole or contradiction with the story - Goku gives a reason for why he did what he did, which is consistent with what we know of him.

He tells Piccolo he couldn't win, I'd say that's evidence enough. There's no reason to lie to Piccolo in that moment other than Toriyama wrote Goku being sincere, but later changed it to fit his story so Goku could plausibly fight a stronger opponent. It absolutely matters that it was retconned. How is Goku lying to Piccolo about not being about to defeat an opponent when he could have consistent with what we know of him. Any explanation he gave to the matter seems like a huge stretch. I don't think Goku would've fought Vegeta the way he did knowing Buu would've popped out unless Toriyama hadn't thought ahead to SS3.

If Goku's ability to read powers can't be trusted, how come we're automatically assuming he was right about defeating Buu?

If you don't think Goku's a complete scumbag, it sure sounds like it. He let Buu be revived, he didn't kill him when he had the chance, and cared more about an alien kid, a dog and a liar more than his children or friend. That seems to be your beef with him. Given what we know about Goku, that's not consistent with his character. We know he loves his friends and family, and the Earth. Goku does take risks, I would even agree that they are irresponsible risks to an extent, but when the chips are down, Goku finds a way to win, even if he needs help. I'd trust him with my life in a heartbeat.

[rereboy]

He didn't underestimate Vegeta. [] How can anyone think that Vegeta would take a Genki Dami and live.

You contradicted yourself there.

Most of the power of the Genki Dama was lost and Goku was only able to pass what remained to Krillin, it was their only hope (no other choice) and Goku had his body broken.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Goku clearly isn't reliable when he misjudged Pure Boo.

It's been said lots of times that Boo's ki isn't normal, it's "like a lie".

Yes, but you missed by point. The consequences to him killing Boo were just made up. The story gives no reason for why he can't kill Boo and THEN teach them fusion.

I didn't. Like I said before, if Goku had to fight with Boo to the death, he would have to stay as a Super Saiyan 3 for much longer, since Boo isn't an opponent that can die easily. And if he had stayed SS3 for too long, his time in the Living World would most likely run out.

He doesn't need knowledge of it. He should know from experience that villains can power up in new and exciting ways, because that's happened time and time again.

Freeza could do it because he was suppressing his true power through transformations. Cell could do it through absorbing two specific people. The Saiyans can do it because they are Saiyans. But what does he know about Boo? He is just a fat, pink, childish, overpowered demon that can make you candy & regenerate from almost everything.

It's still irresponsible to let Boo continue killing the human population.

Dragon Balls. And we are talking about being a bad father now, not hero.

Doesn't matter. In-universe answer is that Piccolo overrates Gotenks despite his ki.

For like, 2 seconds.

[ABED]

I said Goku was good at sizing up his opponent, not that he could tell their battle power. He was right about Gohan defeating Cell, he knew he couldn't beat Vegeta, he knew he could defeat Piccolo Daimao and his offspring, he knew Freeza had him outmatched, but had to fight, there was no other option. He was right that he could defeat Nappa. Sure he was stronger, but as you said, enemies can have power boosts. I still hold that he was right about Dabura given how Gohan was doing, which wasn't bad at all.

Contrast that with Piccolo who thought he had Freeza beat after he fused, or Vegeta who's constantly wrong, or Gohan who constantly doubts himself.

Here's an unpopular opinion: I don't think Tenshinhan's original japanese voice actor is that interesting. He's a fine actor but his voice isn't memorable. I prefer John Burgmeier.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

No, not always, but most of the time, yes. You don't have to judge something correct every time to be reliable, just enough times, and Goku is very good at sizing up his opponents. When did he misjudge pure Buu?

He underestimated Vegeta's toughness, and would have been killed if it weren't for his son.

*Fight Starts*

*First exchange*

Goku: Wow, we've just started and his power and speed have already greater than mine!

Goku clearly isn't reliable when he misjudged Pure Boo.

It's been said lots of times that Boo's ki isn't normal, it's "like a lie".

When was that said? Curious, its a great description.

Here's an unpopular opinion: I don't think Tenshinhan's original japanese voice actor is that interesting. He's a fine actor but his voice isn't memorable. I prefer John Burgmeier.

I'll back you on that one. *Looks at current avatar* Oh snap!

Fat Boo is a good villain

Agreement; his looking so funny after all the hype Buu gets up to that point was practically a twist in itself.

If I can piggyback, I don't see what's wrong with his Funi dub voice at all. Even if you call it exaggerated or annoying, well, that is character.

[Kamiccolo9]

No, not always, but most of the time, yes. You don't have to judge something correct every time to be reliable, just enough times, and Goku is very good at sizing up his opponents. When did he misjudge pure Buu?

He underestimated Vegeta's toughness, and would have been killed if it weren't for his son.

*Fight Starts*

*First exchange*

Goku: Wow, we've just started and his power and speed have already greater than mine!

I was referring to later on, after he got hit by the Genki Dama and everyone assumed he was dead. If Gohan hadn't gone ape on him, Vegeta would have killed everyone then.

[ABED]

If I can piggyback, I don't see what's wrong with his Funi dub voice at all. Even if you call it exaggerated or annoying, well, that is character

I never found Fat Buu annoying. He's rather cute. He looks like a giant piece of taffy.