Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

[FindKenshi]

Personally I think Goku got an awesome showing in Death Battle.. I feel like he wouldn't have, if Kanzenshuu had not gotten involved.

[rereboy]

The Flash's speed is fundamentally internalized. The Speed Force is more or less just an explanation and justification for it. Regardless of the presence of the Speed Force, the Flash is at his core a guy who's really fast.

Actually, no. In the DC / Marvel crossover, Flash couldn't use his speed force in the marvel universe, which made him as fast as any other human. Quicksilver on the hand, who is a speeder because he is a mutant, was as fast in the DC universe as he was the marvel universe (but in the DC universe Flash was faster than him). So, that's a bad example.

Well no, that was just an artistic choice because the story hinged on the two worlds being incompatible. They could have just as easily let Flash keep his speed and it wouldn't have messed anything up. I'm talking powers that if they're kept have inescapable logical conflict. Helios can't keep his power to raise the sun in Dragon Ball's world not because he loses his power there but because his power literally can't function unless you rewrite how the sun works.

So you're dismissing one of the few if not the only official source of how Flash would operate in the marvel universe because the authors could have chosen to do something else. Ok... I happen to think that with enough imagination, any author can make practically any situation work, offering the necessary explanations, so I don't see how what an author could have acted can be used as an argument for anything...

Anyway, I wasn't disagreeing with your point, I was just saying that you chose a poor example to illustrate what you were trying to say since there is a glaring example of that character operating in direct contrast to what you were stating.

[TonyTheTiger]

So you're dismissing one of the few if not the only official source of how Flash would operate in the marvel universe because the authors could have chosen to do something else.

Yes, because "the speed force doesn't work in the Marvel universe" is a plot point based purely on creative choice. "Helios can't raise the sun in the Dragon Ball universe" is factual requirement. There's no choice involved at all. Helios can't do it because the sun doesn't work that way in Dragon Ball. Unless Helios's powers mutate to let him figuratively "raise the sun" by moving the planet or sun around (creating even more problems in the process), there's no way to reconcile the logical conflict between his powers and the physics and basic reality of the surrounding universe. It's very different from "No speed force in Marvel." Think about the difference between the two and it's easy to see why I've drawn the line I have.

Anyway, I wasn't disagreeing with your point, I was just saying that you chose a poor example to illustrate what you were trying to say since there is a glaring example of that character operating in direct contrast to what you were stating.

It's not in contrast. It's a clear illustration of the distinction I'm making. Flash gets his speed from the speed force, right? That's the explanation. Well, you write a crossover with another story and decide "no speed force in this other universe." Great, you've made a choice. There's nothing inherent about the Marvel Universe that makes Flash's super speed or anything about the speed force impossible to reconcile so it's purely optional. Whether the speed force works in the other universe or not, you aren't going to run into any logic problems. It'd be like if someone wrote a story that says Superman's powers don't work in another universe just because. Anyone can do that. But consider Helios raising the sun. Cross Helios into another universe that has a sun like ours. Well, if you let him keep his powers then when he "raises the sun" what the fuck is he actually doing? How can this possibly work? Suddenly things don't seem so optional now, right?

Comparing the Speed Force as handled in JLA/Avengers to a hypothetical DBZ/GoW crossover is a perfect way to illustrate the difference. One is an issue of plot needs. The other is about basic logic and reasoning. Flash could have been allowed to use his powers in the Marvel Universe and it could still make sense. Helios can't be allowed to use all his powers in DBZ because otherwise it wouldn't make sense. That's the difference. Flash can technically take his powers (speed force or not) "with him" to wherever a Death Battle is staged since they have no inherent conflicts. A lot of the gods in GoW can't because their powers often do. If you want to let the GoW characters keep all their powers the only option is to stage the fight on their home turf or in a world that's sufficiently similar.

[Rocketman]

Which means any Death Battle involving GoW that doesn't do that is intellectually dishonest. As is the crap about the GoW gods being "weak".

"Bloodlusted Goku can blow up the planet eleventy-billion times!"

"Ares turns Goku into a rooster."
"Ares is Bloodlust, so getting angry only makes Goku Ares' slave."
"Ares claps his hands and Goku bursts into flames."
"Ares, as a God, is invincible to mortal attacks, no matter how powerful."

"None of that applies. Goku gets all of his powers and Ares gets none of his. Goku wins! HAHA YOU WEAKLING :smug:"

[dbzfan7]

Which means any Death Battle involving GoW that doesn't do that is intellectually dishonest. As is the crap about the GoW gods being "weak".

"Bloodlusted Goku can blow up the planet eleventy-billion times!"

"Ares turns Goku into a rooster."
"Ares is Bloodlust, so getting angry only makes Goku Ares' slave."
"Ares claps his hands and Goku bursts into flames."
"Ares, as a God, is invincible to mortal attacks, no matter how powerful."

"None of that applies. Goku gets all of his powers and Ares gets none of his. Goku wins! HAHA YOU WEAKLING :smug:"

And if Ares could do any of that, Kratos would have been fucked.

[TonyTheTiger]

Which means any Death Battle involving GoW that doesn't do that is intellectually dishonest. As is the crap about the GoW gods being "weak".

It depends on the context of the fight. A lot of it depends on how you define "power." Is the ability to make war a "power" that we have? Is it a power that the people in GoW specifically lack, barring the will of the God of War? Imagine if there were a story in which it's specifically stated that the characters "make war by choice" and there's tons of free will stuff in the story. Now these characters are put up against Kratos. Well, who's "power" wins? Does the power over war render Kratos's opponents impotent or does the power of free will prevent Kratos from making them impotent since these people are not subject to his dominion? That's basically a coin flip. Two mutually exclusive "facts" that butt right up against each other. It's as intellectually dishonest to pick one as it is to pick the other.

Plus, a scenario-dependent power is just as much of a weakness to account for as any other. What if all the stars in Dragon Ball were red? No real reason for it, just one quirk of the world among many. Do you think it would be intellectually dishonest to bring that up as a possible complication? Even if it doesn't actually change the results of the fight, wouldn't it be intellectually dishonest to ignore it?

When dealing with GoW you're stuck basically playing favorites, regardless of how fair you want to be. If you give them all their powers you're intellectually dishonest. If you remove their context-specific powers you're intellectually dishonest. The best you can do is a "under these circumstances X wins because..., but under those circumstances X loses because..." The most "honest" way to do it would be to point out all the conflicts and then focus part of the analysis on the variables.

[rereboy]

So you're dismissing one of the few if not the only official source of how Flash would operate in the marvel universe because the authors could have chosen to do something else.

Yes, because "the speed force doesn't work in the Marvel universe" is a plot point based purely on creative choice. "Helios can't raise the sun in the Dragon Ball universe" is factual requirement. There's no choice involved at all. Helios can't do it because the sun doesn't work that way in Dragon Ball. Unless Helios's powers mutate to let him figuratively "raise the sun" by moving the planet or sun around (creating even more problems in the process), there's no way to reconcile the logical conflict between his powers and the physics and basic reality of the surrounding universe. It's very different from "No speed force in Marvel." Think about the difference between the two and it's easy to see why I've drawn the line I have.

No. Any author can write a story in which Helios travels to the DB universe and has the same exact powers as in the GOW universe or even more powers, offering as many explanations for that as he'd like, which might be good explanations or not. Its no different from what you say they did with Flash. The only difference is that it might be an official and canon story/choice or not, so I fail to find any logic in your argument.

For example, I can write a story in which Helios travels to the DB universe and has the same exact powers as in the GOW universe offering as many explanations for that as I'd like, which might be good explanations or not. But would it be official? No, just fan fiction. But if an author does it officially, then its official. We can then argue about it being canon or not, but it is official. That is the story/choice that matters. What could possibly have happened besides that is just fan fiction. So how you can argue that that story/choice doesn't matter because they could have chosen a different route is beyond me.

[TonyTheTiger]

It's impossible to do it, though. Send Helios to the Dragon Ball universe and have him raise the sun. You literally cannot make it work unless you retcon how DB's solar system functions. Which is why a Death Battle gets all mucked up. Because you can't include one ruleset without giving the boot to another in this case. GoW's concept of the sun and Dragon Ball's concept of the sun cannot exist simultaneously in the same setting (ex: a Death Battle arena). You're forced to pick one. This isn't so with the Flash's speed, Goku's Ki, etc. That's the difference. With Dragon Ball and GoW you can't be true to both stories at the same time, in the same place. The sun either works one way or it works another. It either works Dragon Ball's way or GoW's way. It can't work both ways.

The question to ask is this: If I include X from world #1 does it directly affect Y from world #2?

Also, a lot of it is completely random, up to the choice of the people controlling the Death Battle scenario. One question I'd ask, for example, is would Superman be powered by Helios? That's really up in the air, isn't it? There's arguments for or against.

[rereboy]

It's impossible to do it, though. Send Helios to the Dragon Ball universe and have him raise the sun. You literally cannot make it work unless you retcon how DB's solar system functions. Which is why a Death Battle gets all mucked up. Because you can't include one ruleset without giving the boot to another. GoW's concept of the sun and Dragon Ball's concept of the sun cannot exist simultaneously in the same setting (ex: a Death Battle arena). You're forced to pick one. This isn't so with the Flash's speed, Goku's Ki, etc.

Impossible, huh? Let me try... "Helios is a God from a different universe. His travel and presence in the DB universe, connecting both universes, causes a subtle interference in the Dragon Ball universe's make up, essentially warping slightly its reality. This happens because both universes were never meant to interact with each other in any way, and the incompatibilities between the two universes make-up (basically the incompatibilities between their rules) bring forth unpredictable circumstances. The rules and make-up of each other become unstable as the universes mingle with each other. One of the effects of these warpings of rules and reality is that Helios can do pretty much everything he could do in the GOW's universe while in DB's universe."

There you go. It only took me a few minutes to come up with an plausible explanation for something you deemed "impossible".

Anyway, following your argument if an author in a official crossover between DB and GOW used an explanation like this to have Helios do in DB's universe everything that he could do in GOW's universe, it should be dismissed because he could have decided to do something else in the story. I just can't agree with that.

[TonyTheTiger]

causes a subtle interference in the Dragon Ball universe's make up.

You just failed at the task. See, it's not an issue of whether or not you can come up with some manner of explanation. The problem is that you're forced to make changes in order to do so. If you want to be fair to Dragon Ball you've got to take it exactly as it is. If you want to be fair to GoW you have to take it exactly as it is. The minute you start making changes to either or both, you've injected some measure of bias into the match up. Problem is, what do you do when you have no choice? When you really do have to just pick who to lean in favor of, since both can't be equally true?

If I create a fantasy universe where 1+1=3 and you create a fantasy universe where 1+1=2, and our vs. match hinges on mathematics, how do you make it fair? You can't. Either my world has to bow to your rules or your world has to bow to mine. That's the problem in a nutshell.

[Rocketman]

And if Ares could do any of that, Kratos would have been fucked.

He does do all of that. Well, the rooster thing is from Greek myth, but the story was referenced in GoW3. Even if you don't accept Ares' command of bloodlust, the last two are outright shown and stated.

[dbzfan7]

And if Ares could do any of that, Kratos would have been fucked.

He does do all of that. Well, the rooster thing is from Greek myth, but the story was referenced in GoW3. Even if you don't accept Ares' command of bloodlust, the last two are outright shown and stated.

None of them work. Ares is not invincible at all to mortals. It looks that way and may be stated that way because in this universe no mortal is powerful enough to oppose him. I guarantee If Goku, Superman, Silver Surfer, Sentry, Asura, etc used any planet destroying move, then Ares will die. He is not immortal, he has eternal life. What mortal have you ever seen attack Ares with enough power to destroy a planet (the answer is Zero). Even if that statement is true it can't be used in context when all of that universes mortals are weak. All the mortals in GOW are weak. Kratos is a demi-god and pretty much every person he fought was either a monster, demi-god, or god. No pure human mortal can do anything because they are weak. Your going by pure speculation of a rule that applies to mortals of that specific universe since they are shown to be incapable of anything special. There are no super powered aliens who blow up planets in GOW which is why they wrote no mortal could do anything as they are too weak. Gods can be stabbed and killed in this game. If Ares could clap and set people in flames he would have burned Kratos to a crisp in their fight as even with Pandora's box he is still a mortal. Ares has to throw a pillar across the world to kill Kratos without his end game enhancement. The only power Ares used with fire was shooting it at Kratos and not spontaneous combustion.

[Rocketman]

Gods can be stabbed and killed in this game.

Stabbed yes, killed no.

Just look at the fight with Persephone. Persephone is the Goddess of Springtime, not in any way a warrior, and Kratos, for all his overwhelming strength, can't seriously hurt her even with the weapon that chained the Titans. When she gets annoyed at him slashing at her, she flies up and drains the life out of him and he can't stop that either. She only falls because Helios is freed to turn his power against her. Kratos himself says he didn't kill her in GoS.

If Ares could clap and set people in flames

Bringing forth the power of a God.

[dbzfan7]

Stabbed yes, killed no.

Just look at the fight with Persephone. Persephone is the Goddess of Springtime, not in any way a warrior, and Kratos, for all his overwhelming strength, can't seriously hurt her even with the weapon that chained the Titans. When she gets annoyed at him slashing at her, she flies up and drains the life out of him and he can't stop that either. She only falls because Helios is freed to turn his power against her. Kratos himself says he didn't kill her in GoS.

Kratos stabbed and killed all the gods such as Poseidon and Hades who are stronger then Ares without the powers of the box (which were locked away inside him). Also Persephone with life drain couldn't kill Kratos. She still needed Atlas to finish the job. Secondly she was taking damage the whole time, If she took no damage her life bar wouldn't decrease showing that in game. Hell Persephone is the first God he killed. Kratos punches her and then she blows up after saying his suffering won't end.

If Ares could clap and set people in flames

Bringing forth the power of a God.[/quote]

Funny enough he never tries that in his battle with Kratos. Perhaps because his flames aren't as powerful as Helios's. Odd ability to basically over look. Doesn't change anything considering he never uses any of that on Kratos. Goku ain't a normal guy like the others Ares killed. We even see Ares blow off a guys head, which is another ability he never uses on Kratos. All this proves is that Ares is either limited to those moves on weaklings, or the game basically forgot about the powers he could use to one shot Kratos as he can't survive getting his head exploded. Don't give me the pandora's box crap which is only described as the power to kill a god, not make Kratos immune to his attacks that would one shot him. He pretty much just became a giant.They ignore every power Ares used before.

[The Monkey King]

Only semi-relevant but:
http://www.screwattack.com/news/gokus-true-power

Dafuq did I just read? I swear to God the guy started making up numbers

[TheMightyOzaru]

Only semi-relevant but:
http://www.screwattack.com/news/gokus-true-power

Dafuq did I just read? I swear to God the guy started making up numbers

It truly is amazing what lengths people will go to to make Goku win in their minds . 6 Quadecillion Megatons? Lol no.

[Toriyama-sama]

Only semi-relevant but:
http://www.screwattack.com/news/gokus-true-power

Dafuq did I just read? I swear to God the guy started making up numbers

I don't know what to say... Not only is it not right, it's not even wrong...

[dario03]

Only semi-relevant but:
http://www.screwattack.com/news/gokus-true-power

Dafuq did I just read? I swear to God the guy started making up numbers

Well... you just read something that is trying to say that Goku can lift a million-trillion-trillion (1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) Earths (conveniently if you round to just the first 2 numbers it is exactly a million-trillion-trillion since they both start with 6,6)

Goku's full strength+ki:6,600,000,000,000,000,002,410,986,600,000,000,000,000,000,000 mega tons of force/lifting

[Ringworm128]

I don't know why people are going so crazy over this. It's a FAN MADE video. You don't see people trying to do maths over the hundreds of fan fictions where Superman beats Goku and vice versa. And really we can only guess how strong Goku and co are, since we never really get specifics on how powerful the characters are. All we ever really get is "Vegeta trained in the ROSAT he's now strong enough to beat Cell", not "He can now lift X amount of weight". I personally like to think Goku could whip Superman in his base form but there is nothing in the series to prove it, but there's also nothing to say otherwise.

[dbzfan7]

Only semi-relevant but:
http://www.screwattack.com/news/gokus-true-power

Dafuq did I just read? I swear to God the guy started making up numbers

Well... you just read something that is trying to say that Goku can lift a million-trillion-trillion (1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) Earths (conveniently if you round to just the first 2 numbers it is exactly a million-trillion-trillion since they both start with 6,6)

Goku's full strength+ki:6,600,000,000,000,000,002,410,986,600,000,000,000,000,000,000 mega tons of force/lifting

Ok, I think the Death Battle calculations definitely were right in a way, as they weren't baseless. I personally think they should be higher, but not this much. Thats ridiculous. I wanted Goku to win, but saying he is that strong is outright bullshit. Hell Superman was low balled as well.