Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[apex_pretador]

I like to keep it simple; Base < SS < SS2 < SS3 < SSG < SSB. Anything else just confuses me, especially the two-base stuff, sorry! Even if there are loads of things that change, the scaling may be silly but this just seems natural to me. I just watch for fun though, so I don't really analyse it too critically

There you got it right.

I'm not disagreeing its stupid, but there is a precedent for this with Vegeta, he did the same thing in the anime. Came out from the RoSaT and started kicking butt after jobbing.
I'm not seeing where you are getting the using SSB repeatedly in short bursts?? Where does it say that?? If he used it repeatedly like that then it would contradict the lore created earlier.

There is a difference. Black SSR wasn't all that much stronger than SSB vegeta in anime. He was only able to easily defeat him because he got a lucky shot on him with the blade. Goku was equal to vegeta and gave black a harder time. I believe if goku and vegeta worked together, they could've taken SSR Black in anime. Despite this, Vegeta SSB, who while dominated black, it wasn't as dominating as in manga. Also, vegeta was "rage-boosted" in anime.

However, in manga, Even SS2 Black totally utterly humiliated SSB Vegeta, and then you have SSG/SSB flipping vegeta dominate black. And that's when he trained for less than a year in ROSAT, and for U6 tourney, 3 years of training didn't give him too much of a boost.

[Doctor.]

My God scale:

[spoiler]SSG Goku: 1
-- post power-ups: 2.5

SBG Goku (F/Filler): 2.5
SSB Goku (F): 3
-- U6/FT: 3.5
-- KKx2: 7
-- KKx10: 35
-- post Mafuba training/US: 7.5
-- KKx2: 15

Freeza: 2.5
-- Golden: 4

SBG Vegeta (F/Filler): 2.5
SSB Vegeta (F): 3
-- U6/FT: 3.5
-- post-training/US: 7

Hit: 3
-- post-improvement: 7
-- filler/US: 7.5

Black: 2.5
-- SSR: 5
-- scythe: 8

SSI Trunks: 5

Merged Zamasu: 15
-- corrupted: 18

SSB Vegetto: 20

Toppo: 7.5

Beerus: 45
Champa: 44

Whis: 75
Vados: 76

Everyone else is either irrelevant or their power is unknown.[/spoiler]

Toppo is probably weaker than Trunks.

Why do you think so? Weaker than Genkisword Trunks, yeah, but Rage Trunks did worse against SSR Black than SSB Vegeta post ROSAT did. And, by extension, he is also weaker than Goku since Goku's Kamehameha overpowered Zamasu, when Trunks needed Vegeta's help. Toppo is portrayed to be even with that Goku (even if the show does a poor job of showing that they're even).

[TheMikado]

I'm not disagreeing its stupid, but there is a precedent for this with Vegeta, he did the same thing in the anime. Came out from the RoSaT and started kicking butt after jobbing.
I'm not seeing where you are getting the using SSB repeatedly in short bursts?? Where does it say that?? If he used it repeatedly like that then it would contradict the lore created earlier.

There is a difference. Black SSR wasn't all that much stronger than SSB vegeta in anime. He was only able to easily defeat him because he got a lucky shot on him with the blade. Goku was equal to vegeta and gave black a harder time. I believe if goku and vegeta worked together, they could've taken SSR Black in anime. Despite this, Vegeta SSB, who while dominated black, it wasn't as dominating as in manga. Also, vegeta was "rage-boosted" in anime.

However, in manga, Even SS2 Black totally utterly humiliated SSB Vegeta, and then you have SSG/SSB flipping vegeta dominate black. And that's when he trained for less than a year in ROSAT, and for U6 tourney, 3 years of training didn't give him too much of a boost.

I'm not disagreeing with any of that. I'm saying the plot point are exactly the same which seem to be coming from the outline
Point that are similar in the anime and manga:
-Black is stronger than Trunks even in base
-Black needs to get beat by Goku/Vegeta in order to absorb their power and go SSR.
-Black purposely jobs to get the power up.
-Black takes out Vegeta
-Black gets beaten by Vegeta after 6 months of RoSaT training by himself where 3 years in it didn't do squat

Points that are different:
-SS Rage Trunks
-SSG Vegeta
-Manga no Goku/Black fights
-No Trunks/Black SSR fight
-Manga seems to have followed Toriyamas note of having SSJ Black variant (This is also the problem because if SSJ Black was supposed to be stronger than SSB than the power scale was already screwed. Anime may have avoided Toriyama's note because it would have screwed to power levels even more. If they had a SSJ Black in the anime where would he fall? If he's already Goku SSJ3 levels in base and went SSJ would be as strong as SSB Goku as that's their next transformation in the anime? How much stronger would he be as SSR?

I think the point I'm making is the the outline seems both screwed up enough and thin enough that both parties tried to make sense of it. I think the anime was more successful only because they excluded information for Toriyama while Toyotaro tried to keep it in and ultimately screwed the narrative in the Vegeta vs. Black dynamic. However he gets a bonus for no SS Rage shenanigans so ultimately its pretty awful all around and whenever the outline was written, very little care was taken to make sure things made sense in universe.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It appears that Toriyama is writing the outlines with the movies in his mind, where base Goku & Vegeta have the power of SSG & can only use SSB, and the return of SS/2/3/God for Goku & Vegeta seems to be an addition made by Toei & Toyotaro. Look at Black in the manga; he is supposedly drawing more & more of Goku's power through near-death power-ups, yet he is already stronger than SS3 Goku in his base, and surpasses SSB Goku with his SS form after the next huge power-up, before the final power-up that makes him a Super Saiyan Rose, which isn't that far from SSB Goku, and yet Goku can't get stronger through near-death power-ups. It makes sense for SSR Black to be stronger than SSB Goku, since he has gotten the body of Goku from a further future, but Black appears to be slowing drawing out the SSG power in his base/SS forms that Goku already had before, and in the end his SS form evolved into SSR like Goku's SS form evolved into SSB in the movies continuity.

[TheMikado]

It appears that Toriyama is writing the outlines with the movies in his mind, where base Goku & Vegeta have the power of SSG & can only use SSB, and the return of SS/2/3/God for Goku & Vegeta seems to be an addition made by Toei & Toyotaro. Look at Black in the manga; he is supposedly drawing more & more of Goku's power through near-death power-ups, yet he is already stronger than SS3 Goku in his base, and surpasses SSB Goku with his SS form after the next huge power-up, before the final power-up that makes him a Super Saiyan Rose, which isn't that far from SSB Goku, and yet Goku can't get stronger through near-death power-ups. It makes sense for SSR Black to be stronger than SSB Goku, since he has gotten the body of Goku from a further future, but Black appears to be slowing drawing out the SSG power in his base/SS forms that Goku already had before, and in the end his SS form evolved into SSR like Goku's SS form evolved into SSB in the movies continuity.

Wait so you think both the manga and anime just happened to decide to reintroduce things that would screw their power levels??? What would be the point of Toriyama even writing an outline if they weren't going to follow it??

[Bullza]

[Why do you think so? Weaker than Genkisword Trunks, yeah, but Rage Trunks did worse against SSR Black than SSB Vegeta post ROSAT did. And, by extension, he is also weaker than Goku since Goku's Kamehameha overpowered Zamasu, when Trunks needed Vegeta's help. Toppo is portrayed to be even with that Goku (even if the show does a poor job of showing that they're even).

Trunks was probably just as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta. People seem to forget about the scene but Trunks did have an additional rage boost that powered him up even further towards the end after Merged Zamasu showed up.

But yeah I'd say he was weaker than Toppo if he's equal to Goku's Kaioken. No match for Spirit Trunks though.

[SansrivaaL]

My God scale:

[spoiler]SSG Goku: 1
-- post power-ups: 2.5

SBG Goku (F/Filler): 2.5
SSB Goku (F): 3
-- U6/FT: 3.5
-- KKx2: 7
-- KKx10: 35
-- post Mafuba training/US: 7.5
-- KKx2: 15

Freeza: 2.5
-- Golden: 4

SBG Vegeta (F/Filler): 2.5
SSB Vegeta (F): 3
-- U6/FT: 3.5
-- post-training/US: 7

Hit: 3
-- post-improvement: 7
-- filler/US: 7.5

Black: 2.5
-- SSR: 5
-- scythe: 8

SSI Trunks: 5

Merged Zamasu: 15
-- corrupted: 18

SSB Vegetto: 20

Toppo: 7.5

Beerus: 45
Champa: 44

Whis: 75
Vados: 76

Everyone else is either irrelevant or their power is unknown.[/spoiler]

Perfectly fine with this, tho I'd put Toppo at around 7 or 6.5, from what I've seen, they're not equal, Toppo just puts himself in high regards, he was clearly getting stomped (literally), Beerus just hated that Goku had a close match with him.
Also Beerus and Chanpa are too high.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Wait so you think both the manga and anime just happened to decide to reintroduce things that would screw their power levels??? What would be the point of Toriyama even writing an outline if they weren't going to follow it??

They are following the outline, but they are not forced to strictly follow everything in it, they have freedom to add, remove, move around, and change things to the story, since both the manga & anime are adaptations of Toriyama's outlines.

[TheMikado]

Wait so you think both the manga and anime just happened to decide to reintroduce things that would screw their power levels??? What would be the point of Toriyama even writing an outline if they weren't going to follow it??

They are following the outline, but they are not forced to strictly follow everything in it, they have freedom to add, remove, move around, and change things to the story, since both the manga & anime are adaptations of Toriyama's outlines.

You specifically said that the return of the SSJ levels are invented from Toei and Toyotaro which seems like they are from the outline.

[perucho1990]

I'm starting to believe Merged Zamasu was around 10X stronger than SSJB Goku and Vegeta, he gained more special abilities than raw power(Like old Kaioshin, although he lost raw strenght he gained special abilities like unlocking potential). Thats why Merged Zamasu couldnt 1 shot both of them and they still kept fighting.

Toppo wont be able to pull the same feats Goku did vs Merged Zamasu, mostly because he is slow.

He is a better tank than Hit, he would lose to Hit because a) No knowledge of his killing abilities and b) his bad reaction speed, he would lose to Black because those clones were unlimited.

As for now Genkidama Trunks is stronger than Jiren based on feats, and probably he is Hakaishin level(I mean he 2 shotted Merged Zamasu).

[DBZGTKOSDH]

You specifically said that the return of the SSJ levels are invented from Toei and Toyotaro which seems like they are from the outline.

If something appears in both manga & anime, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's from the outline. We are told that Toyotaro & Toei affect each other. I'm saying it's possible they did it because Black appears to be a Saiyan with the power of SSG like Goku was in BoG & FnF, but isn't in the Super manga, while it is changed for the Super anime.

Then again, Black's body is from a future after the events of the Future Trunks arc in the present timeline, so who knows maybe Goku will develop in an unexpected way.

[ChiefWamsutta]

So another topic was made by a user asking about Goku's base power.

I'm curious as to thoughts on where his current power is. I have Base Goku (Universe Survival Saga) = Base Vegito (Buu Saga).

[mfwlegend3]

I'm curious about your inputs and opinions.

How do you think Goku would fair against Black if the two had actually fought in the manga? Goku, from what we know, never saw Black as a threat. He was more focused on sealing Zamasu and getting him out of the way, while leaving Black in Vegeta's hands.

Would you say the difference in power was too great between the two once Black went into SSR, even if Goku tried his hardest?

[pacz360]

So another topic was made by a user asking about Goku's base power.

I'm curious as to thoughts on where his current power is. I have Base Goku (Universe Survival Saga) = Base Vegito (Buu Saga).

Nah base vegito aint shit to base goku should be at least bar minimum ssj vegito level even then I'm just lowballing him.

[Berserker1921]

My power levels. Scale is from 1-1500. 1500 being Zeno of destruction. 1 being hercule.

Goku (base): 60
Goku: ssj: 80
Ssj blue: 350
Ssjblue (kaioken): 475

Toppo (max): 470

Gods of destruction: 650
Angels: 750
Grand Priest: 950

[ChiefWamsutta]

So another topic was made by a user asking about Goku's base power.

I'm curious as to thoughts on where his current power is. I have Base Goku (Universe Survival Saga) = Base Vegito (Buu Saga).

Nah base vegito aint shit to base goku should be at least bar minimum ssj vegito level even then I'm just lowballing him.

Well, we know he was at Ultimate Gohan level during Copy-Vegeta Saga. Before he fought Goku Black he was probably around that level as well. I put him as growing from Ultimate Gohan to Base Vegito during the Future Trunks Saga. Where would you put him growing from and to?

[Bullza]

So another topic was made by a user asking about Goku's base power.

I'm curious as to thoughts on where his current power is. I have Base Goku (Universe Survival Saga) = Base Vegito (Buu Saga).

He's around as strong as Base Gohan from the looks of it and Base Gohan is either around as strong as Piccolo whose weaker than Buu or he's at his Ultimate level from the Buu saga.

A preview mentioned it returning so it either did for that Zen Exhibition or it will for the Tournament of Power. So yeah Base Goku is either weaker than Buu or equal to Ultimate Gohan.

[pacz360]

So another topic was made by a user asking about Goku's base power.

I'm curious as to thoughts on where his current power is. I have Base Goku (Universe Survival Saga) = Base Vegito (Buu Saga).

Nah base vegito aint shit to base goku should be at least bar minimum ssj vegito level even then I'm just lowballing him.

Well, we know he was at Ultimate Gohan level during Copy-Vegeta Saga. Before he fought Goku Black he was probably around that level as well. I put him as growing from Ultimate Gohan to Base Vegito during the Future Trunks Saga. Where would you put him growing from and to?

Ultimate gohan level ain't shit considering he did a lot better against beerus when was in the suit then either gohan or even ssj3 self at the start of bog.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Nah base vegito aint shit to base goku should be at least bar minimum ssj vegito level even then I'm just lowballing him.

Well, we know he was at Ultimate Gohan level during Copy-Vegeta Saga. Before he fought Goku Black he was probably around that level as well. I put him as growing from Ultimate Gohan to Base Vegito during the Future Trunks Saga. Where would you put him growing from and to?

Ultimate gohan level ain't shit considering he did a lot better against beerus when was in the suit then either gohan or even ssj3 self at the start of bog.

Whis does specifically say that Beerus was handicapped because of the suit. I don't think Base Copy-Vegeta (which equaled Base Vegeta, which equaled Base Goku) was SSG Goku level or SS3 Gotenks would have been hurt much more than he was.

[AvatarReiko]

I'm starting to believe Merged Zamasu was around 10X stronger than SSJB Goku and Vegeta, he gained more special abilities than raw power(Like old Kaioshin, although he lost raw strenght he gained special abilities like unlocking potential). Thats why Merged Zamasu couldnt 1 shot both of them and they still kept fighting.

Toppo wont be able to pull the same feats Goku did vs Merged Zamasu, mostly because he is slow.

He is a better tank than Hit, he would lose to Hit because a) No knowledge of his killing abilities and b) his bad reaction speed, he would lose to Black because those clones were unlimited.

As for now Genkidama Trunks is stronger than Jiren based on feats, and probably he is Hakaishin level(I mean he 2 shotted Merged Zamasu).

But SSJ Blue Goku was easily able overpower merged zamasu's blast. A feat both Trunks and Vegeta failed to do.