Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

It does matter because Buu wasn't serious when he fought Dabura and Gohan. He didn't even begin to show his full power until he fought Majin Vegeta.

Good Buu is easily stronger than Majin Vegeta since before he lost his power he was at least four times stronger than Majin Vegeta. Meaning that even if he lost 3/4 of his power, he was still be 1.5x stronger than Majin Vegeta. As I said, Basil is an extreme low ball because you're low balling Buu.

But that's a completely different Buu. Whether he was serious or not against Dabura and Gohan that was a complete Buu. What does he have to do with anything?

Good Buu has just a portion of that strength, you can't compare his performance to Basil against Majin Buu's performance against Dabura.

I'm not low balling Basil, you saw that Krillin put up a respectable enough fight against him. Krillin is weaker than Namek Frieza because Goku was. So Basil who didn't appear to be powered up maybe until the end because he had no fire aura can't be enormously powerful.

Unfortunately it was never too clear how strong the humans like Krillin and Tien stacked up power level wise except we know they're weaker than Base Goku but they could still be up in the tens of millions.

Good Buu and Fat Buu are not 'completely different Buus'. They are the same person. The only different is that Good Buu isn't as strong as he used to be and even then you're guessing how much energy he lost since the manga only said he lost the majority of his power, mean 51% >. So him losing 60% of his power would still put him over Majin Vegeta since he was already four times stronger than him.

So yes, you're low balling Buu.

Like someone said earlier, the two-base theory is a failed pursuit when no one here can make sense of it, much less Toei. It's best to look at how things appear to work now and retroactively apply it to the past as much as possible, assuming you're invested in Super's future.

I don't think there's a normal base and a God-level base leading to different Super Saiyan chains, because it's only a matter of time (if it hasn't happened already) until what's perceived as God-level Base Goku goes Super Saiyan 1 and comes out stronger than where he was just at. Then what?

Uhm... I don't think I'm really understanding the rationale of the second paragraph. What would the correlation between Goku's improvements and disproving the idea of two bases be, according to you?

On the theory itself, I believe everyone - or almost anyone - here deems it to be a strictly unintended side effect of Super retracing the movies at first and then trying to establish its own canon in conjuction with Toriyama's new inputs, starting from the U6 tourney and afterwards.

I agree with LowRyder2005 and Bulma's Foot Masseur. Saiyan Beyond God, Super Saiyan Beyond God, and the Two-Base Theory are unintended side effects of DBSuper production. That's why we haven't seen Goku fighting Beerus in it again. 'Saiyan Beyond God' basically is gone. Claiming that Goku and Vegeta are just hiding it away and will use it later is ignoring the out-of-universe production choice.

DBSuper's powerscaling will never be fixed for the Battle of Gods, Resurrection F, and Universe 6 arcs. We have to accept this and hope the Future Trunks and Universe Survival arcs can be consistent without a One-Base vs. Two-Base debate. It's good that we never saw 'Saiyan Beyond God' in the Future Trunks arc.

That makes no sense. Why do Toei have to keep showing or repeating that Goku's base is stronger than before when it was shown several times in Battle of Gods, Resurrection 'F', and the breather episodes afterwards. They most likely figured that the audience would know by now that Goku's base form is stronger than ever and it doesn't need to be repeated all the time. It called given your audience the benefit of the doubt that they have been paying even halfway attention.

Also, Goku haven't fought Beerus again since Episode 42, so what are you even talking about when you say That's why we haven't seen Goku fighting Beerus in it again'.

[ChiefWamsutta]

That makes no sense. Why do Toei have to keep showing or repeating that Goku's base is stronger than before when it was shown several times in Battle of Gods, Resurrection 'F', and the breather episodes afterwards. They most likely figured that the audience would know by now that Goku's base form is stronger than ever and it doesn't need to be repeated all the time. It called given your audience the benefit of the doubt that they have been paying even halfway attention.

Also, Goku haven't fought Beerus again since Episode 42, so what are you even talking about when you say That's why we haven't seen Goku fighting Beerus in it again'.

I'm saying that Saiyan Beyond God is not a form. Base Goku < SS1 Goku < SS2 Goku < SS3 Goku < SSG Goku < SSBlue Goku

There was probably some issues translating the first few arcs into DBSuper from the movies. Currently, we haven't seen Base Goku casually fight known incredibly strong characters like Monaka-Beerus and Hit. The manga is also trying to push this Base < SS1 < SS2 < SS3 < SSGod < SSBlue agenda.

[HeroR]

That makes no sense. Why do Toei have to keep showing or repeating that Goku's base is stronger than before when it was shown several times in Battle of Gods, Resurrection 'F', and the breather episodes afterwards. They most likely figured that the audience would know by now that Goku's base form is stronger than ever and it doesn't need to be repeated all the time. It called given your audience the benefit of the doubt that they have been paying even halfway attention.

Also, Goku haven't fought Beerus again since Episode 42, so what are you even talking about when you say That's why we haven't seen Goku fighting Beerus in it again'.

I'm saying that Saiyan Beyond God is not a form. Base Goku < SS1 Goku < SS2 Goku < SS3 Goku < SSG Goku < SSBlue Goku

There was probably some issues translating the first few arcs into DBSuper from the movies. Currently, we haven't seen Base Goku casually fight known incredibly strong characters like Monaka-Beerus and Hit. The manga is also trying to push this Base < SS1 < SS2 < SS3 < SSGod < SSBlue agenda.

Saiyan Beyond God was never a thing except in Heroes. The term and idea was never used in Resurrection 'F' or Super. All Goku and Vegeta had was a super strong base form that was much stronger than their previous Buu Saga's Super Saiyan forms. That is literally it. So Goku forms in the anime is Super Saiyan God, Goku absorbed Super Saiyan God so now super strong base from < Super Saiyan < Super Saiyan 2 < Super Saiyan 3 < Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

Again, why does the anime have to repeatedly show that Goku and Vegeta's base forms are super strong? Why can't Toei assumed that their audience is smart enough to get it without needing to be reminding every story arc? If they assumed 8 to 12 years children can get it, why can't people here can't seem to? And, again, Goku haven't fought Beerus again since Episode 42 and has no reason to and why would he fight Hit in his base form when Hit was literally trying to kill him and wasn't holding back, unlike at the tournament where Goku could afford to test him?

And what the manga does have no bearing on the anime, just like Super Saiyan God Vegeta.

[Bullza]

What's the point of God Ki if it doesn't grant the user super power?

Something that people have never truly understood.

Supreme Kai, Kibito and possibly the likes of King Kai would apparently have this God Ki because they can sense it and yet they're pitifully weak.

And as I said I don't remember it ever being said in any media that God Ki relates to power. Aside from it having the unique property that mortals can't sense it unless they're strong enough I don't know what other purpose it has.

All throughout Goku and Vegeta's training with Whis he never once said anything about how they'd need to obtain God Ki in order to grow stronger. Then with him not having God Ki as a Super Saiyan fighting Beerus it's complicated.

The only different is that Good Buu isn't as strong as he used to be and even then you're guessing how much energy he lost since the manga only said he lost the majority of his power, mean 51% >. So him losing 60% of his power would still put him over Majin Vegeta since he was already four times stronger than him.

Right....So they're not the same in strength. Good Buu at least lost over half the power of Majin Buu.

So why are you comparing Basil's fight with Good Buu to Dabura's fight with the much stronger Majin Buu?

Just because Basil withstood Good Buu's angry attacks doesn't mean he could do the same thing with someone over twice as strong and again that was Basil at full power with a red aura and his feet on fire.

Krillin didn't fight that Basil, he fought the Basil who first fought Buu before he powered up to that.

[zamasu121]

Next episode will definitely be a shitshow. like i said before, if krillin manages to hold himself against ssb goku, then i'm done with the series, and with super track record i think there is a decent chance of that happening.

There's really nothing in the NEP that implies that Goku had to go SSJB to beat Krillin and Krillin being able to fight Blue Goku. What even makes you think Krillin will give SSJB Goku a fight when Krillin couldn't stand Base Goku's fist? Just because Goku went SSJB? It's just like Vegeta's fight with Cabba where he revealed SSJB just for the sake of showing off the form when Vegeta could've beaten Cabba in his SSJ form alone.

Episodes like 57 and 66 are the reason why i don't trust super to be consistent with powerscaling.

[Roronoa-pt]

We've yet to know if Goku turns blue to fight Kuririn, the preview isn't clear.
However, if Goku turns blue to fight him, it's his recognization that Kuririn has done some progress. Fighting with Kuririn as a SSJB is to motivate Kuririn to work even harder for the tournament. Goku turns blue but he can control his KI like he wants and he won't even 1/10 of his power against Kuririn. He'll transform but won't use his SSJB power at all, otherwise he would easily erase Kuririn from existence. He kinda did that with Botamo, even with Blue and Kaioken, he was using like half of his true power or so.

[Freeza9000]

Next episode will definitely be a shitshow. like i said before, if krillin manages to hold himself against ssb goku, then i'm done with the series, and with super track record i think there is a decent chance of that happening.

There's really nothing in the NEP that implies that Goku had to go SSJB to beat Krillin and Krillin being able to fight Blue Goku. What even makes you think Krillin will give SSJB Goku a fight when Krillin couldn't stand Base Goku's fist? Just because Goku went SSJB? It's just like Vegeta's fight with Cabba where he revealed SSJB just for the sake of showing off the form when Vegeta could've beaten Cabba in his SSJ form alone.

Episodes like 57 and 66 are the reason why i don't trust super to be consistent with powerscaling.

We still don't even know why Goku even went SSJB with Krillin yet and just because he did so, doesn't necessarily mean that it's because "OMG KRILLIN IZ SOO STRONG!! ME WAKU!!!" Goku most likely transforms into his strongest form to give Krillin even more of a challenge. Just like how Vegeta unnecessarily transformed into SSJB against SSJ2 Trunks in order to give Trunks the hardest challenge.

[IKevinX]

Since Krillin can't feel Godly ki I think he will ask Goku to use it so he can get a feel of it.

Thing is, we have no context whatsoever. Goku could transform against Gohan for all intents and purposes.
Same thing happened when Vegeta was SSB against Cabba in the preview and everyone was pushing Cabba to God levels.

[buutenks]

Or maybe its more image training?

The setting fits, very similar to Basil vs Krillin location.

So I'm guessing Goku was thinking how Krillin would fare vs ssj blue.

[AvatarReiko]

We've yet to know if Goku turns blue to fight Kuririn, the preview isn't clear.
However, if Goku turns blue to fight him, it's his recognization that Kuririn has done some progress. Fighting with Kuririn as a SSJB is to motivate Kuririn to work even harder for the tournament. Goku turns blue but he can control his KI like he wants and he won't even 1/10 of his power against Kuririn. He'll transform but won't use his SSJB power at all, otherwise he would easily erase Kuririn from existence. He kinda did that with Botamo, even with Blue and Kaioken, he was using like half of his true power or so.

He shouldn't need to use blue in the first place, though. It's completely overkill. SSJ1 or I dare say SSJ2, would be more than enough.

What's point in using blue if he's going to use 1/10 of it's power? He may as well use SS1,2 or 3

[emperior]

About the two-base theory, what if Goku and Vegeta basically lost their SSG powered base once they first turned Super Saiyan Blue?
It makes sense to me, because they never showed that kind of strenght in their base ever again after the RoF events.
Black would be using that same super powered base too after his first fight with Goku (that's why he was able to kick SSB Vegeta in base)
Copy-Vegeta would be using that same power because he still had technically never turned SSB.

So basically, in order to turn Super Saiyan Blue/Rosè, a Saiyan must first possess SSG powers (in base form). Afterwards, a Saiyan's base comes back to normal (in Goku and Vegeta's case their base was still a lot stronger than before because of their training) but he can access the transformation whenever he wants.

It's headcanon but it should fit with what was shown unless I'm forgetting something. Here's a list of Super levels based on this theory of mine:

Multipliers
SSJ - 50x
SSJ2 - 100x
SSJ3 - 400x
SSB - 10,000x

Spoiler:

Goku
Base - 50,000,000
SSJ - 2,500,000,000
SSJ2 - 5,000,000,000
SSJ3 - 20,000,000,000
SSG (Full Power) - 4,500,000,000,000

Vegeta
Base - 45,000,000
SSJ - 2,250,000,000
SSJ2 - 4,500,000,000
FPSSJ2 - 450,000,000,000

Gohan
Base - 20,000,000
SSJ - 1,000,000,000
Ultimate - 10,000,000,000

Majin Buu - 4,000,000,000

#18 - 350,000,000

Beerus
10% (vs Vegeta) - 500,000,000,000
100% (vs Goku) - 5,000,000,000,000
True 100% - 100,000,000,000,000

Whis
True Power - 150,000,000,000,000

Spoiler:

Goku
SSG Base - 4,500,000,000,000
SSB - 9,000,000,000,000

Vegeta
SSG Base - 4,500,000,000,000
SSB - 9,000,000,000,000

Freezer
1st Form - 1,300,000,000
4th Form - 4,000,000,000,000
Golden - 12,000,000,000,000
Exhausted - 6,000,000,000,000 (Dropping)

Gohan
Base - 20,000,000
SSJ - 1,000,000,000

Freezer's Soldiers - Average of 100

Piccolo - 950,000,000
Tenshinan - 1,500,000
Krillin - 1,000,000
Master Roshi - 300
Jaco- 150

Spoiler:

U7

Whis - 150,000,000,000,000

Beerus - 100,000,000,000,000

Goku
Base - 1,000,000,000
SSJ - 50,000,000,000
SSB - 10,000,000,000,000
SSB + KKx2 - 20,000,000,000,000
SSB + KKx10 - 100,000,000,000,000

Vegeta

Base - 1,000,000,000
SSJ - 50,000,000,000
SSB - 10,000,000,000,000

Piccolo - 2,000,000,000

Majin Buu - 4,000,000,000

Monaka - 1


U6

Vados - ? 150,000,000,000,050

Champa - ? 99,999,999,999,950

Botamo - 500,000,000

Frost
1st Form - 530,000,000
Assault Form - 1,000,000,000
Final Form - 10,000,000,000

Otto Magetta - 100,000,000,000

Cabba
Base - 1,000,000,000
SSJ - 50,000,000,000

Hit - 25,000,000,000,000

Spoiler:

Present

Future Trunks
Base - 3,000,000,000
SSJ2 - 300,000,000,000

Black - 750,000,000,000

Goku
Base - 1,500,000,000
SSJ2 - 150,000,000,000
SSJ3 - 600,000,000,000
SSB - 15,000,000,000,000

Zamasu - 100,000,000,000


Future

Future Trunks (Post Training)
Base - 3,000,000,000
FPSSJ2 - 3,000,000,000,000
God Form - 30,000,000,000,000

Vegeta
Base - 1,500,000,000
SSB - 15,000,000,000,000
———
2nd Travel - 2,000,000,000
SSB - 20,000,000,000,000

Goku
Base - 1,500,000,000
SSB - 15,000,000,000,000
———
2nd Travel - 2,000,000,000
SSB (Rage) - 25,000,000,000,000

Vegeta (Rage + Training)
Base - 4,000,000,000
SSB - 40,000,000,000,000

Black (Goku boost)
Base - 15,000,000,000
SSR - 20,000,000,000,000
SSR (Full Power) - 30,000,000,000,000
SSR (Scythe) - 40,000,000,000,000
(Black is quite tricky. He never shows his full SSR power before Goku rages)

Future Zamasu - 2,500,000,000,000


Fusions

Goku
Base - 3,000,000,000
SSB - 30,000,000,000,000
KHH + KK - 90,000,000,000,000

Vegeta
Base - 4,000,000,000
SSB - 40,000,000,000,000

Future Trunks (Rage)
Base - 3,500,000,000
God Form - 35,000,000,000,000

Merged Zamasu
Halo (1/2) - 85,000,000,000,000
Full Power - 170,000,000,000,000
Giant Form (1/2) - 85,000,000,000,000 (Decreasing)
(Potara multiplier is: [(A+B)] x 4)

Vegetto
Base - 14,000,000,000
SSB - 140,000,000,000,000
(Potara multiplier is: [(A+B)] x 2)

Spirit Sword Trunks - 150,000,000,000,000

Spoiler:

Zen Exhibition Match

Goku
Base - 3,000,000,000
SSJ - 150,000,000,000
SSB - 30,000,000,000,000
SSB + KKx2 - 60,000,000,000,000

Gohan
Base (Ultimate power) - 3,000,000,000
SSJ (Ultimate power) - 15,000,000,000

Majin Buu - 4,000,000,000

Basil - 2,000,000,000
Power-Up - 3,000,000,000

Lavenda - 3,000,000,000

Bergamo
Base - 5,000,000,000
SSJ Power Up - 300,000,000,000
SSB Power Up - 50,000,000,000,000

Toppo - 30,000,000,000,000

[khazgore]

i have this wierd question, master rochi was strong in early dragon ball, possibly the strongest. but by now, he should be far weaker than goten, and young trunks. goku was like we need more than power in this tournament, goten and trunks wont do. so how much does skills-experience actually affect combat ability?
he was instantly okay, with rochi, while he was considering krillin that should be stronger for sure but apparently is not.
rochi also did a awesome job against Freeza's solider for such a low power level, i mean, he cant even fly!

[Hugo Boss]

About the two-base theory, what if Goku and Vegeta basically lost their SSG powered base once they first turned Super Saiyan Blue?
It makes sense to me, because they never showed that kind of strenght in their base ever again after the RoF events.
Black would be using that same super powered base too after his first fight with Goku (that's why he was able to kick SSB Vegeta in base)
Copy-Vegeta would be using that same power because he still had technically never turned SSB.

So basically, in order to turn Super Saiyan Blue/Rosè, a Saiyan must first possess SSG powers (in base form). Afterwards, a Saiyan's base comes back to normal (in Goku and Vegeta's case their base was still a lot stronger than before because of their training) but he can access the transformation whenever he wants.

The problem is in Copy-Vegeta's fight Goku was even with him and he had already turned Blue before.

[emperior]

About the two-base theory, what if Goku and Vegeta basically lost their SSG powered base once they first turned Super Saiyan Blue?
It makes sense to me, because they never showed that kind of strenght in their base ever again after the RoF events.
Black would be using that same super powered base too after his first fight with Goku (that's why he was able to kick SSB Vegeta in base)
Copy-Vegeta would be using that same power because he still had technically never turned SSB.

So basically, in order to turn Super Saiyan Blue/Rosè, a Saiyan must first possess SSG powers (in base form). Afterwards, a Saiyan's base comes back to normal (in Goku and Vegeta's case their base was still a lot stronger than before because of their training) but he can access the transformation whenever he wants.

The problem is in Copy-Vegeta's fight Goku was even with him and he had already turned Blue before.

I forgot about that. Copy-Vegeta vs SSJ3 Gotenks was very stupid and inconistent so I'm going to pretend it never happened/was a gag battle.

[pacz360]

About the two-base theory, what if Goku and Vegeta basically lost their SSG powered base once they first turned Super Saiyan Blue?
It makes sense to me, because they never showed that kind of strenght in their base ever again after the RoF events.
Black would be using that same super powered base too after his first fight with Goku (that's why he was able to kick SSB Vegeta in base)
Copy-Vegeta would be using that same power because he still had technically never turned SSB.

So basically, in order to turn Super Saiyan Blue/Rosè, a Saiyan must first possess SSG powers (in base form). Afterwards, a Saiyan's base comes back to normal (in Goku and Vegeta's case their base was still a lot stronger than before because of their training) but he can access the transformation whenever he wants.

The problem is in Copy-Vegeta's fight Goku was even with him and he had already turned Blue before.

I forgot about that. Copy-Vegeta vs SSJ3 Gotenks was very stupid and inconistent so I'm going to pretend it never happened/was a gag battle.

Nope it was referenced by goku in the black arc so no they didn't lose it unless stated otherwise.

[pacz360]

Or maybe its more image training?

The setting fits, very similar to Basil vs Krillin location.

So I'm guessing Goku was thinking how Krillin would fare vs ssj blue.

Nah there not going to do back to back image training here.

[emperior]

The problem is in Copy-Vegeta's fight Goku was even with him and he had already turned Blue before.

I forgot about that. Copy-Vegeta vs SSJ3 Gotenks was very stupid and inconistent so I'm going to pretend it never happened/was a gag battle.

Nope it was referenced by goku in the black arc so no they didn't lose it unless stated otherwise.

I never said Copy arc never happened, just the Copy Vegeta vs Gotenks. Which we can treat as a gag battle and it would be just fine.

[pacz360]

I forgot about that. Copy-Vegeta vs SSJ3 Gotenks was very stupid and inconistent so I'm going to pretend it never happened/was a gag battle.

Nope it was referenced by goku in the black arc so no they didn't lose it unless stated otherwise.

I never said Copy arc never happened, just the Copy Vegeta vs Gotenks. Which we can treat as a gag battle and it would be just fine.

Not really it meant to show that buu saga level fighters aren't shit to current goku and vegeta base forms.

[emperior]

Nope it was referenced by goku in the black arc so no they didn't lose it unless stated otherwise.

I never said Copy arc never happened, just the Copy Vegeta vs Gotenks. Which we can treat as a gag battle and it would be just fine.

Not really it meant to show that buu saga level fighters aren't shit to current goku and vegeta base forms.

I still don't buy it, I can't believe Cabba is stronger in his base than Gotenks, a fusion, is at SSJ3.

The upcoming tournament will hopefully settle things down. Next episode, we will probably know just how strong Krillin has gotten (maybe 18 will compare him to her?) In a few episodes, Goku will be sparring with Buu (though it will be a trained Buu, it seems) and in the tournament we will see what the gap between the androids and base Goku/Vegeta is.

[Doctor.]

Seeing as how Kuririn is going to fight Gohan (and Goku) next episode, with Goku fighting Mr. Boo in the following one, we should hopefully get a good way to measure how strong the characters actually are (and how strong Goku actually is after all the God bullshit and the power retconning going around).