dbzfan7 wrote:
Does the Heroes manga stuff count? That's the closest I can think of.
Kind of. Obviously the story concept is more suited for video games to allow cramming in as much past iconic events and characters as possible, but the 'general' story arc of Xeno Trunks & friends on timeline adventures against Mira/Towa is led by new generation. Not Goku/Vegeta. So there's that and it's been reused succesfuly in multiple highly popular games already. Not sure if that's prove enough for Toei though that the franchise can move on from Goku/Vegeta as 2 most important characters though.
Hellspawn28 wrote:
I think they would done that with Goku Jr. and Vegeta Jr. in 1997 if GT didn't flopped. Not sure if fans would like a brand new cast of heroes with Goku and the other Z fighters around. People want to see Goku, Vegeta and the other iconic characters.
These 2 would be just rebooted clones of the original though, let's be honest lol. Again, with all its flaws, Episode 7 does a good job letting the new cast take over while keeping the iconic trio around and having them be relevant. No one says Goku/Vegeta should be cut completly.
Basaku wrote:Pass it down to next generation then. If Star Wars can do it succesfully after 40 years, DB can do it too.
I think they would done that with Goku Jr. and Vegeta Jr. in 1997 if GT didn't flopped. Not sure if fans would like a brand new cast of heroes with Goku and the other Z fighters around. People want to see Goku, Vegeta and the other iconic characters.
I think it can work if it's not forced on people. If Goku's time just stopped and people were forced to only have the option for new protagonists, it could be a problem. However if we have a spin off manga that takes place after Goku's time, while Super is still going, then there's really nothing to complain about. People who want Goku can tune into Super. People who want to see something else can look to a manga by Toyotaro. Everyone wins. No one is alienated. We keep Goku, while having a separate storyline as another product to enjoy. Dragon Ball Heroes manga essentially already does this, but let's get an actual series that takes place in the future.
That's the potential of spin offs. We can have something new, without sacrificing everything we currently have. Like with all the Megaman Spin offs, Comic Spin offs, etc.
Basaku wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote:
Does the Heroes manga stuff count? That's the closest I can think of.
Kind of. Obviously the story concept is more suited for video games to allow cramming in as much past iconic events and characters as possible, but the 'general' story arc of Xeno Trunks & friends on timeline adventures against Mira/Towa is led by new generation. Not Goku/Vegeta. So there's that and it's been reused succesfuly in multiple highly popular games already. Not sure if that's prove enough for Toei though that the franchise can move on from Goku/Vegeta as 2 most important characters though.
Like I said the key is to not force change on everyone. If we have Super alongside a spin off manga with new characters for a storyline set passed the Goku generation, then everyone wins. We get to have one story with Goku and one with a whole new cast in the future. Goku gets to keep his own spotlight while a new generation has it's own spotlight in a spin off manga. No one feels frustrated because there's a choice to stick with Goku and see something new.
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Gokû and Vegeta are the main draw for me in Dragon Ball, so if they were to be dumped for a next gen I'd probably stop following the series and go find something else to watch. ^^;
dbzfan7 wrote:
Like I said the key is to not force change on everyone. If have Super alongside a spin off manga with new characters for a storyline set passed the Goku generation, then everyone wins. We get to have one story with Goku and one with a whole new cast in the future. Goku gets to keep his own spotlight while a new generation has it's own spotlight in a spin off manga. No one feels frustrated because there's a choice to stick with Goku and see something new.
That would just keep Goku/Vegeta in spotlight overshadowing the new generation. Same as it's happening with Xeno Trunks/Towa/Mira story thing from games/Heroes manga. It's obvious what is the main focus of Toei. Without an actual anime, it would never be seen as equal and legitimate continuation. And if u run it concurrently with Super, it's still a major risk that Goku will steal the spotlight simply because he's familiar to the accustomed audience. New generation should have a breathing space and proper chance to shine and the audience would have to be kind of 'forced' to at least give it a chance. Star Wars Episode 7 mostly does it by having the new cast lead the film while the old iconic characters are in relevant but supporting roles.
Chuquita wrote:Gokû and Vegeta are the main draw for me in Dragon Ball, so if they were to be dumped for a next gen I'd probably stop following the series and go find something else to watch. ^^;
dbzfan7 wrote:
Like I said the key is to not force change on everyone. If have Super alongside a spin off manga with new characters for a storyline set passed the Goku generation, then everyone wins. We get to have one story with Goku and one with a whole new cast in the future. Goku gets to keep his own spotlight while a new generation has it's own spotlight in a spin off manga. No one feels frustrated because there's a choice to stick with Goku and see something new.
That would just keep Goku/Vegeta in spotlight overshadowing the new generation. Same as it's happening with Xeno Trunks/Towa/Mira story thing from games/Heroes manga. It's obvious what is the main focus of Toei. Without an actual anime, it would never be seen as equal and legitimate continuation. And if u run it concurrently with Super, it's still a major risk that Goku will steal the spotlight simply because he's familiar to the accustomed audience. New generation should have a breathing space and proper chance to shine and the audience would have to be kind of 'forced' to at least give it a chance. Star Wars Episode 7 mostly does it by having the new cast lead the film while the old iconic characters are in relevant but supporting roles.
That is testing the waters, before going full out. It's a bad idea to force a big change on people. Let good writing and characters speak for itself. If a spin off was good, it'd do just fine garnering attention. Star Wars 7 didn't have a choice because the old cast are now past their prime after all these years. Star Wars is a live action movie unlike an anime where characters are timeless. Guys like Mark Hamil and Harrison Ford are past their prime. If this were years ago while they were still young, a new generation would probably bug people more.
It's a legitimate continuation if it's marketed as one. Some call backs and references can be made between the two series to connect them more. There's no reason to take such a big risk just cause a minority of people are bored of Goku. If the current direction sells, there's no reason to throw it all away in a risky move. Making a spin off that goes along with what we have is perfectly fine. Comics and video games do this all the time. Some TV Shows and movies do this too.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
I like EoZ Goten. How would the plot get him back into training though? Gokû's the only one who bugged him about it and he's off training Uub at the end of the manga.
If it's characters from the current cast, it wouldn't be so bad. It's stuff like so-and-so's great great great great great grandchildren that turns me away.
Basaku wrote:Pass it down to next generation then. If Star Wars can do it succesfully after 40 years, DB can do it too.
I think stories like Star Wars have it easier than Dragonball. Some stories focus more on an adventure or some kind of issue they have to resolve that doesn't involve raw power. In DBZ, the main heroes are constantly getting stronger so the villains have to be bigger and badder than the last in order to be a threat. Now it's to the point where they have to hold back to avoid destroying an entire universe. That was during the first saga of Super so there's no telling how strong they'll be by the end. For example, if Super ends with SSJB Vegetto vs a villain threatening to wipe out the entire multiverse then what would be left for Uub and the next generation? I don't think they would start over with weaker villains and work their way up again. Freeza could surpass SSJ God within four months training on his own so imagine how powerful Uub, the reincarnation of the manga's most powerful villain, could get after training with Goku or Whis for a few years.
Goku and Vegeta are the two main reasons why this franchise is still relevant. Even Akira himself knows it and he even had an funny little manga panels about it the 30th Db anniversary book. The vast majority of Dragon Balls fans do not even want to see an next gen thing and a lot of them even despise Uub and hope he never appears.
I even did an poll on an site and 87% of the people said they did not want an next gen thing.
Basaku wrote:Pass it down to next generation then. If Star Wars can do it succesfully after 40 years, DB can do it too.
I think stories like Star Wars have it easier than Dragonball. Some stories focus more on an adventure or some kind of issue they have to resolve that doesn't involve raw power. In DBZ, the main heroes are constantly getting stronger so the villains have to be bigger and badder than the last in order to be a threat. Now it's to the point where they have to hold back to avoid destroying an entire universe. That was during the first saga of Super so there's no telling how strong they'll be by the end. For example, if Super ends with SSJB Vegetto vs a villain threatening to wipe out the entire multiverse then what would be left for Uub and the next generation? I don't think they would start over with weaker villains and work their way up again. Freeza could surpass SSJ God within four months training on his own so imagine how powerful Uub, the reincarnation of the manga's most powerful villain, could get after training with Goku or Whis for a few years.
For me is hard to connect DBS with EoZ, like you said when Super ends Goku probably would have surpassed Whis/Vados... So really why the f*** would he still be impressed by a kid that is Pure Boo-tier? Isn't Base God Goku stronger than Boo-han now? I don't see these things interconnecting, I hope we get an explanation in the future,
or else one of the two: DBS will be not canon or EoZ will be reconnected.
Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?
Spoiler:
Nickolaidas wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:10 am
Guys, I'm going to be straight with you. If you feel the show has gotten 'silly' ... it hasn't. You're just 'too old for this shit'. Seriously, 95% of the people in those boards do not fit the target demographic of the show, so don't expect the show to be 'everything you hoped for'. I'm referring to the people here who expect Super to be rich with dark moments, serious storytelling, meaningful characters etc etc. It won't. It's a show for kids. A show for kids being kids. Everyone in those boards has a manchild in him/her, clamoring to get out, and that's fine. But having unrealistic expectations (such as believing the show grew up alongside you) is naïve at best. Honestly, do you take seriously a story where the supposed God of Destruction halts his urges to blow up stuff in order to eat ice cream sundae? That's the show's silliness at full force, take it for what it is. The show hasn't matured one bit, so don't expect it too. Again, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying *that* is DB and always will be.
Basaku wrote:Pass it down to next generation then. If Star Wars can do it succesfully after 40 years, DB can do it too.
I think stories like Star Wars have it easier than Dragonball. Some stories focus more on an adventure or some kind of issue they have to resolve that doesn't involve raw power. In DBZ, the main heroes are constantly getting stronger so the villains have to be bigger and badder than the last in order to be a threat. Now it's to the point where they have to hold back to avoid destroying an entire universe. That was during the first saga of Super so there's no telling how strong they'll be by the end. For example, if Super ends with SSJB Vegetto vs a villain threatening to wipe out the entire multiverse then what would be left for Uub and the next generation? I don't think they would start over with weaker villains and work their way up again. Freeza could surpass SSJ God within four months training on his own so imagine how powerful Uub, the reincarnation of the manga's most powerful villain, could get after training with Goku or Whis for a few years.
For me is hard to connect DBS with EoZ, like you said when Super ends Goku probably would have surpassed Whis/Vados... So really why the f*** would he still be impressed by a kid that is Pure Boo-tier? Isn't Base God Goku stronger than Boo-han now? I don't see these things interconnecting, I hope we get an explanation in the future,
or else one of the two: DBS will be not canon or EoZ will be reconnected.
A kid with access to Buu's power WITHOUT training is incredible, with training under a post Whis Goku, Uub could become ridiculously powerful.
Chuquita wrote:Gokû and Vegeta are the main draw for me in Dragon Ball, so if they were to be dumped for a next gen I'd probably stop following the series and go find something else to watch. ^^;
Agreed.I will stop watching the series if Goku/Vegeta will be replaced as the main
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
I don't think it will be hard at all to start with a new cast... Everyone thought Yugi Muto would be irreplaceable even though the series is still a success after 4-5 spin-offs, Naruto is getting its Boruto sequel manga which will fade out the old cast and One Piece probably will too once the original ends. If it where to be placed years after Goku's time on U7 or in a different universe completely it can be done. Of course some people still won't care for it since it's not Goku but there would be a lot of people coming around if it was a good spin off. I'm very open minded though and will give anything Dragon Ball related especially a try. I honestly think there will be spin-offs because of this 12 universe thing and because it took this long just to clear Universe 7. I don't think we are going to go through all 12 in our lifetime... At the end of the day it comes down to money and Dragon Ball's the biggest cow they can milk. If people can sit through 3 re-tellings of BOG and ROF (including the manga which ROF was cut from) I really don't think a new cast entirely would be a big problem especially with the new generation of fans who didn't grow up with the original cast. I know I'll probably get told "but Yu-Gi-Oh! anime is to keep the card game sells strong and its different from Dragon Ball" but in all honestly Super is the same way with toys and action figures because its a gold mine. The milking has already begun....
Also for what it's worth, I was one of those people who thought Yugi was irreplaceable but 5D's ended up becoming my favorite and on the flip side there are people that won't even give it a try just because of motorcycles. It really isn't as crazy as it sounds... It actually works well. They are continuing the Naruto world and even brining back the original Yu-Gi-Oh! in the latest movie... I really don't think Toei will let the DB franchise slip through their fingers either.
As long as they have good characters people would warm up to a new cast. There would obviously be the knee jerk reactions at first, but as long as the cast was good people would get over it.
ArchedThunder wrote:As long as they have good characters people would warm up to a new cast. There would obviously be the knee jerk reactions at first, but as long as the cast was good people would get over it.
People really don't have enough faith in Toriyama I suppose. I'm sure he could do it. Guess to some he just got lucky with Goku and he'd never be able to anything good again.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Does anyone remember the slice of life ep in btw bog & rof where pan is born, Hercule and great saiyaman/ Gohan are play fighting to keep pan entertained and they started to play with pan as if she's a handball and chichi interrupts them and start yelling at them, chichi says to Gohan she wants her to grow up the way she wants Gohan and Hercule disagree's they both tell her that they want her to grow up as a martial artist anyhow my point is what if Akira toriyama is indicating that pan will lead the new generation of fighters with bulla if she's born....
"You may have invaded my mind and my body, but there's one thing a Saiyan always keeps! His pride!"
Ssgvegito30 wrote:Does anyone remember the slice of life ep in btw bog & rof where pan is born, (the H-word) and great saiyaman/ Gohan are play fighting to keep pan entertained and they started to play with pan as if she's a handball and chichi interrupts them and start yelling at them, chichi says to Gohan she wants her to grow up the way she wants Gohan and (the H-word) disagree's they both tell her that they want her to grow up as a martial artist anyhow my point is what if Akira toriyama is indicating that pan will lead the new generation of fighters with bulla if she's born....
Goku at the end of Z had a different uniform than he has now (by Whis). Do you guys think he will be trained by somebody else again. Because he always switch his uniform when trained by somebody else.
Pannaliciour wrote:Goku at the end of Z had a different uniform than he has now (by Whis). Do you guys think he will be trained by somebody else again. Because he always switch his uniform when trained by somebody else.
I dont know... Because there now no other character than Whis who could train him... Maybe in the futher? What about Gohan and Piccolo? Do you think they would have other uniforms? Piccolo dont have other clothes in the manga tournament but maybe after when he and Gohan are finisht with training? Gohan has now a ugly green trainingsuite...
Changing lead characters in Universe 7 would be stupid.
The best thing would be to make the new guys from other universes appealing and then tell their story from the beginning.
We can also have a short spin off on what happens on Future Trunks' timeline, I would love that. Also spin off on the legendary SSJ, on the original SSJ God etc...
悟 “Vincit qui se vincit”
What I consider canonical
Spoiler:
Dragon Ball Manga
Jaco: The Galactic Patrolman
Yo! Son Goku and Friends Return
Additional lore from Toriyama
Dragon Ball Daima
