"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Doctor.]

SSJB was weakened due to the stamina drain with transformation.

No, that doesn't work. Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta ate a Senzu a few chapters ago and still got beaten down by Super Saiyan Black. Vegeta got dozens of times stronger to pull this feat off and that power increase is mentioned nowhere. It's just bad writing.

[batistabus]

Buu was always treated as a serious threat even in the beginning.

Boo is just as much a gag as a serious threat. He starts off too strong to handle / Gotenks starts beating on him, causing him to yell out in desperation to escape the RoSaT / Boo absorbs Gotenks and Piccolo / Gohan starts beating on Boo, again putting him in a desperate situation / Boo absorbs Gohan / Vegetto starts beating on Boo, even as candy / Boo eats Vegetto / Vegetto outsmarts Boo / Vegetto is defused, "pure" Boo starts beating on Goku, Vegeta, and Mr. Boo / Genkidama.

I still don't get how the hell Vegeta's strategy is working if Black was pounding SSB Vegeta into the dirt even before going Rosé. I know Vegeta is getting the upperhand due to the quick burst in speed and power, but that quick burst shouldn't matter in the slightest, considering how Black should be massively above him.

And further, if the two God forms are so close in power that Vegeta is comfortable using SSG against Black, and yet Blue has such massive stamina drain when transforming and even when active, then why the fuck is Blue even useful? Rosé doesn't seem to have the same issues, Black is using it just fine.

I think the idea is that even by default, SSJB was weakened due to the stamina drain with transformation. So, by cutting that and the stamina drain from keeping the form on, Vegeta not only avoids losing power, he's also instantly powered up compared to before. Kind of like how the permanent SSJ transformation back in the Cell Games also effectively raised Goku's power by a lot even though it was just cutting the ki drain of the form.

Here's my take...maybe it's the same as yours? I'm not quite sure. Goku explains Vegeta's technique as releasing the power of SSB in a "burst". This intense "burst" of ki channels (or forces out) more from of SSB than would normally be possible for a single attack.

Vegeta got dozens of times stronger to pull this feat off and that power increase is mentioned nowhere. It's just bad writing.

You cannot apply this type of logic to Dragon Ball, and you cannot assume that the difference in strength is that great. People have been getting ridiculous power-ups in short amounts of time since the beginning of the series. He gained this power increase by training in the RoSaT and Goku explains it plainly.

[Doctor.]

He gained this power increase by training in the RoSaT and Goku explains it plainly.

No, what Goku explains is that Vegeta mastered Super Saiyan Blue and came up with this strategy to defeat Black. Nowhere is it mentioned that Vegeta's actual power increased. It makes sense if it didn't, since Vegeta would have obviously been preoccupied with getting SSG and mastering SSB. Again, it's bad writing.

[batistabus]

No, what Goku explains is that Vegeta mastered Super Saiyan Blue and came up with this strategy to defeat Black. Nowhere is it mentioned that Vegeta's actual power increased. It makes sense if it didn't, since Vegeta would have obviously been preoccupied with getting SSG and mastering SSB. Again, it's bad writing.

Do you expect that Vegeta was sitting in the RoSaT turning SSB on and off 24/7? He must've done other training, as well as improving his peak in both forms. I just find it weird that some people are complaining that there's too much exposition, while others refuse to consider any other possibilities unless they are explicitly stated.

[Doctor.]

Do you expect that Vegeta was sitting in the RoSaT turning SSB on and off 24/7? He must've done other training, as well as improving his peak in both forms. I just find it weird that some people are complaining that there's too much exposition, while others refuse to consider any other possibilities unless they are explicitly stated.

Yes, his training probably consisted of achieving SSG, since it's clearly implied he didn't have the form before this point, and mastering his strategy, which is what Goku stated his training consisted of. If his power had increased, characters would have told us it increased (hell, even Black says Vegeta isn't much too different).

My job as a reader isn't to explain what the author can't be bothered to explain. You take what you get, you don't make up excuses for the author.

[dbzfan7]

My job as a reader isn't to explain what the author can't be bothered to explain. You take what you get, you don't make up excuses for the author.

That's basically what I say for the anime . But yeah even when explaining the manga has really be falling apart. At least it tries, even if it fails at it. XD

[TheMikado]

My job as a reader isn't to explain what the author can't be bothered to explain. You take what you get, you don't make up excuses for the author.

That's basically what I say for the anime . But yeah even when explaining the manga has really be falling apart. At least it tries, even if it fails at it. XD

I feel the same exact way dbzfan7
I only like the manga over the anime because I have to do less of that that the anime doesn't bother to explain.

[batistabus]

Yes, his training probably consisted of achieving SSG, since it's clearly implied he didn't have the form before this point, and mastering his strategy, which is what Goku stated his training consisted of. If his power had increased, characters would have told us it increased (hell, even Black says Vegeta isn't much too different).

My job as a reader isn't to explain what the author can't be bothered to explain. You take what you get, you don't make up excuses for the author.

It is never implied in the manga that Vegeta didn't have the form before. Hell, it's not even stated in the anime that Vegeta can't access that form...just that he attained god ki without the ritual. Black says Vegeta doesn't look different in base form...which he doesn't. Black is soon made to eat those words.

In writing, the author shouldn't be expected to hold your hand to understand basic implications. It's unnecessary and makes for redundant reading. The RoSaT is a place that puts tremendous strain on a persons body, so even IF Vegeta didn't do a single thing but work on this technique the entire time, he would've toughened up anyway. Just because this is a manga for children, that doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to read between the lines.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

It is never implied in the manga that Vegeta didn't have the form before.

It's pretty much implied by the fact that he never used it before his most recent training despite the fact that it would have been exceedingly convenient to do so.

[batistabus]

It's pretty much implied by the fact that he never used it before his most recent training despite the fact that it would have been exceedingly convenient to do so.

When? Because he went SSB against Hit instead of God? That doesn't mean he didn't have it, it just as easily (and more likely) means that Toyotaro hadn't thought out this plot point yet. Just as Toriyama didn't feel beholden to what he had written before when advancing the story in interesting ways, Toyotaro doesn't/shouldn't either. Vegeta choosing to use a weakened SSB instead of God could also be explained as a miscalculation on Vegeta's part. That aside, Goku explains God as the stage before Blue, meaning God comes before Blue in a sequence. If Vegeta can take the power of Super Saiyan God and combine it with Super Saiyan Blue (as Goku also explains it), it makes sense that Vegeta can simply use the power of Super Saiyan God.

[Chuquita]

Something's not right here...

This throws me off more than any of the power scaling stuff. There's plenty of room in that dialogue bubble to type a hyphenated Kaka-rrot.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

It's pretty much implied by the fact that he never used it before his most recent training despite the fact that it would have been exceedingly convenient to do so.

When? Because he went SSB against Hit instead of God? That doesn't mean he didn't have it, it just as easily (and more likely) means that Toyotaro hadn't thought out this plot point yet.

Unless specifically retconned, it's the exact same thing. Considering that we see this form almost immediately after Vegeta trains for 6 months, it's perfectly safe to assume that he learned the form there. Not to say that Toyotaro can't change it later, but a simple application of Occam's Razor dictates that Vegeta's SSG is most likely new.

[batistabus]

This throws me off more than any of the power scaling stuff. There's plenty of room in that dialogue bubble to type a hyphenated Kaka-rrot.

Alternatively, [spoiler][/spoiler]

Considering that we see this form almost immediately after Vegeta trains for 6 months, it's perfectly safe to assume that he learned the form there. Not to say that Toyotaro can't change it later, but a simple application of Occam's Razor dictates that Vegeta's SSG is new.

I don't think it's safe to assume that at all. Black's thinking "why would he go back a step?", almost as if Black could've become God but saw no purpose in it. Even if Vegeta DID have to learn the form, that doesn't mean it would take very long, or that he wouldn't also have trained in the meantime.

[Chuquita]

This throws me off more than any of the power scaling stuff. There's plenty of room in that dialogue bubble to type a hyphenated Kaka-rrot.

Alternatively, [spoiler][/spoiler]

Also good. There's multiple ways to write it without having Vegeta call him Gokû.

[HeroR]

that is the popular opinion, my friend. have fun convincing many, the opposite.

Since when is popular opinion a fact?

I don't care about convincing people, but saying that the manga makes more sense as a fact because many people feel that way is a flawed. They are many people who think evolution if fake, does that mean it is correct?

[Cipher]

Revisiting the manga, I have to say I really enjoy it when viewing Toyotaro's condensed version of events as more short one-offs to be slotted within the ten-year gap in the style of the two recent movies. Without the burdens of character development, overall intentionality, etc. a long-running serial carries, his version offers most of what Toriyama's two movie scripts did: an opportunity for fun character interactions, colorful new antagonists, interesting world-building concepts, etc. Basically, I think had Toyotaro's versions of the Universe 6 and Future Trunks arc been offered as Battle of Gods 3 and 4, respectively, I'd have little bad to say about the new material. His takes are nearly every bit as fun as that movie and Resurrection "F," and for similar reasons.

Really the only misgivings I have with the manga are down to the concessions that have to be made for its promotional format (the rushed summary-style ending of the Universe 6 arc, for example) and, without taking anything away from him, Toyotaro being a much less exciting artist than Toriyama, though I understand he's also working with far more restrictions.

I doubt the ending of the Trunks arc in the manga will be as affecting as it was in the anime -- Super's single greatest accomplishment -- but the ride up to that point has been far easier to suffer.

[Black Hawk]

Revisiting the manga, I have to say I really enjoy it when viewing Toyotaro's condensed version of events as more short one-offs to be slotted within the ten-year gap in the style of the two recent movies. Without the burdens of character development, overall intentionality, etc. a long-running serial carries, his version offers most of what Toriyama's two movie scripts did: an opportunity for fun character interactions, colorful new antagonists, interesting world-building concepts, etc. Basically, I think had Toyotaro's versions of the Universe 6 and Future Trunks arc been offered as Battle of Gods 3 and 4, respectively, I'd have little bad to say about the new material. His takes are nearly every bit as fun as that movie and Resurrection "F," and for similar reasons.

I've been trying for a while now to put into words what it is I love so much about the manga adaptation, and you nailed it perfectly; I second everything you just said. The Champa and Trunks arcs feel more like short insert stories in the same vein as the 2008 Jump Special, Battle of Gods, and Revival of 「F」 instead of entire story arcs like the attack of the Saiyajin, the trials on Namek, the rise of the artificial humans, and Bobbidi's return to Earth. It's more like getting two movies succeeding Revival of 「F」, except we receive them in monthly pieces instead of the whole things all at once every two years. I really dig it.

[Basako]

It is never implied in the manga that Vegeta didn't have the form before.

It's pretty much implied by the fact that he never used it before his most recent training despite the fact that it would have been exceedingly convenient to do so.

No, it's not implied. We never saw him using it, that doesn't mean he didn't or couldn't. That he could is a fact now, that he did is a safe assumption, probably while he was training with Whis before the battle against Freezer. It's understandable that people thought he couldn't, but that was always an assumption, an unconfirmed head canon.

SSG is a saiyan using god ki. SSB is a saiyan using god ki in SS form, a SSGSS. It's not out of logic at all that Vegeta had the form before too. Maybe he decided to use the blue form before because it's more powerful. Should he have used the blue just to show it to Cabba? No, obviously, it would have been much better to show him the god form and save his stamina, but characters not making the best decisions aren't plotholes. He didn't think about that back then and in the last battle he considered better all the flaws and advantages of both states and he trained a way to use them both as we saw, with great results.

[Cipher]

I've been trying for a while now to put into words what it is I love so much about the manga adaptation, and you nailed it perfectly; I second everything you just said. The Champa and Trunks arcs feel more like short insert stories in the same vein as the 2008 Jump Special, Battle of Gods, and Revival of 「F」 instead of entire story arcs like the attack of the Saiyajin, the trials on Namek, the rise of the artificial humans, and Bobbidi's return to Earth. It's more like getting two movies succeeding Revival of 「F」, except we receive them in monthly pieces instead of the whole things all at once every two years. I really dig it.

Agreed. I think it also helps make it clear that Toriyama isn't outlining stories to provide the types of serials he wrote during the original run. Rather, these seem to be designed as short insert stories, to borrow your phrase, operating on only slightly more complex terms than the recent movies. And that makes so much more sense for the mid-quels they are. I find part of my frustration with the TV version actually comes from Toei's attempts to expand them past their natural breaking points, shining spotlights on characters and elements that don't need them. Fun inserts become weak expanded story lines.

People continue to complain about the manga's pacing, and I may have at points in the past as well, but having taken another trip through, I think it's just about perfect for the material. It's easy to picture these arcs as roughly two-hour films, not only in terms of length, but in scripting. They're punchy and fun and coherent, and everything relevant is fleshed out just enough. There are even better internal pay-offs within each story.

Going back to my earlier comment on Toyotaro's art being less exciting than Toriyama's, I've realized that part of what lends to this feeling (other than his genuinely not being as skilled) is that his pages are set up to include about twice as many panels as Toriyama's on average. It's probably a concession to the schedule and needing to move the story so far along each month. Some of his pages can almost be broken into what would be two clear Toriyama-esque pages stacked vertically. There isn't quite as much room for awe and impact. Despite this, he still manages to get good pacing and action out of them, occasionally with really stellar choreography. It does limit the impact though. C'est la vie.

[OLKv3]

Which is why a lot of people want OVAs/Movies of the manga arcs. They can all fit neatly into 2 hour movies, if even that much time is needed.