"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I find part of my frustration with the TV version actually comes from Toei's attempts to expand them past their natural breaking points, shining spotlights on characters and elements that don't need them. Fun inserts become weak expanded story lines.

People continue to complain about the manga's pacing, and I may have at points in the past as well, but having taken another trip through, I think it's just about perfect for the material. It's easy to picture these arcs as roughly two-hour films, not only in terms of length, but in scripting. They're punchy and fun and coherent, and everything relevant is fleshed out just enough. There are even better internal pay-offs within each story.

That's basically the conclusion I've come to. Toyotaro isn't perfect, but he gets what kind of stories these actually are. Toei's team doesn't, and the show suffers in pacing, in cohesion, and in overall entertainment value from it. Toei shamelessly sacrificed Dragon Ball's good streak when they decided to move to a weekly series, and in hindsight, these near-fatal problems that have plagued the series for almost 2 years were so predictable. I'd be lying if I said I didn't resent Toei even a little for that, maybe that's why I'm so forgiving of Toyotaro despite his flaws.

[Lord Beerus]

Because the SSB is the strongest form and he wanted to show him that, why doesn't it work? The ritual may be a way to obtain the SSG state, but not the only one. We are not sure how Vegeta obtained his red form, neither the blue.

And that's my major gripe with the whole scenario. I've torn into the anime for this and I'm not giving the manga any leeway either. It's just fucking lazy writing. I absolutely detest the notion that the manga is strongly implying that Vegeta achieved SSJG by just training in the ROSAT because it undermines damn near everything about Battle Of Gods.

But the Manga doesn't imply that, Goku isn't even surprised to see Vegeta in the red form, that would be implying that. Goku even explains to Trunks that it is the transformation before blue. If anything, it's implied he had it before the blue, but we just never saw him using it.

Vegeta states he needed Super Saiyan God to face Goku Black. Which I don't even really understand that much given that if he wanted to use a form to swap in and out of when attacking Goku Black with the short bursts of Super Saiyan Blue that he did, he could have just used SSJ1 or SSJ2. It wouldn't have made a difference and I feel as though Vegeta having Super Saiyan God was just done purely for fanservice

[Basako]

And that's my major gripe with the whole scenario. I've torn into the anime for this and I'm not giving the manga any leeway either. It's just fucking lazy writing. I absolutely detest the notion that the manga is strongly implying that Vegeta achieved SSJG by just training in the ROSAT because it undermines damn near everything about Battle Of Gods.

But the Manga doesn't imply that, Goku isn't even surprised to see Vegeta in the red form, that would be implying that. Goku even explains to Trunks that it is the transformation before blue. If anything, it's implied he had it before the blue, but we just never saw him using it.

Vegeta states he needed Super Saiyan God to face Goku Black. Which I don't even really understand that much given that if he wanted to use a form to swap in and out of when attacking Goku Black with the short bursts of Super Saiyan Blue that he did, he could have just used SSJ1 or SSJ2. I wouldn't have made a difference I feel as though Vegeta having Super Saiyan God was just done purely for fanservice

Probably the yellow forms aren't enough to dodge Black's attacks, the red form is much stronger and faster than the previous. Also, the red is the form right before the blue, so I can see quick jumps in and out between them better than with higher jumps. Like jumping from base to SS3 would require more effort and time than from SS2 to 3. I think it was great writing, a clever way to overcome the enemy with a good strategy and using a form that it's valid in the manga continuity. And very powerful, enough to face a holding back Beerus, which is not a minor thing.

[TheMikado]

But the Manga doesn't imply that, Goku isn't even surprised to see Vegeta in the red form, that would be implying that. Goku even explains to Trunks that it is the transformation before blue. If anything, it's implied he had it before the blue, but we just never saw him using it.

Vegeta states he needed Super Saiyan God to face Goku Black. Which I don't even really understand that much given that if he wanted to use a form to swap in and out of when attacking Goku Black with the short bursts of Super Saiyan Blue that he did, he could have just used SSJ1 or SSJ2. I wouldn't have made a difference I feel as though Vegeta having Super Saiyan God was just done purely for fanservice

Probably the yellow forms aren't enough to dodge Black's attacks, the red form is much stronger and faster than the previous. Also, the red is the form right before the blue, so I can see quick jumps in and out between them better than with higher jumps. Like jumping from base to SS3 would require more effort and time than from SS2 to 3. I think it was great writing, a clever way to overcome the enemy with a good strategy and using a form that it's valid in the manga continuity. And very powerful, enough to face a holding back Beerus, which is not a minor thing.

Agreed, like I said it's kinda cool that presumably the two forms have different stats and not linear scaling in a way that makes the both relevant. It's really awful that the power scaling in DB makes things obsolete. This is thst idea of technique coming into play that everyone claims they love. It's weird because this one is actually in a similar realm of power rather making something like SSJ used again for presumable no reason. In the anime SSB is th strongest fastest form with perfect ki control and no draw backs. Why would they ever use anything thing else?? I guess you can always make the excuse that they were holding back but now that SSB Goku can hold back to Krillin levels there's really no excuse to ever use SSJ in the anime.

Anyway Vegeta getting SSB or God ki at all without any real explanation was always BS. We still don't know of Vegeta did the ritual or trained with Whis and got it but however he did we know he has it prior to RoF as a prerequisite to SSB. So it does answer one question, I'm not mad at it for not answering the dozen or so other questions that should have been answered back in RoF. Now that was bad writing.

As for why not showing SSG to Cabba? I assume for the same reasons he didn't show SSJ2.

[Lord Beerus]

But the Manga doesn't imply that, Goku isn't even surprised to see Vegeta in the red form, that would be implying that. Goku even explains to Trunks that it is the transformation before blue. If anything, it's implied he had it before the blue, but we just never saw him using it.

Vegeta states he needed Super Saiyan God to face Goku Black. Which I don't even really understand that much given that if he wanted to use a form to swap in and out of when attacking Goku Black with the short bursts of Super Saiyan Blue that he did, he could have just used SSJ1 or SSJ2. I wouldn't have made a difference I feel as though Vegeta having Super Saiyan God was just done purely for fanservice

Probably the yellow forms aren't enough to dodge Black's attacks, the red form is much stronger and faster than the previous. Also, the red is the form right before the blue, so I can see quick jumps in and out between them better than with higher jumps. Like jumping from base to SS3 would require more effort and time than from SS2 to 3. I think it was great writing, a clever way to overcome the enemy with a good strategy and using a form that it's valid in the manga continuity. And very powerful, enough to face a holding back Beerus, which is not a minor thing.

But Super Saiyan forms don't scale up your speed. They only increase your raw strength. Plus, we literally see in several occasions Vegeta and Goku power up from base or SSJ straight to SSJB with no trouble at all.

[Doctor.]

What a minute, your premise is false because Goku specifically stated SSG is the form preceding SSB, implying that form MUST be achieved first prior to SSB. Basically stating that Vegeta had SSG at least prior to the first time he went SSB. As for the power gains and whatever. I don't think there's any excuse for it. My only thought is that SSG gives a speed advantage and SSB gives a raw power advantage which is actually a very cool way to use different Saiyans forms rather than them all scaling linearly on all stats. So to recap, no the power levels aren't going to make much sense, but if the two forms grant slightly different stat bonuses I think that's a novel way to make multiple forms relevant. Just my take on it.

Vegeta skipped SS3 before.

[Basako]

Vegeta states he needed Super Saiyan God to face Goku Black. Which I don't even really understand that much given that if he wanted to use a form to swap in and out of when attacking Goku Black with the short bursts of Super Saiyan Blue that he did, he could have just used SSJ1 or SSJ2. I wouldn't have made a difference I feel as though Vegeta having Super Saiyan God was just done purely for fanservice

Probably the yellow forms aren't enough to dodge Black's attacks, the red form is much stronger and faster than the previous. Also, the red is the form right before the blue, so I can see quick jumps in and out between them better than with higher jumps. Like jumping from base to SS3 would require more effort and time than from SS2 to 3. I think it was great writing, a clever way to overcome the enemy with a good strategy and using a form that it's valid in the manga continuity. And very powerful, enough to face a holding back Beerus, which is not a minor thing.

But Super Saiyan forms don't scale up your speed. They only increase your raw strength. Plus, we literally see in several occasions Vegeta and Goku power up from base or SSJ straight to SSJB with no trouble at all.

But we are talking about jumping in and out between this two quickly, not just one transformation to mantain. This makes a difference, a smaller gap is preferable. I don't think strength is the only stat improved when transforming, speed, resistance and others would be too. And for this matter, if it would be only strength, then there the reason to use it above the yellows you were asking.

[Lord Beerus]

Probably the yellow forms aren't enough to dodge Black's attacks, the red form is much stronger and faster than the previous. Also, the red is the form right before the blue, so I can see quick jumps in and out between them better than with higher jumps. Like jumping from base to SS3 would require more effort and time than from SS2 to 3. I think it was great writing, a clever way to overcome the enemy with a good strategy and using a form that it's valid in the manga continuity. And very powerful, enough to face a holding back Beerus, which is not a minor thing.

But Super Saiyan forms don't scale up your speed. They only increase your raw strength. Plus, we literally see in several occasions Vegeta and Goku power up from base or SSJ straight to SSJB with no trouble at all.

But we are talking about jumping in and out between this two quickly, not just one transformation to mantain. This makes a difference, a smaller gap is preferable. I don't think strength is the only stat improved when transforming, speed, resistance and others would be too. And for this matter, if it would be only strength, then there the reason to use it above the yellows you were asking.

But Vegeta isn't using Super Saiyan God for strength.

[Basako]

But Super Saiyan forms don't scale up your speed. They only increase your raw strength. Plus, we literally see in several occasions Vegeta and Goku power up from base or SSJ straight to SSJB with no trouble at all.

But we are talking about jumping in and out between this two quickly, not just one transformation to mantain. This makes a difference, a smaller gap is preferable. I don't think strength is the only stat improved when transforming, speed, resistance and others would be too. And for this matter, if it would be only strength, then there the reason to use it above the yellows you were asking.

But Vegeta isn't using Super Saiyan God for strength.

He is using it for various reasons. I said he is using it above the yellows because it's stronger because you said it wouldn't make a difference from them. This is wrong, because it's way stronger than the yellows, plus presumably better in the rest of the stats too. He is also using it because it doesn't drain the stamina like the blue and, as I said, for the strategy of jumping in and out quikly between two states, is preferable a smaller jump. And based on the body shape, I guess it's a perfect state to dodge attacks too. Based on the actual battle too.

[Lord Beerus]

But we are talking about jumping in and out between this two quickly, not just one transformation to mantain. This makes a difference, a smaller gap is preferable. I don't think strength is the only stat improved when transforming, speed, resistance and others would be too. And for this matter, if it would be only strength, then there the reason to use it above the yellows you were asking.

But Vegeta isn't using Super Saiyan God for strength.

He is using it for various reasons. I said he is using it above the yellows because it's stronger because you said it wouldn't make a difference from them. This is wrong, because it's way stronger than the yellows, plus presumably in the rest of the stats too. He is also using it because it doesn't drain the stamina like the blue and, as I said, for the strategy of jumping in and out quikly between two states, is preferable a smaller jump.

Whether he's in his base form, as Super Saiyan, or a Super Saiyan God, it doesn't matter in regards to his transition to Super Saiyan Blue. He does it instantly without any worry or strain.

[Basako]

But Vegeta isn't using Super Saiyan God for strength.

He is using it for various reasons. I said he is using it above the yellows because it's stronger because you said it wouldn't make a difference from them. This is wrong, because it's way stronger than the yellows, plus presumably in the rest of the stats too. He is also using it because it doesn't drain the stamina like the blue and, as I said, for the strategy of jumping in and out quikly between two states, is preferable a smaller jump.

Whether he's in his base form, as Super Saiyan, or a Super Saiyan God, it doesn't matter in regards to his transition to Super Saiyan Blue. He does it instantly without any worry or strain.

Again, we are talking about very quick jumps between two states, not just one transformation to mantain. The jumps being smaller must make it easier, this is pure logic. Plus the other reasons, stronger than the yellows and a good body shape to dodge. And maybe he should have worried about the way he transformed in to blue before, as it could affect on the stamina draining.

[TheMikado]

But Vegeta isn't using Super Saiyan God for strength.

He is using it for various reasons. I said he is using it above the yellows because it's stronger because you said it wouldn't make a difference from them. This is wrong, because it's way stronger than the yellows, plus presumably in the rest of the stats too. He is also using it because it doesn't drain the stamina like the blue and, as I said, for the strategy of jumping in and out quikly between two states, is preferable a smaller jump.

Whether he's in his base form, as Super Saiyan, or a Super Saiyan God, it doesn't matter in regards to his transition to Super Saiyan Blue. He does it instantly without any worry or strain.

I don't think that SSJ forms would have the stats needed to dodge attacks. It would be like if SSJ only increased raw power and not speed, but kaioken increased speed but not as strong as SSJ. Goku would have a reason to use both based on the circumstances instead on one being obsolete.

[TheMikado]

What a minute, your premise is false because Goku specifically stated SSG is the form preceding SSB, implying that form MUST be achieved first prior to SSB. Basically stating that Vegeta had SSG at least prior to the first time he went SSB. As for the power gains and whatever. I don't think there's any excuse for it. My only thought is that SSG gives a speed advantage and SSB gives a raw power advantage which is actually a very cool way to use different Saiyans forms rather than them all scaling linearly on all stats. So to recap, no the power levels aren't going to make much sense, but if the two forms grant slightly different stat bonuses I think that's a novel way to make multiple forms relevant. Just my take on it.

Vegeta skipped SS3 before.

SSJ3 isn't a prerequisite to anything so there's no skipping. He achieved different transformations not successive ones after SSJ2.

[Lord Beerus]

He is using it for various reasons. I said he is using it above the yellows because it's stronger because you said it wouldn't make a difference from them. This is wrong, because it's way stronger than the yellows, plus presumably in the rest of the stats too. He is also using it because it doesn't drain the stamina like the blue and, as I said, for the strategy of jumping in and out quikly between two states, is preferable a smaller jump.

Whether he's in his base form, as Super Saiyan, or a Super Saiyan God, it doesn't matter in regards to his transition to Super Saiyan Blue. He does it instantly without any worry or strain.

Again, we are talking about very quick jumps between two states, not just one transformation to mantain. The jumps being smaller must make it easier, this is pure logic. Plus the other reasons, stronger than the yellows and a good body shape to dodge. And maybe he should have worried about the way he transformed in to blue before, as it could affect on the stamina draining.

The SSJ forms do not scale up speed. They only scale up raw power. And I've said before, we've seen Goku go from base to SSJ3 or SSJB and Vegeta from to base or SSJ to SSJB several times. What transformation they have previous the next SSJ form they want to transform into has no barring how well they can perform in battle or how well they change from one transformation to another in the midst of battle.

[alakazam^]

Vegeta states he needed Super Saiyan God to face Goku Black.

He needs it because it's the best form to use in the strategy he came up with. It doesn't imply he didn't have it before.

[Basako]

Whether he's in his base form, as Super Saiyan, or a Super Saiyan God, it doesn't matter in regards to his transition to Super Saiyan Blue. He does it instantly without any worry or strain.

Again, we are talking about very quick jumps between two states, not just one transformation to mantain. The jumps being smaller must make it easier, this is pure logic. Plus the other reasons, stronger than the yellows and a good body shape to dodge. And maybe he should have worried about the way he transformed in to blue before, as it could affect on the stamina draining.

The SSJ forms do not scale up speed. They only scale up raw power. And I've said before, we've seen Goku go from base to SSJ3 or SSJB and Vegeta from to base or SSJ to SSJB several times. What transformation they have previous the next SSJ form they want to transform into has no barring how well they can perform in battle or how well they change from one transformation to another in the midst of battle.

It's not true SS transformations only affect raw power, we are certain they can affect the body shape too and directly or not, the speed too, we saw this in the USS form in the Cell arc. Now, dismiss this evidence and continue saying they only affect raw power. The SSG state, as the USS, is a transformation that has specific body shape change, fitter than anyone else.

And it's pure logic that to make quick jumps bettween two states, it's prefereable to the gap between them to be smaller. The act of transforming has stamina draining effects too, let's see three transfomation examples:

Base > Blue > Base > Blue > Base > Blue

Base > Blue > SS > Blue > SS > Blue

Base > Blue > Red > Blue > Red > Blue

In the third case he doesn't have to unlock so much power over and over again, which could explain how he spends much less stamina like this.

[Totamo]

how you guys going to feel if they remove all the recruitment episodes and the exhibition matches from the manga

[Basako]

how you guys going to feel if they remove all the recruitment episodes and the exhibition matches from the manga

I'd be very dissapointed, but I don't think that's gonna happen. There may be some interesting differences tough.

[emperior]

Whether he's in his base form, as Super Saiyan, or a Super Saiyan God, it doesn't matter in regards to his transition to Super Saiyan Blue. He does it instantly without any worry or strain.

Again, we are talking about very quick jumps between two states, not just one transformation to mantain. The jumps being smaller must make it easier, this is pure logic. Plus the other reasons, stronger than the yellows and a good body shape to dodge. And maybe he should have worried about the way he transformed in to blue before, as it could affect on the stamina draining.

The SSJ forms do not scale up speed. They only scale up raw power. And I've said before, we've seen Goku go from base to SSJ3 or SSJB and Vegeta from to base or SSJ to SSJB several times. What transformation they have previous the next SSJ form they want to transform into has no barring how well they can perform in battle or how well they change from one transformation to another in the midst of battle.

SSJ increases a Saiyan power (power level) by 50 times. It increases power, speed, reflexes etc... like Kaio-Ken does. If it only increased raw power like punching power, Kaio-Ken would be much better. It was clear ever since Goku turned SSJ that his speed increased, he immediately stopped Freezer from trying to kill Gohan. Also when Gohan turned SSJ2 everyone were amazed by his incredible speed.

[Totamo]

how you guys going to feel if they remove all the recruitment episodes and the exhibition matches from the manga

I'd be very dissapointed, but I don't think that's gonna happen. There may be some interesting differences tough.

The battle junkie fans will love it. The power scale will be left resonable untouched. you know at the cost of characters having focus though.