Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[WittyUsername]

I've got to be honest here, I think it's past time that we stop trying to make sense of power levels in Dragon Ball. It's clear that the writers couldn't care less about that stuff. Frankly, the only thing that power levels have really done for the series is sparking a bunch of heated debates in the fandom.

That's modern Dragonball for you... remember when the most we argued about was which Buu was strongest and how strong FSSJ was? Sigh those were the days

It's kind of crazy to think that back in the pre-BoG days, one of the reasons many people tried to argue about GT's lack of quality was in regards to how inconsistently strong Goku was shown to be. Yet Super has arguably been more inconsistent about power levels than GT ever was.

I'm not even arguing in favor of GT, or against Super. Both shows have their ups and downs. It just seems rather ironic to me.

[TheMikado]

I've got to be honest here, I think it's past time that we stop trying to make sense of power levels in Dragon Ball. It's clear that the writers couldn't care less about that stuff. Frankly, the only thing that power levels have really done for the series is sparking a bunch of heated debates in the fandom.

That's modern Dragonball for you... remember when the most we argued about was which Buu was strongest and how strong FSSJ was? Sigh those were the days

It's kind of crazy to think that back in the pre-BoG days, one of the reasons many people tried to argue about GT's lack of quality was in regards to how inconsistently strong Goku was shown to be. Yet Super has arguably been more inconsistent about power levels than GT ever was.

I'm not even arguing in favor of GT, or against Super. Both shows have their ups and downs. It just seems rather ironic to me.

My prediction is that history and the international market will not be kind to Super.

[Cabba]

Yes, Piccolo surpassed his base form despite still being beneath the Super Saiyans, that's what the story clearly implies. I'm sorry if that doesn't work well with your numbers or whatever.

I dont work in numbers just tiers, and no at no point in the story is implied as such or stated as fact
Goku was training with him in his base form, i dont see how you can make sense of Gokus power just stagnating like that and Piccolo go from second form freeza tier to above final freeza tier
Your Head cannon of Gokus base power just sitting idling post namek is much more ridiculous than the idea Goku got 50% or 2x stronger since namek during the android Saga

SSJ is a multiplier after all, if your base power stagnates you wont get any stronger. Besides this is DBS where is clearly established how base Goku at the very least is Perfect Cell tier

still Bergamo wasn't using his full power,I'm just gonna wait for his performance, but we could say a surpressed Bergamo is stronger than a non drugged Basil and lavenda, and keep in mind these two are around ssj2 tier and I agree,goku suppressing himself was portrayed poorly,I would have preferred if he was in his Base form only and he use ssb to one shot krillin,I'm hoping the manga goes to this route

Thats fair, my only intent with that post is to show more evidence base goku got much stronger than he was during the majin arc and to dispel this flawed assumption that they went back to it

Base Goku should be 100x stronger than Krillin...
What the hell happened?

Spectacle and flashy over substance happened

[Doctor.]

Goku was training with him in his base form, i dont see how you can make sense of Gokus power just stagnating like that and Piccolo go from second form freeza tier to above final freeza tier

Because Dragon Ball doesn't function on mathematics, it functions on what Toriyama wants it to function. If it doesn't make sense, well then too bad, it's what the story implies.

Also, nothing tells us Piccolo is above Freeza because nothing tells us the androids are above Freeza anyway.

Your Head cannon of Gokus base power just sitting idling post namek is much more ridiculous than the idea Goku got 50% or 2x stronger since namek during the android Saga

It's not headcanon when it's clearly backed up by Beerus himself.

SSJ is a multiplier after all, if your base power stagnates you wont get any stronger. Besides this is DBS where is clearly established how base Goku at the very least is Perfect Cell tier

Yes, SSJ is a multiplier and even a small increase in your base form can lead you to become massively stronger as a Super Saiyan. DBS establishes plenty of things, thinking it has any kind of internal consistency is stupid and that's my entire point, the characters are as strong as the writers want them to be.

[Cabba]

It's kind of crazy to think that back in the pre-BoG days, one of the reasons many people tried to argue about GT's lack of quality was in regards to how inconsistently strong Goku was shown to be. Yet Super has arguably been more inconsistent about power levels than GT ever was.
I'm not even arguing in favor of GT, or against Super. Both shows have their ups and downs. It just seems rather ironic to me.

Goku needing to turn SSJ4 to prevent a building from falling still haunts me to this day or when he stupidly made Super Android 17 who was fighting on par with him (as SS2) stronger than SS4 by giving his ki

Because Dragon Ball doesn't function on mathematics, it functions on what Toriyama wants it to function. If it doesn't make sense, well then too bad, it's what the story implies.
Also, nothing tells us Piccolo is above Freeza because nothing tells us the androids are above Freeza anyway.

I'm not talking about mathematics just logic. Goku was already ahead of Piccolo and he improves at a faster rate than piccolo. Its reasonable to assume they are at least on par after 3 years of training, what you are proposing is more ridiculous
Good point about Android 19/20, Vegeta does mention 20 is fast. So they are at least as strong as final form freeza

It's not headcanon when it's clearly backed up by Beerus himself.

You cant have your cake and eat it too. If you accept Beerus line you accept Goku and Vegeta are above Vegeto tier on their base forms
Besides Beerus line was not conclusive of anything, he just said in this state i dont think you could defeat anyone. Goku was not powered up, for all we know he was showing 5000 of base power like he did against Ginyu

Yes, SSJ is a multiplier and even a small increase in your base form can lead you to become massively stronger as a Super Saiyan. DBS establishes plenty of things, thinking it has any kind of internal consistency is stupid and that's my entire point, the characters are as strong as the writers want them to be.

I always agreed with the bolded, its explained or justified when it happens, Krillin its not that strong, its just filler and spectacle
With a small increase of 2x post namek Goku would own Final form Freeza , i dont see how this seems some unfathomable to you. In DBS we already see base goku and vegeta are multiples times stronger than final form freeza

[WittyUsername]

It's kind of crazy to think that back in the pre-BoG days, one of the reasons many people tried to argue about GT's lack of quality was in regards to how inconsistently strong Goku was shown to be. Yet Super has arguably been more inconsistent about power levels than GT ever was.
I'm not even arguing in favor of GT, or against Super. Both shows have their ups and downs. It just seems rather ironic to me.

Goku needing to turn SSJ4 to prevent a building from falling still haunts me to this day or when he stupidly made Super Android 17 who was fighting on par with him (as SS2) stronger than SS4 by giving his ki

The building thing isn't that crazy when you remember that Goku once had to go Super Saiyan to be able to carry 40 tons.

[HybridSaiyan]

Base Goku should be 100x stronger than Krillin...
What the hell happened?

This

I honestly can't even follow the thread anymore.
There's some kind of argument that Krillin isn't in the same tier as Gohan or Goku at any level, base included, yet the other two held back enough to where Krillin could catch them off guard. To which I ask why even power up at all, and somehow it's to test Krillins resolve, yet he's consistently fought enemies way more powerful to himself which he stood no chance against in the saiyan arc, namek arc, and against Cell, and only now is his resolve being called into question.

Idk, I don't understand what it's trying to prove other than Krillin is ready and able to participate in the tournament. I just feel like there are better ways to test Krillin than putting him up against a SSB beam struggle.

If they could pull this stunt with Krillin then I'm positive they'll do something similar with Master Roshi to prove his worth in the team. The Saiyans were already 100x beyond the other cast by the Buu Saga, and since then Goku and Vegeta have became gods. There's no logical explanation how any of the other Z-fighters could match Goku and Vegeta right now. It's plain right fanservice, and anyone who says otherwise is just being a fanboy. You're right, I guess the solar flare x100 thing will be his signature move in this tournament. No doubt it was referencing the GT Goku 10x Kamehameha.

[Bullza]

Gohan tends to underestimate himself a lot, so I don't see how it's surprising.

That's still depending on if Gohan was actually referring to his Super Saiyan form which is unlikely as it is.

Then you're agreeing with me that their power was retconned and/or they're as strong as they need to be, I don't see what your argument is.

Oh yeah I said way back when Goku fought Gohan that there'd been some retcon. To what extent they've retconned is still something of a mystery.

Are they are back at their Buu saga levels since Krillin put up a decent fight? Are they around as strong as Piccolo since even Future Trunks was implied to be above Super Saiyan Kid Trunks? Are they stronger than Fat Buu? Are they as strong as Ultimate Gohan from Z?

Who the hell even knows anymore. My argument was that Base Gohan was likely stronger than Piccolo just because he still had some portion of his Ultimate are strength hence Gohan saying he couldn't bring out it's full power.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Kuririn's power in Super:
Personally, I believe that Kuririn (along with Tenshinhan & Yamcha) came close to the base Saiyans back when they all trained for the Artificial Humans (and not weaker than 2nd Form Freeza as many believe). This episode proves this, as it shows that Kuririn is weaker than base Goku & Gohan, but strong enough to overpower them with tricks, as Goku was forced to use Super Saiyan. The reason he used Super Saiyan Blue appears to be because he wanted to see what Kuririn would do against a powerful opponent so he went all out, but he was clearly holding back a lot when he used the Kamehameha.

Gohan's power in Super:
Gohan was clearly Ultimate Gohan in BoG arc, and clearly wasn't in FnF arc due to his lack of training. He expected Tagoma, who was still suppressing his power, to be at the same level as his in his base at full power, but it turned out that Tagoma was stronger than Piccolo, and Ginyu showed Tagoma's full power was even greater than that. Gohan tried to draw out his Ultimate power against Ginyu-Tagoma, but was unable to do so, which is why he went Super Saiyan to easily overpower him. He briefly started training with Piccolo after that, but soon stopped once again. Gohan seems to be currently at the same level he was in Boo arc before he became Ultimate except he can't use Super Saiyan 2 & rage boosts, but will soon become Ultimate Gohan once again.

Goku's power in Super:
In BoG, it looks like he is still at around the same level as he was in Boo arc. After he became a Super Saiyan God & absorbed its power, his base & Super Saiyan forms became about as strong as Super Saiyan God, and through further training with Whis his Super Saiyan form became Super Saiyan Blue, since Super Saiyan Blue is described as the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. After even more training with Vegeta inside the Room of Spirit and Time, they learned how to control the power of SSG, so they didn't use it in the tournament against Universe 6 (which is why their SS form is golden & not blue), but they obviously used it in the incident against Copy-Vegeta, as base Copy-Vegeta (who is exactly as strong as Vegeta) was much stronger that SS3 Gotenks, and base Goku was equal with him. He also didn't use the power of SSG at any point in the Future Trunks arc, but Goku Black was using the power of SSG which is why he was so strong in his base form. Yes, the two base theory is a thing so get over it already. Seems like the two base theory really is a thing, or everything falls apart. Besides, Super Saiyan Blue by its definition always confirmed it (and every time we see Goku, Vegeta, Copy-Vegeta, and Goku Black being super-powerful in their base forms, the only transformation they use is Super Saiyan Blue/Rosé... coincidence?).


So, the mortals so far that have reached the level of gods (Hakaishin & Angels, the Kamis, Kaios, and Kaioshins are all weak flies to them) are these:

Universe 6
Hit

Universe 7
Base with SSG power/Super Saiyan Blue Vegetto
Super Saiyan God/Base with SSG power/Super Saiyan Blue Goku
Base with SSG power/Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta
Super Saiyan Rage Trunks
Final Form/Golden Freeza

Universe 10
Merged Zamasu
Base with SSG power/Super Saiyan Rosé Goku Black

Universe 11
Jiren
Toppo


Goku & Vegeta in ther regular base, SS, SS2, and SS3 forms are a little stronger than they were in Boo arc, and everyone else (Gohan, Piccolo, base/SS/SS2 Future Trunks, Kuririn, Cabba, Frost, Present/Future Zamasu, etc) all fall somewhere between them, but they are nowhere near SSG level.


This last episode made things very clear, and it's been a long time since I took the anime seriously as far as battle powers are concerned. Now my faith to the anime is finally restored.

[Doctor.]

~powuhlevuls~

Yeah, this all seems about right, it's what I believe too. Though I think the Saiyans should be at least 2x stronger than they were in the Boo arc due to the Hit filler. And the 2-base theory only being an in-universe thing, out-of-universe it's obvious that they just retconned the powerlevels to what they want them to be. Also, Bergamo should be God tier at some point after absorbing SSB Goku's power, too.

[TheMikado]

^ there's no two base theory in the anime. We can argue that there should be but I don't think we can say they are purposely portraying a two base theory in the anime.

Let me be clear and say I believe the two base theory too but in the anime it is not explicitly written that way and seems to be just a gross out of universe production mistake. We just can't say it's in there because it should be because that's not how the story was written and it's in no way fair to more casual fans to make sense of.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Goku went from SS back to base, and then SSB, so I wouldn't be so sure that the anime writers just retconned things or messed things up. I think they just avoid to explain it because they believe it would be too complicated for the kids to understand, and they can't find the right time to do it either, so "whoever gets it got it" is their logic it seems.

[TheMikado]

Goku went from SS back to base, and then SSB, so I wouldn't be so sure that the anime writers just retconned things or messed things up. I think they just avoid to explain it because they believe it would be too complicated for the kids to understand, and they can't find the right time to do it either, so "whoever gets it got it" is their logic it seems.

Not really they had several options to do it right .

1) use the saiyan beyond God form. Simplistic and easy.
God ki on? Super white aura and SSB. No God ki, no aura and SSJ levels. Kids aren't that dumb. They understand Pokémon and Yugio.

2) keep SSG around, same effect as above.

[Noah]

There's no internal consistency in this show and we should stop pretending there is, the characters are as strong as they need to be.

The quicker everyone realizes this, the best.

So you're basically saying this thread has no purposes and people should stop discussing, right?

[Doctor.]

There's no internal consistency in this show and we should stop pretending there is, the characters are as strong as they need to be.

The quicker everyone realizes this, the best.

So you're basically saying this thread has no purposes and people should stop discussing, right?

They can discuss how strong a character is at a specific point, that's fine. We shouldn't just pretend like x character's strength is consistent throughout every episode.

[TheMikado]

There's no internal consistency in this show and we should stop pretending there is, the characters are as strong as they need to be.

The quicker everyone realizes this, the best.

So you're basically saying this thread has no purposes and people should stop discussing, right?

They can discuss how strong a character is at a specific point, that's fine. We shouldn't just pretend like x character's strength is consistent throughout every episode.

I agree with Doctor, it's easier to discuss when everyone on the same page. Right now we can't even have a concensusbon Krillins general level to discuss how awesome he is. The ambiguity and subsequent arguing distracts from the actual decent parts which is a shame.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Not really they had several options to do it right .

1) use the saiyan beyond God form. Simplistic and easy.
God ki on? Super white aura and SSB. No God ki, no aura and SSJ levels. Kids aren't that dumb. They understand Pokémon and Yugio.

2) keep SSG around, same effect as above.

A Saiyan with the power of SSG does not have god ki. Only the Super Saiyan God & Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan forms have god ki.

And yeah, they could have done it right, but they failed. Toyotaro almost got it right by using the rushed BoG & the skipped FnF arcs as an excuse to not show base with SSG power Goku & Vegeta, and then keep them at their regular base with SS/2/3/God along with SSBlue, but he didn't count on Goku Black, so the excuse "base with SSG never happened" no longer works. Maybe at least Toyotaro (who usually gets into the "trouble" to explain things) will explain it later in the manga if Goku and/or Vegeta ever come to a situation to use their base with SSG power states. Who knows, maybe Toei will do it.

[ZombieVito]

Kuririn's power in Super:
Personally, I believe that Kuririn (along with Tenshinhan & Yamcha) came close to the base Saiyans back when they all trained for the Artificial Humans (and not weaker than 2nd Form Freeza as many believe). This episode proves this, as it shows that Kuririn is weaker than base Goku & Gohan, but strong enough to overpower them with tricks, as Goku was forced to use Super Saiyan. The reason he used Super Saiyan Blue appears to be because he wanted to see what Kuririn would do against a powerful opponent so he went all out, but he was clearly holding back a lot when he used the Kamehameha.

Gohan's power in Super:
Gohan was clearly Ultimate Gohan in BoG arc, and clearly wasn't in FnF arc due to his lack of training. He expected Tagoma, who was still suppressing his power, to be at the same level as his in his base at full power, but it turned out that Tagoma was stronger than Piccolo, and Ginyu showed Tagoma's full power was even greater than that. Gohan tried to draw out his Ultimate power against Ginyu-Tagoma, but was unable to do so, which is why he went Super Saiyan to easily overpower him. He briefly started training with Piccolo after that, but soon stopped once again. Gohan seems to be currently at the same level he was in Boo arc before he became Ultimate except he can't use Super Saiyan 2 & rage boosts, but will soon become Ultimate Gohan once again.

Goku's power in Super:
In BoG, it looks like he is still at around the same level as he was in Boo arc. After he became a Super Saiyan God & absorbed its power, his base & Super Saiyan forms became about as strong as Super Saiyan God, and through further training with Whis his Super Saiyan form became Super Saiyan Blue, since Super Saiyan Blue is described as the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. After even more training with Vegeta inside the Room of Spirit and Time, they learned how to control the power of SSG, so they didn't use it in the tournament against Universe 6 (which is why their SS form is golden & not blue), but they obviously used it in the incident against Copy-Vegeta, as base Copy-Vegeta (who is exactly as strong as Vegeta) was much stronger that SS3 Gotenks, and base Goku was equal with him. He also didn't use the power of SSG at any point in the Future Trunks arc, but Goku Black was using the power of SSG which is why he was so strong in his base form. Yes, the two base theory is a thing so get over it already. Seems like the two base theory really is a thing, or everything falls apart. Besides, Super Saiyan Blue by its definition always confirmed it (and every time we see Goku, Vegeta, Copy-Vegeta, and Goku Black being super-powerful in their base forms, the only transformation they use is Super Saiyan Blue/Rosé... coincidence?).


So, the mortals so far that have reached the level of gods (Hakaishin & Angels, the Kamis, Kaios, and Kaioshins are all weak flies to them) are these:

Universe 6
Hit

Universe 7
Base with SSG power/Super Saiyan Blue Vegetto
Super Saiyan God/Base with SSG power/Super Saiyan Blue Goku
Base with SSG power/Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta
Super Saiyan Rage Trunks
Final Form/Golden Freeza

Universe 10
Merged Zamasu
Base with SSG power/Super Saiyan Rosé Goku Black

Universe 11
Jiren
Toppo


Goku & Vegeta in ther regular base, SS, SS2, and SS3 forms are a little stronger than they were in Boo arc, and everyone else (Gohan, Piccolo, base/SS/SS2 Future Trunks, Kuririn, Cabba, Frost, Present/Future Zamasu, etc) all fall somewhere between them, but they are nowhere near SSG level.


This last episode made things very clear, and it's been a long time since I took the anime seriously as far as battle powers are concerned. Now my faith to the anime is finally restored.

Excellent post.

So you think base Goku and Vegeta are just moderately stronger than their Boo arc self's without the power of Super Saiyan God? What do you make of Future Trunks battle with Super Saiyan Kid Trunks? Maybe Future Trunks is still getting Zenkai's so he became way stronger than Goku and Vegeta on equal forms? Maybe the kids aren't as strong as we thought.

Also, should't Future Zamasu also be god tier?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So you think base Goku and Vegeta are just moderately stronger than their Boo arc self's without the power of Super Saiyan God?

Yep.

What do you make of Future Trunks battle with Super Saiyan Kid Trunks? Maybe Future Trunks is still getting Zenkai's so he became way stronger than Goku and Vegeta on equal forms? Maybe the kids aren't as strong as we thought.

I believe Trunks got a rage boost in episode 57 (which is why the aura got huge with red sparks for a moment), but other than that his base/SS/SS2 forms are close to Goku's & Vegeta's base/SS/SS2 forms (and his SSRage form is his version of SSBlue). As for his fight with kid Trunks, it happened off-screen, and by the time we last saw them Future Trunks had already stopped fighting, so I guess he transformed off-screen.

Also, should't Future Zamasu also be god tier?

The whole point of Black was that he is supposed to be the strongest Zamasu at all points, and he wasn't god tier in the beginning of the arc, so I believe Future Zamasu was doing so good against SSB Goku because of his immortality, because Goku wasn't going all out against him since he could sense how weaker he was, and because (out-of-universe) Toei sometimes make close fights even when the gap is huge.

[ZombieVito]

I suppose it does make sense for Black to be stronger since the beginning. Do you think Future Zamasu is stronger than the present one?

Didn't Future Trunks said when attacking SSJ3 Goku that he was going to use his full power? That would mean he pushed Goku while suppressed. That plus his training with Vegeta and powering up by rage on episode 57 should make base F.Trunks > SSJ kid Trunks possible me thinks.