Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #1 Thread: "Broly"

[prince212]

I'm gonna tweet this to geekdom, see if he'll break it down like all those other backwards articles.

Need backup ?

What does this even mean? Is this a shallow attempt to insult my credibility just because I'm not making a video myself? Are you THAT petty?

Ohhh , I didn’t mean insult you or something like that .
Come on , waiting for that geekdon video bro

[SaiyanGod117]

More that the nature of DB's power structure is inherently anti-narrative, and criticizing the series for breaking from that to make a more interesting or engaging battle is completely detrimental to the series' storytelling. I really want them to overhaul the massively-linear scale entirely, both to provide more unique encounters, and to hopefully get all the naysayers who want the series to function only on magical number boosts and predictability to leave the fandom in frustration.

I'm not following, DB's power structure is similar in structure to other battle shounen or seinen series, aside from its strict rules that didn't allow for any wiggle room in a battle even when characters were no more than twice as strong as one another. Whereas, in other series even when the gap in the strength is noticeable amongst combatants, there is still a chance for weaker one to squeeze out a win or least become a challenge through the use craftiness and abilities. I've always wanted the same thing, but characters gaining unfathomable amounts through some cliche like rage or high potential in a lazily written way just shows a lack of imagination on the writers part and undermines Goku and Vegeta's training. Or jobbing to make another character look cooler is just bad writing.

[Shaddy]

Ohhh , I didn’t mean insult you or something like that .
Come on , waiting for that geekdon video bro

Again, the facetious attitude is really not making you look good here.

I'm not following, DB's power structure is similar in structure to other battle shounen or seinen series, aside from its strict rules that didn't allow for any wiggle room in a battle even when characters were no more than twice as strong as one another.

That's exactly the problem, and it sucks in those series too. Dragon Ball's issue is that everyone fights by the same rules, and thus if anyone is better than anyone else, there is never any chance of a fight being exciting or surprising. One Piece, JoJo and the like work because all of their characters have completely different power sets and thus you can never be quite certain how a fight will turn out, because it's based in the understanding of one's own unique ability and the tenacity of it's user. In Dragon Ball, anyone who's weaker than their target is basically fucked because they all work under the same variety-suppressing scale.

Whereas, in other series even when the gap in the strength is noticeable amongst combatants, there is still a chance for weaker one to squeeze out a win or least become a challenge through the use craftiness and abilities. I've always wanted the same thing, but characters gaining unfathomable amounts through some cliche like rage or high potential in a lazily written way just shows a lack of imagination on the writers part and undermines Goku and Vegeta's training. Or jobbing to make another character look cooler is just bad writing.

And it's the fault of power levels for that, because it contains what a "fight" can be into specifically the style of fast movement and energy attacks we've had for a while now. Power levels, and narrative escalation exist ONLY for the means of ensuring the viewers that the stakes are as high as can be, and that what you're watching is a better version of what you already saw, because there's no other way to tell that Jiren is stronger than Freeza.

That's why I'm saying it needs to break out of the idea of "strength" being a quantifyable value, numbered or tiered, for the series fights to be very interesting. It's why I'm complaining about arguments over power level inconsistencies, because a story where Goku goes blue every fight and wins by sneezing on his opponent is the technically "correct and consistent" power scale, but it's not fun at all.

[foxfang4]

Does the movie take place in the same day? (From the moment we see Goku/Vegeta fighting)

[Shaddy]

We're not sure how much time passes between them leaving the island and heading to the arctic, but yeah probably.

[SaiyanGod117]

That's exactly the problem, and it sucks in those series too. Dragon Ball's issue is that everyone fights by the same rules, and thus if anyone is better than anyone else, there is never any chance of a fight being exciting or surprising. One Piece, JoJo and the like work because all of their characters have completely different power sets and thus you can never be quite certain how a fight will turn out, because it's based in the understanding of one's own unique ability and the tenacity of it's user.

One Piece and Jojo aren't the only series where tactics and ability shine through as there's Naruto, Hunter x Hunter, MHA, Tokyo Ghoul, etc. In fact, the same concept Ki gets inspiration from inspires Hunter's nen system and Naruto's charka network (two series where those two qualities shine the most) which is Eastern Philosophy. If anything Ki in Dragon Ball is just upgraded version, as it can do all the things Charka and Nen can but with no visible limits, we've already seen glimpses of this with Goku Black making a makeshift blade out of Ki or Fused Zamasu making a whole another entity that's able to shoot lighting. Even earlier in DB, Tien was able to clone himself and grow arms out of his back, so there's nothing inherently wrong with Ki or any of its power structure because there are tons of creative possibilities for Ki's use in battle other than blast and flight. However, it's all limited by the writers, just look at Hunter x Hunter while I think Toriyama is a good writer there is no way he would have fleshed out the Nen System as Togashi has.

In Dragon Ball, anyone who's weaker than their target is basically fucked because they all work under the same variety-suppressing scale.

Because the writers make it so, I'm okay with breaking the rule of the weaker character being utterly no match or always losing against the stronger character. On the other hand, there needs to be boundaries or point where no matter how skilled or crafty someone may be, in the face of overwhelming power they should lose regardless, unless under special circumstances. Nor, should a character get half-assed or BS power boost, just because it makes the fight a little more interesting as it just muddies up the writing, hollows out the fight, and it becomes a reoccurring theme.

And it's the fault of power levels for that, because it contains what a "fight" can be into specifically the style of fast movement and energy attacks we've had for a while now. Power levels, and narrative escalation exist ONLY for the means of ensuring the viewers that the stakes are as high as can be, and that what you're watching is a better version of what you already saw, because there's no other way to tell that Jiren is stronger than Freeza.

I agree with you about the narrative escalation, till this day I still think it was a bad decision to make Goku strong enough to blow up the universe with his first steps into godhood. Toei obviously wasn't thinking on that one, and now I believe the characters are becoming too powerful, too quick, Gogeta and Broly broke the fabric of reality, as well as, several planes of dimensions. And I don't want DB to devolve into Saint Seiya or Gurren Lagann where there is no room for martial arts or knowledge of the battle, but again depends on the writers.

That's why I'm saying it needs to break out of the idea of "strength" being a quantifyable value, numbered

I agree.

or tiered, for the series fights to be very interesting.

Well, there are tiers to everything, so it needs tiers.

It's why I'm complaining about arguments over power level inconsistencies because a story where Goku goes blue every fight and wins by sneezing on his opponent is the technically "correct and consistent" power scale, but it's not fun at all.

As I have said, I have no problem with some wiggle room but underserved powerups such as Trunks's Rage boost, Ikari form, Genki Dama Boost, Caulifa achieving SSJ2 right after SSJ1, and Gohan being SSB level with a day of training is insulting and garbage. Also, seeing Goku struggle against his opponents who he should one shot like this:



Is very frustrating.

[Shaddy]

But those "powerups" shouldn't even need to happen; whether you think they're done better or worse doesn't change the fact that they're playing to a broken system that was only made in the short-term to lighten Toris creative workload, and is the long-term cause for all of these characters being left behind. A setting so toxic to it's characters that Gohan needs to be bullshitted up to Super Buu's level is one that the series should move away from. Super ignoring traditionally-defined power scaling is an attempt to rectify this, and I disagree with criticizing it for making the attempt, regardless of whether you liked it.

[SaiyanGod117]

But those "powerups" shouldn't even need to happen; whether you think they're done better or worse doesn't change the fact that they're playing to a broken system that was only made in the short-term to lighten Tori"s creative workload. A setting so toxic to it's characters that Gohan needs to be bullshitted up to Super Buu's level is one that the series should move away from.

But bullshitting exponentially times more for the reward of a less onesided fight exasperates the problem even more and dampens the story. It's relative main characters get stronger; weaker characters are going to need a more significant boost, that's will be continuous cycle of inconsistent writing. Moreover, a lot of these power-ups are at fault of the writers, due to being lazily written, not explained, or inconsequential rather than the faults of the DB power structure. Case in point, your Gohan example or the second half of the Buu arc in general. Likewise, the system isn't broken it just needs some adjusting.

[Shaddy]

But bullshitting exponentially times more for the reward of a less onesided fight exasperates the problem even more and dampens the story.

I disagree; the further we move away from it the better. The biggest mistake is not going so far as to change the rules entirely instead of this weird half-step.

It's relative main characters get stronger; weaker characters are going to need a more significant boost, that's will be continuous cycle of inconsistent writing.

Yes, which is why the system itself needs a complete upheaval.

Moreover, a lot of these power-ups are at fault of the writers, due to being lazily written, not explained, or inconsequential rather than the faults of the DB power structure. Case in point, your Gohan example or the second half of the Buu arc in general. Likewise, the system isn't broken it just needs some adjusting.

No, because it's not about whether it's "lazily written". Doing it well doesn't mean having to do it stops being a problem in the first place. You can have characters get better at things without that being contained to one single repetitive fighting style. This goes back as far as the Red Ribbon army saga. Just because Karin's "You have to be strong enough to get the water" training was more developed doesn't mean it was anything but a character arbitrarily having their vague "strength" increased without anything about the fighting style or technique changed. It never should have been like this in the first place, and just because changing it makes it not internally consistent doesn't mean it shouldn't happen.

[SaiyanGod117]

Everything else checks out fine, other than battle power being too much of a deciding factor in a fight; and a lack of abilities and techniques in battle. I don't see the need for a complete upheaval you're talking about, and disregarding power scaling would make the fights too erratic and undermine several elements in the story. Overall, nothing good comes from it, power scaling in a fighting series like DB absolutely matters in the context of the writing and story since that's what it mainly revolves around. Even with its strict rule play to fights and linear scaling (which I would like adjusted), it isn't impossible to make an entertaining and fair fight while still keeping it in the sense of believability. And it's not like these are laws of physics, everything is extremely malleable in a fictional story.

[Shaddy]

Everything else checks out fine, other than battle power being too much of a deciding factor in a fight;

Any is too much. If it's unreliable at all then there's no point in quantifying it.

disregarding power scaling would make the fights too erratic and undermine several elements in the story.

Yes. Badly written parts of the story. Things that would be good to get rid of. I don't know what you think "erratic" means here, but power levels being followed in-universe serves no reason than to make the story less interesting.

Overall, nothing good comes from it, power scaling in a fighting series like DB absolutely matters in the context of the writing and story since that's what it mainly revolves around.

And surprise, the overall nature of Dragon Ball's writing has felt off for a very long time because it's stuck with a system that constantly works against good storytelling.

Even with its strict rule play to fights and linear scaling (which I would like adjusted), it isn't impossible to make an entertaining and fair fight while still keeping it in the sense of believability.

And I disagree. Every Z fight is functionally exactly the same because it's so stuck in this idea of objectively-quantifiable "strength". It doesn't make a difference, because what we see is exactly the same. Same exploding mountains, same characters getting punched through the ground. The only difference is we're told that it's the "strongest material in the multiverse" or whatever. People get on Super's ass for changing things while also berating Dragon Ball for leaving characters behind. A meaningless powerup (note: most powerups in this series are meaningless) is the literal only way for them to have their cake and eat it, and I would rather cut out the middleman and just make every character work within their own rules and powersets.

And it's not like these are laws of physics, everything is extremely malleable in a fictional story.

Not according to most of the people involved in these arguments. That's my whole issue.

[SaiyanGod117]

Well, some things we're just not going to agree on, but we're on the same page for other stuff. So, nice talk.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Back on topic, I'm liking Broly has his own unique means of powering up.

If you count the Toei additions, that makes all the main Saiyans we've gotten to know having something unique: you have Goku pushing himself via Kaioken and Ultra Instinct, Vegeta going down the path of Evolution, Gohan is improving his Ultimate form, and Future Trunks had SSRage asnd the Genkidama Sword.

Now Broly has his own unique power-up, a path to refine all on his own.

[ironfist2020]

So everyone ignoring that false super Saiyan broly is stronger then ssj god red goku

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So everyone ignoring that false super Saiyan broly is stronger then ssj god red goku

First of all, it's Ikari Broly or Great Ape-infused Broly, not False Super Saiyan.

Second, there's a thread dedicated to power-scaling discussion already so that people don't clog up these threads with excessive strength arguments and disagreements.

Third, what about it? I'm fine with it.

[fugativeredeye]

i saw the movie in theaters yesterday. absolutely loved it, in my opinion it was the best of the 3 new movies they have released in recent years, higly recommend it if you havent seen it yet

[majinwarman]

The bullying stance is just The fandom having some fun don’t take it seriously

The homophobia comes from this “wonderful” joke of a review .

https://rogersmovienation.com/2019/01/1 ... per-broly/

Well, great to see such cultured people reviewing Dragon Ball.

If someone can't work out that Vegeta is uncomfortable doing a dance because he has his whole 'pride' image then they aren't familiar with the work or totally looking to stir the pot

I’m kinda down with these reviews and just going to ignore them for now on.

[Miracles]

Ajay claims you can already pre order the DBS Broly movie on DVD!

https://twitter.com/i/topics/news/e-839 ... fsrc=email

[Melkaniator]

Beerus didn't go to the future but he still helped uncover who Black was, killed Zamasu and ignored the multiple trips to the future which are supposedly transgressions. And in the Freeza arc, Whis turned back time and let Goku try again.

As if the dragon balls weren't enough of an issue with playing it safe, now they have all bases covered.

Even SDBH anime searched for a reason to stop Beerus & Whis from helping, DBS: Broly didn't even tried.

The story is coherent, the presentation is not. It tells you one thing, but presents another.

It loses it's focus once the fight starts.

It's a back and forth between two perspectives that never settles on one or the other, or uses that conflict to create tension.

DB loves killing tension.

It doesn't matter what the dialogue says if the presentation directly contradicts it.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why I said DBS has "irrelevant dialogue" on my signature.

[Zelvin]

So everyone ignoring that false super Saiyan broly is stronger then ssj god red goku

It's Ikari. And either way, it doesn't really matter. SSG is just another transformation with a higher multiplier than the earlier SSJ forms. Toppo before using his Hakai Form was strong enough to compete with SSB, so why is it an issue for Ikari Broly? It's not an issue. Broly's base level and growth potential is just that massive. There can be any number of reasons for them, however those reasons don't really matter that much. If Broly's base level is stronger than anything below them using SSG, then that is an indication that just one transformation for Broly would overshadow theirs. The proof of that is the movie itself.