TheMikado wrote:The problem is this actually hurts the 2 base theory, base Goku shouldn't be strong enough to even be fat Buu levels according to the two base theory. Now we have three different approximations for Goku. Buu arc base Goku, Buu level base Goku, stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks base Goku.
Why not? Goku was stronger than SS3 Gotenks and he says Boo is stronger and faster now. We have two bases: Boo arc base and SS3 Gotenks+ (I just put him at ultimate Gohan). This means that this Boo is SS3 Gotenks+ too, probably Gotenks Boo level.
Now you realize Boo jumped a few tiers in strength in 2 hours and you also realize that Gohan Boo could have done 10 push-ups and become stronger than SS3 Vegetto.
Lord Beerus wrote:Base Goku got his ass kicked by Skinny Boo and Goku didn't transform at all...
Can we accept the two base theory now?
Also, SSB trading blows with 17 is gonna make the internet explode, I can already tell Personally, I don't mind it, if they give a proper explanation. I just know they won't. Via normal training methods, I could have seen him getting up to SS2 and that was already a push, but SSB is unrealistic.
To be fair, we have no idea how much gains Androids make when they train. All we know is that they can get stronger through conventional training methods. For all we know, Android 17 and 18 could make/could have made Golden Freeza level gains. It's possible. The concept of an Android training has never been explored before. So it's not like it's breaking any established lore or "head-canon". They can literally do whatever the hell they want at this stage with the battle power of Android 17 and Android 18 .
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Lord Beerus wrote:Base Goku got his ass kicked by Skinny Boo and Goku didn't transform at all...
Can we accept the two base theory now?
Also, SSB trading blows with 17 is gonna make the internet explode, I can already tell Personally, I don't mind it, if they give a proper explanation. I just know they won't. Via normal training methods, I could have seen him getting up to SS2 and that was already a push, but SSB is unrealistic.
To be fair, we have no idea how much gains Androids make when they train. All we know is that they can get stronger through conventional training methods. For all we know, Android 17 and 18 could make/could have made Golden Freeza level gains. It's possible. The concept of an Android training has never been explored before. So it's not like it's breaking any established lore or "head-canon". They literally do whatever the hell they want at this stage.
Considering Golden Freeza level of gains is something stupid to begin with, I don't like the idea. But at least it took #17 13 years to get this strong, not 4 months, so it's an easier pill to swallow. It doesn't break any lore, but it's just unrealistic to think #17 wouldn't have helped out against Boo if he was this strong (even if he wasn't, he was at least around Boo arc level strength, since only 4-5 years have passed since then and he has 7 years of training beforehand).
And people wonder why I care less and less about everyone reaching God level. It's already no longer a special thing no more. They shit on that realm.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Doctor. wrote:
Can we accept the two base theory now?
Also, SSB trading blows with 17 is gonna make the internet explode, I can already tell Personally, I don't mind it, if they give a proper explanation. I just know they won't. Via normal training methods, I could have seen him getting up to SS2 and that was already a push, but SSB is unrealistic.
To be fair, we have no idea how much gains Androids make when they train. All we know is that they can get stronger through conventional training methods. For all we know, Android 17 and 18 could make/could have made Golden Freeza level gains. It's possible. The concept of an Android training has never been explored before. So it's not like it's breaking any established lore or "head-canon". They literally do whatever the hell they want at this stage.
Considering Golden Freeza level of gains is something stupid to begin with, I don't like the idea. But at least it took #17 13 years to get this strong, not 4 months, so it's an easier pill to swallow. It doesn't break any lore, but it's just unrealistic to think #17 wouldn't have helped out against Boo if he was this strong (even if he wasn't, he was at least around Boo arc level strength, since only 4-5 years have passed since then and he has 7 years of training beforehand).
I don't think he became SSJB level right off the bat. I think he just did some light training over the the last decade or so and his power just unexpectedly creeped to an insane heights. It's a possibility.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
I don't particularly think there's a two Base theory in the same way others do. I go with the Retcon theory instead.
I think there was the Super Saiyan God level Base Goku and then now there's the more ambiguous Base Goku that was apparently weaker than Piccolo during the Universe 6 saga and due to all his gains following that he's now probably closest to Fat Buu in power, whether he was stronger or weaker I can't be bothered to over think right now but somewhere around that level.
dbzfan7 wrote:And people wonder why I care less and less about everyone reaching God level. It's already no longer a special thing no more. They shit on that realm.
Yeah it's being used too often now that it's lost it's touch. It was used playing Baseball, against Arale, Krillin, Android 17 and Bergamo. From the end of the Future Trunks saga it should have been used for that fight with Hit and against Toppo and that's it.
Hopefully he really does come out with some new transformation. It'll end up the same way eventually but it could do with appearing in this Tournament.
Bullza wrote:I don't particularly think there's a two Base theory in the same way others do. I go with the Retcon theory instead.
I think there was the Super Saiyan God level Base Goku and then now there's the more ambiguous Base Goku that was apparently weaker than Piccolo during the Universe 6 saga and due to all his gains following that he's now probably closest to Fat Buu in power, whether he was stronger or weaker I can't be bothered to over think right now but somewhere around that level.
dbzfan7 wrote:And people wonder why I care less and less about everyone reaching God level. It's already no longer a special thing no more. They shit on that realm.
Yeah it's being used too often now that it's lost it's touch. It was used playing Baseball, against Arale, Krillin, Android 17 and Bergamo. From the end of the Future Trunks saga it should have been used for that fight with Hit and against Toppo and that's it.
Hopefully he really does come out with some new transformation. It'll end up the same way eventually but it could do with appearing in this Tournament.
This is why I don't get the complaints of "No only Goku and Vegeta should be special", when everyone else keeps on treating the god realm as nothing special to achieve or reach....so it's lost it's luster and grandiose.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Bullza wrote:I don't particularly think there's a two Base theory in the same way others do. I go with the Retcon theory instead.
I think there was the Super Saiyan God level Base Goku and then now there's the more ambiguous Base Goku that was apparently weaker than Piccolo during the Universe 6 saga and due to all his gains following that he's now probably closest to Fat Buu in power, whether he was stronger or weaker I can't be bothered to over think right now but somewhere around that level.
dbzfan7 wrote:And people wonder why I care less and less about everyone reaching God level. It's already no longer a special thing no more. They shit on that realm.
Yeah it's being used too often now that it's lost it's touch. It was used playing Baseball, against Arale, Krillin, Android 17 and Bergamo. From the end of the Future Trunks saga it should have been used for that fight with Hit and against Toppo and that's it.
Hopefully he really does come out with some new transformation. It'll end up the same way eventually but it could do with appearing in this Tournament.
Nothing implied goku gotten weaker in base especially where he's stronger than ssj3 gotenks.
Lord Beerus wrote:
To be fair, we have no idea how much gains Androids make when they train. All we know is that they can get stronger through conventional training methods. For all we know, Android 17 and 18 could make/could have made Golden Freeza level gains. It's possible. The concept of an Android training has never been explored before. So it's not like it's breaking any established lore or "head-canon". They literally do whatever the hell they want at this stage.
Considering Golden Freeza level of gains is something stupid to begin with, I don't like the idea. But at least it took #17 13 years to get this strong, not 4 months, so it's an easier pill to swallow. It doesn't break any lore, but it's just unrealistic to think #17 wouldn't have helped out against Boo if he was this strong (even if he wasn't, he was at least around Boo arc level strength, since only 4-5 years have passed since then and he has 7 years of training beforehand).
I don't think he became SSJB level right off the bat. I think he just did some light training over the the last decade or so and his power just unexpectedly creeped to an insane heights. It's a possibility.
The thing is at least Frieza literally trained non stop to achieve his revenge, whereas if 17 has a park ranging job it seems like he wouldn't have much time to train plus less motivation. Goku whilst farming wasn't getting many gains.
Doctor. wrote:
Considering Golden Freeza level of gains is something stupid to begin with, I don't like the idea. But at least it took #17 13 years to get this strong, not 4 months, so it's an easier pill to swallow. It doesn't break any lore, but it's just unrealistic to think #17 wouldn't have helped out against Boo if he was this strong (even if he wasn't, he was at least around Boo arc level strength, since only 4-5 years have passed since then and he has 7 years of training beforehand).
I don't think he became SSJB level right off the bat. I think he just did some light training over the the last decade or so and his power just unexpectedly creeped to an insane heights. It's a possibility.
The thing is at least Frieza literally trained non stop to achieve his revenge, whereas if 17 has a park ranging job it seems like he wouldn't have much time to train plus less motivation. Goku whilst farming wasn't getting many gains.
Hey, there's nothing that says you can't train for fun.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Interesting fight. I'd put Fit Buu around or exactly as strong as Super Buu (genetic memory, maybe? Would be cool).
Also, Gotenks being heavily - and silently - nerfed and/or the retconned super powerful base forms disappearing are all but an impossibility. At least, I doubt Toei or Toriyama's ideas would bode well with Buu magically reaching the Gods realm within mere hours.
But anyway, there's still the fact that all these episodes appear pretty vague in relation to the effort Goku is putting into the fights. He clearly shouldn't have had any trouble with Krillin, nor with #17, as SSB.
Damn, this episode told us nothing. For all we now Boo was screwing around and only went serious the moment he surprised Goku.
I'm starting to think however that DBZGTKOSH was right and the normal bases were as strong as their Boo arc self's, granted a lot stronger thanks to their training with Whis and the RoSaT but no where near Super Saiyan 1/2 tier.
I remember making a joke of how Cell could probably be the strongest, or Boo by Freeza logic, and everyone kept on going "No no no Freeza is like a rare prodigy and only he can do it." Well look where we are now.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
ZombieVito wrote:Damn, this episode told us nothing. For all we now Boo was screwing around and only went serious the moment he surprised Goku.
I'm starting to think however that DBZGTKOSH was right and the normal bases were as strong as their Boo arc self's, granted a lot stronger thanks to their training with Whis and the RoSaT but no where near Super Saiyan 1/2 tier.
Yeah...no
Theres no two base theory crap goku mentions buu gotten a lot stronger than before and fought on par with him h and nothings screams base goku being strong as was in the buu saga that stupid and you know it.
Here's my theory on Buu,we Know Buu loss a lot of power of his evil self right,I'm going to use a 1 out of 10 scale,the original majin Buu was a ten, meanwhile he loss his power is a 6,so maybe skinny Buu have the same power of his evil self from being a 10 again
in a nutshell, majin Buu:10,Mr buu:6, skinny Buu:10
Last edited by The gr on Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Lord Frieza wrote:I've said it somewhere else but I'll say it here to.
I just want to point out that even in base, Krillin didn't even scratch Goku while Buu roughed him up a bit here.
Krillin actually did scratch Goku he cut him with the Kienzan when bringing them back round.
Did he? Not saying your wrong but all I saw was the line of light, no actual scratch on his skin. So I though it was a near miss.
I assumed they did they to signify it caught him, I know they didn't show him scratched up but I read the scene as him getting a graze from it as none of the other's shown a trail left by them.
Also I didn't notice that Buu left any marks on Goku though from his punching, TBF Krillin didn't try to punch Goku up close. Though I have no doubt Buu is stronger than Krillin
Last edited by Krillin1994 on Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Personally, I don't mind it, if they give a proper explanation. I just know they won't. Via normal training methods, I could have seen him getting up to SS2 and that was already a push, but SSB is unrealistic.
