RandomGuy96 wrote:
That... doesn't really make sense. I don't even know why you brought it up. He was clearly surprised that they got SS3, and he advised AGAINST them training in the ROSAT. Your statement is only coherent if Metamorans are Saiyans, and even then, it still wouldn't be right. He never mentioned needing to master fusion, advised against using the ROSAT, and again, was surprised when they hit SS3.
I'm still struggling to figure out the meaning. So Goku somehow knew that they could get a new transformation only he knew about... and he knows that mastering the technique that allows them to merge will just automatically grant them this ability, because he just does even... so his plan is to advise against using the ROSAT and the fake surprise when they actually get SS3? It doesn't even feel like you're trying to make sense, at this point.
His surprise, that the kids could turn ssj3 is completely irrelevant to the subject matter.
You're completely missing my point.
I'm not suggeting that Goku knew that the boys would unlock ssj3, where that suggestion came from, I have no idea.
I'm saying that goku never fused, and even stated that the only ones he saw fuse were the Metamorese, who he said were far weaker than him.
So the one and only frame of reference Goku has, are people who've mastered fusion, and what that mastery unlocks.
Even if Goku had the ability to predict what fusion would produce on a larger scale, there's no way Goku could have predicted what an unmasterd/imperfect fusion would produce.
He even chimes on the importance of mastering and perfecting fusion on several occasions.
"Piccolo, you'll have to take over, make sure they know it perfectly by tomorrow."
"If he perfect the technique he's working on now, there' no way he could lose."
So Goku's statements about a theoretical Gotenks are only based on his reference (the Metamorese) and the gains they made from PERFECT fusion.
We see Gotenks fail in fusion a few times, but don't they fuse perfectly on the 3rd attempt?
Well, that's up for debate.
The first question that arises is "If they fused perfectly, shouldn't Goku's statement come into place and result in Base gotenks beating Buu?"
We clearly see that he does not. Thus reconfirming the argument that Goku could only predict based on the assumption of total gains made from a PERFECT fusion.
Base gotenks does not represent the total gains because of 2 reasons
1) that would require them turning ssj1.
2) That would require them having perfected fusion.
But do the boys perform the fusion any better, post rosta, than they did pre?
Well there's Piccolo's astonishment, at the boys' performance.
"GOOD! At last, the boys fusion went PERFECTLY!"
This is after sensing the boys gains, and being able to infer that they weren't enough to beat buu, without being ssj when fusing. But after seeing that the fusion went perfectly he says
"He really is different! He's really powered up a lot! We might stand a chance."
All things considered, I think it's obvious that the boys had not perfected fusion prior to the Rosta training. This means that anything we saw prior to rosta does not apply to Goku's statements.
However, Goku's statement still lingers, perfecting fusion means that they must be stronger than him.
BUT, what form is stronger? Base? ssj1?ssj2?ssj3?
The boys had only ssj1. So some jump the gun and assume that THAT must be the power goku was imagining.
But that's a groundless assumption.
Goku may not have imagined that the boys would gain the power they did, via new transformations, he may have imagined that a power similar to what's exhibited in ssj3 would be present in their ssj1 form. The point is, ssj2 and 3 are a direct gift and gain made solely from and only available to the boys, via fusion.
In short, it's entirely plausible that Goku's prediction was correct, but that it applies to ssj3 Gotenks.
Let me try and preemptively strike a potentially bad argument.
"But goku couldn't have known that they'd gain ssj2/3!"
It doesn't matter, all that matters is that Goku had a relative idea, what power they'd gain. HOW they'd gain it is irrelevant."
He was shocked, because he didn't imagine fusion would be so intense. Which, in itself shows how ignorant goku was on the matter, but doesn't suggest that Goku believed the power gotenks exhibited as an ssj1, was the power he foretold, or the gains he saw present in the Metamorese.
It's not proof, as Bio-Broly is not a new villain, so the new villain rule wouldn't apply to him.
No, it was not inane. Dropped what? The idea that simply saying he said that isn't an argument? Because he did, and it isn't.
Yes, it was.
You dropped your dispute with my statement "The argument that each villain, has to be stronger than his/her predecessor, is invalid."
The argument exists, and yes, there's a statement that is used, by people, to try and support it.
HOWEVER, I'm saying that the statement is being misconstrued to argue Bio Broly must be stronger than non-bio broly.
Bio broly is, in fact, a new Villain. He's a clone of broly, but he had the potential to be stronger than broly, and was chosen, by the creators, to not be, despite the statement, that there was a pressure to make each proceeding villain stronger.
I understand YOUR argument, that bio broly is "the same" as broly.
But:
1) That's simply false.
and
2) Even if it weren't, it's still a case, in which the pressure(to make each proceeding baddy movie boss stronger) was felt and ignored. Proving that the pressure was ignore-able.
