Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[LowRyder2005]

"You've got that power" seems to be implying he got stronger. There is means to compare the fighters in the exhibition match.

1. We know Goku and Gohan are on par in equal forms due to the sparing match in the previous episode

2. Bergamo is stated more than once to be the strongest Trio De Danger Bro

3. Base Goku fights about evenly with Bergamo before he absorbs Goku's power

4. Base Gohan before being poisoned seems to have the advantage on Lavender

5. Boo isn't much stronger than Base Goku in this episode so he couldn't have been stronger during the exhibition match so even with drugs Basil was likely the weakest brother or not much stronger than Lavender

"You've got that power" could merely be referring to the power Buu already has/ had. But if we wanted to advocate for one particular position, an argument could be made that it would've been simpler for Goku to say "faster and stronger". After watching the fight with the subs, I think that Buu is - if anything - marginally stronger and much faster, and that he's definitely above Base Goku. That's mostly a gut feeling, though.

I don't really understand the logic behind any of the other assertions contributing to the logical chain which would presumably lead to point 5, to be honest. Mostly because I don't find any blatant contradiction arising from a framework in which Buu is equal or stronger than Super Saiyan Goku and Gohan (unless you're trying to make everything fit around with the Gotenks vs. Vegeta tidbit; which is fine, but it still has some added preconditions regardless of what people may say, like "Gotenks did not get any weaker", "Goku can't have two bases of different power" among other things).

[TBMx]

Goku transformed not just once but 4 times. he ascended from ssj1, to ssj2, ssj3, ssjg and finally ssjb. goku did a ritual, a ritual that requires 5 other saiyans that made him reach a god tier level. not just that, he also trained with whis. a deity which even the god of destruction is powerless against. are you telling me that in spite of all that battles. in spite of all those transformations, rituals and training with a god. its alright for 17 to reach that kind of power just by training on a park? sscrew all those rituals. fuck training with gods. just a simple push ups on a park would turn you into a god.

[ZombieVito]

Goku transformed not just once but 4 times. he ascended from ssj1, to ssj2, ssj3, ssjg and finally ssjb. goku did a ritual, a ritual that requires 5 other saiyans that made him reach a god tier level. not just that, he also trained with whis. a deity which even the god of destruction is powerless against. are you telling me that in spite of all that battles. in spite of all those transformations, rituals and training with a god. its alright for 17 to reach that kind of power just by training on a park? sscrew all those rituals. fuck training with gods. just a simple push ups on a park would turn you into a god.

Better to wait for the episode to air.

[julianix]

How can anyone confirm anything one way or another watching Super?

Skinny Buu vs Goku doesn't prove anything one way or another. It wasn't a real fight just like the previous episode.

[LowRyder2005]

I feel like Goku's doing this all on purpose, in universe I'll just see it as Goku wants to put everyone in good gears and boost up their confidence, I feel like he lost to Boo on purpose, he coulda went SSJ to get out of Boo's hold, but didnt even bother and just went with it, think about Goku winning against Boo, that woulda pissed Boo. The same reason why he went SSJ and SSJB against Krillin, to boost up his confidence that he can stand up to SSJB so Goku let his wave pull back for Krillin. At least as my head canon this works, he could be doing the same thing against 17 NEP, we see SSJB Goku's face really pulling an effort with that punch, while 17's face literally says "I am not amused"

I myself think this may be partially true, at the very least.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Base goku and vegeta >ssj3 gotenks
Thats a fact no bs two theory crap
Slim buu could at least give goku trouble given the buu train nontop and i don't see he wouldn't get stronger.
No point using multipliers given super doen't give two shit about that.
Its not hard people your making harder trying to push this retarded two base theory.

This post is a prime example of an unacceptable manner in which to have discussions with your fellow forum members. If you want to converse and debate in the community, keep it respectful and shonen to avoid the warnings, that lead to bans, which restrict access to the entire website.

[Simere]

What does keeping it shonen mean? No cursing?

[HeroR]

So how strong do you have slim buu?

Hard to say. Fat Buu is at the very least 1.5x stronger than Majin Vegeta imo. Since we only know that Fat Buu lost the majority (meaning 51% or more) of his power to Evil Buu and he was already at least 4x stronger than Majin Vegeta, scaling from Super Saiyan 3 Goku. So, given the time frame, I say maybe over 2x stronger than Majin Vegeta.

All my guess, of course.

[The gr]

It begins, credit to seththeprogrammer

[HeroR]

Buu didn't even hurt Goku and going by the two base theory, Goku's base form is only as strong as it was during Battle of Gods. Which means weaker than final form Freeza.

Not quiite. The two base theory was that there was a Base Goku who was as strong as Super Saiyan God having g absorbed it's power and then there was a Base Goku with such power.

He doesn't specifically have to be as strong as he was in the Buu saga. He can be at any level just so long as it isn't God level.

If his Base strength increased in relation to his Blue strength then he shouldn't be at his Buu saga level anyway.

But they don't say when this level is used. The only real benchmark would be base form Goku vs. Frost and then Hit. If Goku was using this super base form against Hit, why didn't anyone note it? If Goku had a base form that stomped true form Freeza, yet used a weaker base against Frost, then the human cast should have said something. Instead, they were surprised that Frost did so well.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

What does keeping it shonen mean? No cursing?

We're all fans of the same franchise, and we come together from across the globe to discuss it as part of the Kazenshuu community. Don't be rude, don't be mean, don't be be hateful, etc. Keep it respectful and friendly, so we can foster good discussion that reflects well on the site and its members.

It begins,[spoiler][/spoiler] credit to seththeprogrammer

This is not a worthwhile post. Kanzenshuu is not a social media site. If you have something you want to discuss, please put it into actual words and contribute to the discussion.

[TheMikado]

People really need to stop with this 2 base theory nonsense. The insane reaching that comes with every episode supposedly "proving" it's existence is absolutely laughable.

Base Goku>SSJ3 Gotenks. Skinny Boo is somewhere around Goku. He doesn't need to be as strong as Goku due to ringing him out otherwise Krillin is as strong as Ultimate Gohan. He could be stronger than Base Goku though since if anyone had the upper hand, it was Boo.

We have something like Skinny Boo>Bergamo>=Base Goku=>Ultimate Gohan>SSJ3 Gotenks. As far as Android 17 is concerned, I doubt that he's as strong as SSB Goku, though it really doesn't matter if he is. Promotional material seems to hype him up by putting him alongside SSB Goku and Vegeta.

So where in your list does that put SSJ Gohan who sparred evenly with Goku, or Krillin, or Piccolo who decently fought an opponent that both Vegeta and Goku needed to go SSJ against vs Frost.

[Berserker1921]

So how strong do you have slim buu?

Hard to say. Fat Buu is at the very least 1.5x stronger than Majin Vegeta imo. Since we only know that Fat Buu lost the majority (meaning 51% or more) of his power to Evil Buu and he was already at least 4x stronger than Majin Vegeta, scaling from Super Saiyan 3 Goku. So, given the time frame, I say maybe over 2x stronger than Majin Vegeta.

All my guess, of course.

I think he is prob buu Han Level. Yes goku is holding back. But even in his base. With some god ki he has to be near Vegito level. Remember Frieza buffed up in 4 months to God levels. Buu trained in a three hours must have jumped to mid tier ssj3 at least. If he trained for a year. He be stronger then Beerus. If he doesn't slack off for the next 37 hrs he will be at least as strong as God goku.

[The gr]

What does keeping it shonen mean? No cursing?

We're all fans of the same franchise, and we come together from across the globe to discuss it as part of the Kazenshuu community. Don't be rude, don't be mean, don't be be hateful, etc. Keep it respectful and friendly, so we can foster good discussion that reflects well on the site and its members.

It begins,[spoiler][/spoiler] credit to seththeprogrammer

This is not a worthwhile post. Kanzenshuu is not a social media site. If you have something you want to discuss, please put it into actual words and contribute to the discussion.

I apologized for fluff posting, what I wanted say, let's not jump into conclusions yet, let's wait to see how it turns

[Marlowe89]

Skinny Buu definitely had the upper hand against Goku for a moment there and even harmed him at the end of their sparring match, which leads me to conclude that base Goku is somewhere around Buu's general power level.

The upside is I think we can confidently say that base Goku would have an advantage against fat Buu at least. It'll be interesting to see where 17 stands in all of this.

[ZombieVito]

Skinny Buu definitely had the upper hand against Goku for a moment there and even harmed him at the end of their sparring match, which leads me to conclude that base Goku is somewhere around Buu's general power level.

The upside is I think we can confidently say that base Goku would have an advantage against fat Buu at least. It'll be interesting to see where 17 stands in all of this.

How many hours did Boo train? 2?

I seriously doubt he even doubled his power. That would confirmed Saiyan beyond God since this base Goku would be way weaker than Gotenks.

I liked the theory someone posted that Boo just regained the power he lost to Pure Evil Boo when they split.

[Berserker1921]

Skinny Buu definitely had the upper hand against Goku for a moment there and even harmed him at the end of their sparring match, which leads me to conclude that base Goku is somewhere around Buu's general power level.

The upside is I think we can confidently say that base Goku would have an advantage against fat Buu at least. It'll be interesting to see where 17 stands in all of this.

How many hours did Boo train? 2?

I seriously doubt he even doubled his power. That would confirmed Saiyan beyond God since this base Goku would be way weaker than Gotenks.

I liked the theory someone posted that Boo just regained the power he lost to Pure Evil Boo when they split.

That's nuts? I mean Frieza went from namaek level threat to godly level in 4 months. Black went from ssj3 level to beyond ssjblue level in a couple hours after fighting goku. Or Hit becoming as strong as goku and ssjblue 10x kaioken goku as they were fighting. So it's not in the realm of the impossible for buu to rise up to buuhan level in 3 hrs. I mean if buu trained for a year. He would probably be near Whis level.

[Bullza]

But they don't say when this level is used.

Well that's because it's not really a thing is it. That's why again, I feel like there's behind the scenes mix up which led to Goku being nerfed as opposed to a complicated in universe explanation.

Toei portrayed Goku and Vegeta as having this God level Base form a couple of times in the Resurrection F saga and then a couple of times in the Monaka arc.

Realistically they were also at that same intended level during the Universe 6 saga too. Whether it makes sense with the story or not (it doesn't really) that is the likely answer.

I would just guess that any retcon or nerfing of his power happened during the Future Trunks saga. Between Super Saiyan God appearing in the manga around the time when this saga started airing and seeing this Goku vs Trunks fight in the outline they may have realised they weren't on the right track.

Because ever since it seems more and more apparent he's only God level now when he's Blue.

[emperior]

Episode 85 shit all over my Power Levels list for Super

About Goku, it seems like he was never SSG level in his base. Goku and Vegeta probably got something like 100 times stronger due to training with Whis (Goku recognized Vegeta as being on a completely different level when he first went to Beerus' place) that was probably because of their mastery with ki (basically SSG power, though they don't use God Ki while in their base)
I guess Freezer's Final Form wouldn't be a huge improvement over his 1st form as it was back in DBZ. I also start to believe that Super Saiyan Blue isn't that big of a power-up anymore as Super Saiyan God was in Battle of Gods. This doesn't mean SSG > SSB, but multipliers could work like that.

BoG:
Goku - 1
SSJ - 50
SSJ2 - 100
SSJ4 - 400
SSG - 40'000

Post BoG (SSG powers absorbed)
Goku - 100
SSJ - 5000
SSJ2 - 10'000
SSJ3 - 40'000
SSG - 40'000
SSB - 50'000

Basically once Goku and Vegeta absorb SSG powers the ritual wouldn't be as effective anymore, and Goku's SSJ3 is as strong as SSG. As of RoF, Goku and Vegeta base would be as strong as they were as SSJ2 during Battle of Gods. Vegeta can easily beat a SSJ1 tier opponent like Tagoma.
Later they get stronger through the battle with Freezer, the 3 years of training in the RoSaT and the battles with U6 fighters and they are above SSJ3 Gotenks and on par with Fat Buu. Future Trunks would be a little stronger in his base than Goku and Vegeta due to his battles with Black, would also explain why he wasn't that far away from SSB and why he could handle his present counterpart in base. And there would be no two-base theory this way.

Tell me what you guys think.

[ekrolo2]

At this point I'm curious as to what madness it could take to close the thread, Goku being weaker than Namek Freeza still?