Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
We don't need Piccolo to tell us that Boo's power increased. Apparently, it increases outside of the RoSaT, when he fought SS3 Gotenks. Inside the RoSaT, yes. But outside, the fight itself shows it on its own.
No, it didn't. It just showed him having a bit of trouble with SS Gotenks and being on the losing end of the fight against SS3 Gotenks. Not once did Piccolo or anyone else hint at a power increase, even when it would have made a lot of sense, both in-universe and out.
How do all these imply that imply that Gotenks gets so small multipliers for... some reason?
They all indicate that Super Buu isn't many times stronger than Pure Buu. They also indicate that the genki of the Earthlings was relevant next to Gohan's genki, and Gohan was stronger than SS3 Gotenks.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Senator Armstrong (MGR) vs all of Baba's warriors, at the same time
Senator Armstrong (MGR) vs Tambourine
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Obd wiki has him at town level and mach 2000 so the weakest fighter that would beat him is BoZ Piccolo. 23rd Budokai Piccolo is island level but he's way to slow- either at mach 89 or 440 if you take Popo's statement of needing to be faster than lightning to be able to beat him, as true.
Last edited by xmysticgohanx on Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Canon is Jaco, Dragon Ball except for EoZ, Dragon Ball Super anime and manga (both are separate canons)
Kai >>> Z
Current Roshi/Kulilin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SSJ3 Gotenks
xmysticgohanx wrote:Obd wiki has him at town level and mach 2000. Weakest fighter that would beat him is BoZ Piccolo
I think King Piccolo could beat him. But I also think he could easily crush Tao and anyone in his tier, i.e. everyone I listed weaker than Tambourine. Tao's most impressive feat puts him in the 6 ton range, while Raiden was crushed by Armstrong and yet is easily in the tens of thousands of tons range. Even when you consider that Tao's best feat was a casual one, he could easily have been using one tenth of his strength to do it, and he still would be a thousand times weaker than Raiden. He was also f'd up by a single concussion grenade, and got his ass beat by someone that could still be hurt by sniper rifles bullets (though not really damaged). Tambourine is the one I'm curious about, as he has a battle power beyond 100, which according to the Daizenshuu is "battleship main gun" level.
Piccolo's speed doesn't really matter. BOZ Piccolo can bust a moon. KP's strength is compared to a small nuclear bomb. Both are far beyond Armstrong. He can't hurt them or survive a single hit from either one.
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
I knew you were going to reply before my edit lol. 23rd Budokai Piccolo might have a chance but if speed was equal King Piccolo would win. BTW how strong is a battleship's main gun?
Canon is Jaco, Dragon Ball except for EoZ, Dragon Ball Super anime and manga (both are separate canons)
Kai >>> Z
Current Roshi/Kulilin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SSJ3 Gotenks
Zombie wrote:In any case he is stronger than Cell and he was SSJ2 tier in Z. Rildo was also stated to be in a tier similar to Buu.
GT did something right and buffed Piccolo.
Well yeah, but everyone got buffed by a huge degree in GT. I don't think there's anything right in unmentioned, illogical buffs happening across the board.
But Kental said Piccolo didn't get stronger from Z to GT. He clearly did.
xmysticgohanx wrote:I knew you were going to reply before my edit lol. 23rd Budokai Piccolo might have a chance but if speed was equal King Piccolo would win. BTW how strong is a battleship's main gun?
Really strong? An Iowa-class battleship's main gun shoots a 16 inch, 1,900-2,700 pound (depending on type) explosive shell at 2,700 feet per second.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
RandomGuy96 wrote: No, it didn't. It just showed him having a bit of trouble with SS Gotenks and being on the losing end of the fight against SS3 Gotenks. Not once did Piccolo or anyone else hint at a power increase, even when it would have made a lot of sense, both in-universe and out.
If Boo has trouble with both SS & SS3 Gotenks, then that would mean that he wasn't fighting seriously against the first one.
They all indicate that Super Buu isn't many times stronger than Pure Buu.
Then that would mean that Pure Boo is stronger than Super Saiyan Gotenks.
They also indicate that the genki of the Earthlings was relevant next to Gohan's genki, and Gohan was stronger than SS3 Gotenks.
And how does that make SS Gotenks slightly weaker than SS3 Gotenks?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
If Boo has trouble with both SS & SS3 Gotenks, then that would mean that he wasn't fighting seriously against the first one.
No, it would mean that the first one isn't many times weaker than the second one. Unless, of course, you can find a statement supporting this invisible, gigantic power-up.
Then that would mean that Pure Boo is stronger than Super Saiyan Gotenks.
Not necessarily.
And how does that make SS Gotenks slightly weaker than SS3 Gotenks?
Gohan is stronger than SS3 Gotenks, and his genki wasn't quite enough to kill Pure Buu on its own. After they added the genki of the humans, it was enough.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
xmysticgohanx wrote:I knew you were going to reply before my edit lol. 23rd Budokai Piccolo might have a chance but if speed was equal King Piccolo would win. BTW how strong is a battleship's main gun?
Really strong? An Iowa-class battleship's main gun shoots a 16 inch, 1,900-2,700 pound (depending on type) explosive shell at 2,700 feet per second.
Calced it with 2,700 lb at 2,500 fp/s (what wikipedia said) it came out to 104.898206829039 tons of force; so he's multi city block level (1 city block requires 11 tons). City level is way higher @5,800 tons. Tambourine has no chance.
Tao was calced at 5.613 tons so Tao is under 100 battle power (if bp was linear his bp would be 21 lol) and btw where does it say Tambourine is higher than first arc Oozaru Goku?
Edit: 21 not 9
Last edited by xmysticgohanx on Sun Oct 12, 2014 6:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Canon is Jaco, Dragon Ball except for EoZ, Dragon Ball Super anime and manga (both are separate canons)
Kai >>> Z
Current Roshi/Kulilin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SSJ3 Gotenks
Calced it with 2,700 lb at 2,500 fp/s (what wikipedia said) it came out to 104.898206829039 tons of force; so he's multi city block level (1 city block requires 11 tons). City level is way higher @5,800 tons. Tambourine has no chance.
Is that counting the explosive itself, though?
Where is Armstrong shown to be city level? Also, keep in mind that Tambourine is above 100, just below 180, and 180 is smack dab in the middle between "battleship's main gun" and "small nuclear bomb".
Tao was calced at 5.613 tons so Tao is under 100 battle power (if bp was linear his bp would be 9 lol) and btw where does it say Tambourine is higher than first arc Oozaru Goku?
It's not said anywhere, but he pretty much has to be given that he easily defeated Krillin, who should be around 100 himself by this point, and wasn't one-shotted by 180 Goku. Goku actually seems surprised that his initial 3-hit combo didn't kill Tambourine. Also note that Piccolo Daimao with a battle power of 260 had the destructive power of one of his blasts compared to a small nuclear bomb. So that's 15 kilotons or so of TNT equivalent (on a low end).
Yeah, I never thought Armstrong would have any trouble with Tao Paipai (the guy was critically injured by a concussion grenade, after all), I just threw him in there as a warm-up. Cyborg Tao Paipai might be a different story, though.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Is that counting the explosive itself, though?
Oh right! I'm pretty sure that can't be calced without a video or something.
Where is Armstrong shown to be city level?
No idea but that's what the wiki says
Yeah, I never thought Armstrong would have any trouble with Tao Paipai (the guy was critically injured by a concussion grenade, after all), I just threw him in there as a warm-up. Cyborg Tao Paipai might be a different story, though.
Well Tao was pretty injured.
Canon is Jaco, Dragon Ball except for EoZ, Dragon Ball Super anime and manga (both are separate canons)
Kai >>> Z
Current Roshi/Kulilin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SSJ3 Gotenks
That's probably going by him blowing up you-know-what with one punch. But is that really a town-level destructive feat?
Well Tao was pretty injured.
Not really. Just prior, he was strong enough to hurt Goku.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
RandomGuy96 wrote:That's probably going by him blowing up you-know-what with one punch. But is that really a town-level destructive feat?
It might be scaled from a feat some weaker person did but I'll ask.
Not really. Just prior, he was strong enough to hurt Goku.
Maybe Tao is some weird case where he has less durability then than his destructive force, like Burter being faster than what he should be, presumably Jeice having a higher destructive capacity, and Kid Goku having abnormal dura for a pl of 10?
Canon is Jaco, Dragon Ball except for EoZ, Dragon Ball Super anime and manga (both are separate canons)
Kai >>> Z
Current Roshi/Kulilin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SSJ3 Gotenks
RandomGuy96 wrote:That's probably going by him blowing up you-know-what with one punch. But is that really a town-level destructive feat?
It might be scaled from a feat some weaker person did but I'll ask.
Not really. Just prior, he was strong enough to hurt Goku.
Maybe Tao is some weird case where he has less durability then than his destructive force, like Burter being faster than what he should be, presumably Jeice having a higher destructive capacity, and Kid Goku having abnormal dura for a pl of 10?
Or maybe he's just not strong enough to tank a concussion grenade.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Canon is Jaco, Dragon Ball except for EoZ, Dragon Ball Super anime and manga (both are separate canons)
Kai >>> Z
Current Roshi/Kulilin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SSJ3 Gotenks
Not durability ones. I mean, the Goku he beat up could still be killed by one shotgun blast, and the Goku who beat him up could still be hurt by sniper rifle bullets.
Those calculations seem questionable. But okay. Going by those Armstrong's power (per punch?) would be equivalent to 574 tons (in what? TNT equivalent?). Anyone know how strong a battleship's main gun is...?
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Canon is Jaco, Dragon Ball except for EoZ, Dragon Ball Super anime and manga (both are separate canons)
Kai >>> Z
Current Roshi/Kulilin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SSJ3 Gotenks
I hardly take fan calcs or the OBD seriously. It's just fan stuff. Feats that the universe backs up with statements or showings is all that matters to me.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
RandomGuy96 wrote:No, it would mean that the first one isn't many times weaker than the second one.
That is, if we didn't have the statement about SS3 being SS2 x4, which means that SS3 = SS x8.
Unless, of course, you can find a statement supporting this invisible, gigantic power-up.
We've seen invinsible, gigantic power-ups before. Freeza went from ~3% to 50%, and then to 70%, and didn't even raise a little wind, or showed any aura.
And while I don't have a statement that states that Boo powered-up, I do have a fight with him fighting an opponent x8 stronger than the previous one.
Not necessarily.
SS Gotenks is x8 weaker than SS3 Gotenks, so yes.
Gohan is stronger than SS3 Gotenks, and his genki wasn't quite enough to kill Pure Buu on its own. After they added the genki of the humans, it was enough.
And how does that make SS Gotenks slightly weaker than SS3 Gotenks?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
