The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Piccolo Daimao]

Don't want to mini-mod, but isn't it best that we just lay this "Piccolo post-Kaio training" debate to rest? I think we've gone around in circles over this before, and all it will do is just derail this thread. The common arguments have been already been lain out and countered back-and-forth, being "there's no way Piccolo could get that much power in 6 days" and "it was a plot device, and Nail's comment implies that he's stronger than him". Is there really that much more to say?

[Pantalones]

I don't see why this, or any other kind of fusion, would be affected by someone's injuries.

Well, the Fusion Dance requires that the stronger of the two lower their power enough so that they'd be equal than the weaker person... and being injured lowers your power.

I'm guessing any sort of lowered power, whether it was voluntary or not, would affect the results of fusion. I'm not sure how much Namekian fusion would be affected, but the Fusion Dance (and presumably Potara fusion) would definitely end up weaker if one or both of the people who wanted to fuse were half-dead at the time the fusion happened, compared to the same fusion with both people at full power.

[hleV]

It's not like Nail didn't have power at that time, he was too injuried to make use of it.

[Fox666]

Well, the Fusion Dance requires that the stronger of the two lower their power enough so that they'd be equal than the weaker person...

I don't remember it ever being stated that it affect the fusion. Besides, I don't see why lowering your Ki would do so, I mean, you are just supressing your Ki afterall.

[Michsi]

Tenshinhan and co. were way weaker than Goku when they started training with Kami

Goku never trained with Kami.

Not to mention that the humans trained as a group, which we've been told several times is more effective.

Fine, they trained at Kami's place. Same idea. For all we know it was Mr. Popo that handled their training, same as with Goku. Also Goku didn't train alone, he trained with Mr. Popo too, who is supposedly several time stronger than him.

[Rocketman]

For all we know it was Mr. Popo that handled their training, same as with Goku.

We see Kami overseeing their training personally.

[Michsi]

So? Kami said he left most of Goku's training to Mr. Popo , which means he could have also played a hand in it to some extent. But the point was that Tenshinhan went from 250 to 1800 in less than one year. I seriously doubt he showed Ten and co. some sort of super training method that he kept from Goku.

[Saiga]

So? Kami said he left most of Goku's training to Mr. Popo , which means he could have also played a hand in it to some extent. But the point was that Tenshinhan went from 250 to 1800 in less than one year. I seriously doubt he showed Ten and co. some sort of super training method that he kept from Goku.

They had sparring partners at around the same level as them, and Kaboom already pointed out how much more effective that was. Just look at how much Vegeta and Trunks improved in 1 year together in the RoSaT.

[Michsi]

They had sparring partners at around the same level as them, and Kaboom already pointed out how much more effective that was. Just look at how much Vegeta and Trunks improved in 1 year together in the RoSaT.

Again I feel that people are either missing my point or splitting hairs. Goku had Mister Popo who was much stronher than him and who also served as a sparing partner, since this is the most effective way to train, especially if the gut is a lot stronger than you.

But back to the initial point several post ago, grand power-up happen. If Tenshinha could get over 7 times stronger with the same type of training Goku did, then why isn't the same thing possible with Piccolo after King Kai, a stronger deity than Kami, with the thousand years worth a training on earth idea?

[Fox666]

Probably because the increasing strength of Tenshinhan and the others was actually bring to question during the story, while Piccolo power-up was mostly ignored and notably irrelevant for the story.

[Rocketman]

If Tenshinha could get over 7 times stronger with the same type of training Goku did

This is what we're disputing, though. Tien didn't get the same type of training, he got better training so he got stronger.

[Michsi]

Probably because the increasing strength of Tenshinhan and the others was actually bring to question during the story,

When?

while Piccolo power-up was mostly ignored and notably irrelevant for the story.

Ignored? Irrelevant?
Yes, he didn't improve 7 times his strength because he proably was to busy training a completely unexperienced 5 year old teaching him from scratch. Different situation, different circumstances.

And what does this have to do with my point? Are you trying to tell me that Piccolo can't do what Tenshinhan, Yamcha and Krillin could?

This is what we're disputing, though. Tenshinhan didn't get the same type of training, he got better training so he got stronger.

The question though here is why would Kami and Mr. Popo give Tenshinhan and co a better type of training that he didn't give Goku when preparing him to deal with Piccolo.
What was different? The goal. The enemy. Way stronger. So they had to work a lot harder and push themselves. Same as with the enemies on namek. Stronger goal. Bigger powers.They basically asked to train harder than Goku did.

[Fox666]

while Piccolo power-up was mostly ignored and notably irrelevant for the story.

Ignored? Irrelevant?
Yes, he didn't improve 7 times his strength because he proably was to busy training a completely unexperienced 5 year old teaching him from scratch. Different situation, different circumstances.

I am talking about Piccolo training with Kaio.

[Rocketman]

Same as with the enemies on namek. Stronger goal. Bigger powers.They basically asked to train harder than Goku did.

I don't doubt that. I doubt that Piccolo could get stronger faster than a harder-training Goku.

[Michsi]

I am talking about Piccolo training with Kaio.

Nail praised Piccolo's power as something amazing. And he is the one with the 42,000. How is that irrelevant when he was a 3000 something, barely above an average namekian, in his last fight. So no, it was not ignored.

I don't doubt that. I doubt that Piccolo could get stronger faster than a harder-training Goku.

Why not? Tenshinhan and co did it too. I have yet to see something that tells me Kami had them go through some super special secret training program that for some reason he didn't want Goku to have. And even if he did, the same could apply to Kaio when training the others.

Note, and I never said he could get stronger than Goku or something, just that there is a possibility for him to have been stronger than Nail and even if not, stronger than 12,000.

[Rocketman]

Why not? Tenshinhan and co did it too.

No they didn't. Goku went from 416 to 8000+ in the same time as Piccolo's 408 to 3000 and Tien's 250 to 1800.

[Michsi]

No they didn't. Goku went from 416 to 8000+ in the same time as Piccolo's 408 to 3000 and Tenshinhan's 250 to 1800.

Well duh, I was comparing the same training and/or masters they trained with. It was more than obvious that what Goku went through was a million times harder and more beneficial than what the others had. I think I mentioned that King Kai training = 1000 years worth earth training statement about three times now.

Again:
Goku with Kami from 260 to 400 something in three years
Tenshinhan with Kami from 250 to 1800 in less than one year.

Goku with King Kai 416 to 8000 in 6 months
Piccolo and co. with King Kai ->?

[Rocketman]

Well duh, I was comparing the same training and/or masters they trained with.

Well, I'm not. In order for Piccolo to impress Nail in the way you mean, he'd have to get stronger faster than Goku is in the same amount of time while Goku is doing harder training.

[Piccolo Daimao]

It doesn't really matter, since Piccolo's power is only even important in the story until after he merges with Nail.

[Michsi]

Well, I'm not. In order for Piccolo to impress Nail in the way you mean, he'd have to get stronger faster than Goku is in the same amount of time while Goku is doing harder training.

I repeat, I never said he got stronger than Goku.
And yes, I do believe it is possible for other non saiyans to get stronger than Goku in a shorter amount of time. Tenshinhan and the others proved that they could and Piccolo more than probably, can do so too. He was his equal for years, this isn't hard to believe at all.

It doesn't really matter, since Piccolo's power is only even important in the story until after he merges with Nail.

Yes, I know that, but it is important for this hypothetical fight. Pretty much like every hypothetical fight in this thread.