Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[pacz360]

Why people have a problem with piccolo getting stronger?

People don't have a problem with him getting stronger, people would have a problem of him magically becoming stronger than Super Saiyan God just from a few months of training.

But no Piccolo obviously is not God Tier.

Going by the manga Super Saiyan Blue Goku, Vegeta and Hit were the only ones that were God Tier in that Tournament and that makes sense logically too.

Thats the manga i couldn't care less about that I'm talking about the anime here.
Whether or not base goku and vegeta being god level is debatable
However them being >>>most of the buu saga fighter considering base vegeta stomping ssj3 gotenks and goku in base matching him
Not to mention goku holding his own against a fired up beerus in a monka suit who wanted to show how strong monaka is and considering goku got two shotted with absolute ease by beerus and yet can at least holding his own against him to the point whis had to intervene makes it a point he's far stronger then he was at the start of bog.

[pacz360]

Anyway instead of talking about the base saiyans strength lets talk about sssjb
Ssjb level fighters
Jiren
Ssjb Goku
Ssjb Vegeta
Black
F.zamasu
Ikari trunks
Hit
Toppo
Golden frieza
Bergamo(damaged soak)
Android 17
Note this isn't ranked by who's the strongest just naming characters who are at this level.
Guys like gohan may be there depending how strong he'll get in his mystic form.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Why people have a problem with piccolo getting stronger?

People don't have a problem with him getting stronger, people would have a problem of him magically becoming stronger than Super Saiyan God just from a few months of training.

But no Piccolo obviously is not God Tier.

Going by the manga Super Saiyan Blue Goku, Vegeta and Hit were the only ones that were God Tier in that Tournament and that makes sense logically too.

The story so far has been implying this as well.

Luckily, RoF is unclear enough to allow for Goku and Vegeta to have risen to high Buu Saga levels in base form so that other characters aren't completely irrelevant, especially in a tournament setting whilst also making their power gains significant enough.

The best way to look at it is definitely that Goku and Vegeta are very strong, but not quite as strong as SSG, and only surpass that level of power with SSB.

[Bullza]

Thats the manga i couldn't care less about that I'm talking about the anime here.
Whether or not base goku and vegeta being god level is debatable
However them being >>>most of the buu saga fighter considering base vegeta stomping ssj3 gotenks and goku in base matching him
Not to mention goku holding his own against a fired up beerus in a monka suit who wanted to show how strong monaka is and considering goku got two shotted with absolute ease by beerus and yet can at least holding his own against him to the point whis had to intervene makes it a point he's far stronger then he was at the start of bog.

Which is still contradictory. He was God level in Base following the Beerus fight, not above SSJ3 Gotenks but say below Gotenks Buu or anything like that. He was just God level at the time.

And him stomping SSJ3 Gotenks and fighting Beerus in the costume are perfectly consistent with that.

Everything else not at all. It doesn't make sense for them to be at God level during the Universe 6 saga if Piccolo is above them. Whether you care about the manga or not they are clearly not intended to be God level.

In the Zen Exhibition it was implied Goku was only God level when Blue which again is contradictory when he was at that level in Base previously. Then you've got Trunks who can push him back, Gohan was evenly matched with him, Krillin forced him back whereas SSJ3 Gotenks couldn't, Buu "beat" him.

Then there's Zamasu saying Goku grew tens of times stronger turning Super Saiyan.

So if Base Goku is God level then Super Saiyan Goku is 50 times stronger than Super Saiyan God? Super Saiyan 3 Goku is 400 times stronger than Super Saiyan God? Then Super Saiyan Blue Goku is far stronger than that and then using Kaioken x10 he's well over 4,000 times as strong as Super Saiyan God?

Well no that's the make sense because that messes up the Battle of Gods saga. Beerus obviously was not thousands of times more powerful than Super Saiyan God Goku in that fight.

There has to have been some changes somewhere for some reason.

[pacz360]

Thats the manga i couldn't care less about that I'm talking about the anime here.
Whether or not base goku and vegeta being god level is debatable
However them being >>>most of the buu saga fighter considering base vegeta stomping ssj3 gotenks and goku in base matching him
Not to mention goku holding his own against a fired up beerus in a monka suit who wanted to show how strong monaka is and considering goku got two shotted with absolute ease by beerus and yet can at least holding his own against him to the point whis had to intervene makes it a point he's far stronger then he was at the start of bog.

Which is still contradictory. He was God level in Base following the Beerus fight, not above SSJ3 Gotenks but say below Gotenks Buu or anything like that. He was just God level at the time.

And him stomping SSJ3 Gotenks and fighting Beerus in the costume are perfectly consistent with that.

Everything else not at all. It doesn't make sense for them to be at God level during the Universe 6 saga if Piccolo is above them. Whether you care about the manga or not they are clearly not intended to be God level.

In the Zen Exhibition it was implied Goku was only God level when Blue which again is contradictory when he was at that level in Base previously. Then you've got Trunks who can push him back, Gohan was evenly matched with him, Krillin forced him back whereas SSJ3 Gotenks couldn't, Buu "beat" him.

Then there's Zamasu saying Goku grew tens of times stronger turning Super Saiyan.

So if Base Goku is God level then Super Saiyan Goku is 50 times stronger than Super Saiyan God? Super Saiyan 3 Goku is 400 times stronger than Super Saiyan God? Then Super Saiyan Blue Goku is far stronger than that and then using Kaioken x10 he's well over 4,000 times as strong as Super Saiyan God?

Well no that's the make sense because that messes up the Battle of Gods saga. Beerus obviously was not thousands of times more powerful than Super Saiyan God Goku in that fight.

There has to have been some changes somewhere for some reason.

Buu went for a ring out not to mention didn't seem to goku didn't seemed to give it his all in there spar
Krillin was going for ringout fucking gohan in base smack him away like a fly during there sparring match up not to mention
Goku only transforming to avoid a ring out never due to krillin power considering none of krillin attack did shit to him
With gohan the jury's out on him goku was more or less impressed with gohan during the spar and again after his fight with lavender and never comment on how weak gohan is like he did with his fight with dabura.
Depends on how future episodes with piccolo to see where he truly stands
And again i don't care for the manga given in the manga he never absorbed ssj god into his base form and never even saw rof version in the super manga.
theres no recton stuff or any of that at all in super.

[Bullza]

Buu went for a ring out not to mention didn't seem to goku didn't seemed to give it his all in there spar
Krillin was going for ringout fucking gohan in base smack him away like a fly during there sparring match up not to mention
Goku only transforming to avoid a ring out never due to krillin power considering none of krillin attack did shit to him

Well it doesn't really matter if he gave it his all or not. Base Goku and Vegeta were that ridiculously far above everyone else that they could just stand there, crossed arms, not even bothering to defend themselves and Gotenks hit him and blasted at him and he just didn't move.

SSJ3 Gotenks was that weak in comparison to him that Vegeta called him a mosquito.

And yet when Krillin blasted at Goku not only did Goku need to put up his guard for that, it also forced him back. Buu was able to knock him back. Gohan and Trunks can force him back even as a Super Saiyan.

So it's no excuse that he only transformed so he didn't get ringed out when it was already shown that characters realms above Krillin can't even make him budge. Goku should never even be in a scenario where he could be ringed out in the first place.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Buu went for a ring out not to mention didn't seem to goku didn't seemed to give it his all in there spar
Krillin was going for ringout fucking gohan in base smack him away like a fly during there sparring match up not to mention
Goku only transforming to avoid a ring out never due to krillin power considering none of krillin attack did shit to him

Well it doesn't really matter if he gave it his all or not. Base Goku and Vegeta were that ridiculously far above everyone else that they could just stand there, crossed arms, not even bothering to defend themselves and Gotenks hit him and blasted at him and he just didn't move.

SSJ3 Gotenks was that weak in comparison to him that Vegeta called him a mosquito.

And yet when Krillin blasted at Goku not only did Goku need to put up his guard for that, it also forced him back. Buu was able to knock him back. Gohan and Trunks can force him back even as a Super Saiyan.

So it's no excuse that he only transformed so he didn't get ringed out when it was already shown that characters realms above Krillin can't even make him budge. Goku should never even be in a scenario where he could be ringed out in the first place.

Misses the context and intent, as usual. The old rules have been made more flexible to allow for other other characters to have a chance, such as taking someone off-guard being much more effective, and the very setup of the Tournament of Power itself has been adapted to take advantage of this fact.

It's a martial arts fight where unpredictability is the name of the game, and martial arts skill can overcome power differences depending on the circumstances. In a straight-up power fight where Goku goes all-out, Krillin wouldn't stand a chance.

However, this isn't a straight-up power fight, and involves following the rules whilst also keeping in mind an opponent's own tricks and skills. For example, Krillin took Goku off-guard by faking the Taiyoken and got better results because of it, and kept him off his toes enough that Goku needed to quickly power up to prevent himself from being ringed out. A quick power-up like a SS transformation.

I understand that, based solely on prior material, this ought not to make sense. However, it's not unjustifiable by any means and allows for a much more entertaining fight than if we were so strict in analysis.

[Bullza]

Misses the context and intent, as usual. The old rules have been made more flexible to allow for other other characters to have a chance, such as taking someone off-guard being much more effective, and the very setup of the Tournament of Power itself has been adapted to take advantage of this fact.

Them changing the rules of a sudden still creates inconsistencies. Goku wasn't off guard, this isn't like when Piccolo kicked Frieza from out of nowhere.

Base Vegeta just stood there, he didn't have his guard up, he didn't need to because SSJ3 Gotenks was that pitifully weak in comparison that he couldn't do anything to him at all. Nothing Krillin should be able to do should have moved Goku and yet he did.

He wasn't off guard when Trunks was attacking him, he had his guard up but he was still being forced back even as a Super Saiyan 2.

I understand they're trying to make the fighters more evenly matched but it doesn't work with what the the series has established. It's something they're making a big deal of only now really. It's a good idea that's happened too late so it's just causing more confusion than anything.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I understand the misgivings regarding this change, but this sort of stuff WAS telegraphed earlier on, if not as obviously.

Goku and Sorbet's ring laser, Piccolo and Frost, etc.

Honestly, however, I get irritated when people don't take the intent at face value. This series started out as an adventurous martial arts series, and Super does a lot to try and bring back that feel, especially now.

The issue is that people think that such prior rules are set-in-stone and unchanging, that they hold water, but the whole point of this latest arc is that the old rules no longer apply in this new setup, that people need to forget the old way of thinking and adapt to an entirely different mindset, both in-universe and out-of-universe. I get that this doesn't jive with people's inconsistency radars, but I just wish people would understand that their prior preconceived notions are being dropped for the sake of entertainment.

[Simere]

I get that this doesn't jive with people's inconsistency radars, but I just wish people would understand that their prior preconceived notions are being dropped for the sake of entertainment.

Do you understand that it's not entertaining for some of us?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I get that this doesn't jive with people's inconsistency radars, but I just wish people would understand that their prior preconceived notions are being dropped for the sake of entertainment.

Do you understand that it's not entertaining for some of us?

I also understand that. I think it's bumf**k stupid to be as annoyed by it as people seem to be such that it can ruin other people's days by the complaints being so strong and numerous, but that's just personal preference.

If people had just complained about it but didn't make a big deal out of it and moved on to other aspects, we wouldn't be having such passionate debates over the topic of inconsistencies as we do nowadays.

===

To bring things back to powerscaling, however, what do people think is Jiren's power relation, generally speaking> Toppo could match a SSB, possible with Kaio-ken x2. Maybe equal to a Kaio-ken x10 SSB Goku? That also makes me wonder if x20 Kaio-ken SSB could match a God of Destruction.

[Helios518]

To bring things back to powerscaling, however, what do people think is Jiren's power relation, generally speaking> Toppo could match a SSB, possible with Kaio-ken x2. Maybe equal to a Kaio-ken x10 SSB Goku? That also makes me wonder if x20 Kaio-ken SSB could match a God of Destruction.

At this rate, nothing short of a brand new transformation (maybe ontop of fusion) would make Goku close or surpass a Hakaishin. If that doesn't do it then nothing will.

[Bullza]

I'm all for characters being useful, they should have just do it in a more believable way.

Krillin couldn't do squat to Perfect Cell, I know it was partly filler, I can't remember if it was in Kai but he was kicking him and Cell didn't take any notice. A Destructo Disc to the neck did nothing. One little kick and he was all but paralysed.

But Goku if we're to be believed is at the same level should be God level and yet he has to block and counter these attacks.

Now if Goku was at the same level he was at during the Buu saga that'd be fine. Same with him taking Gohans punch but it doesn't look like they are. It's too difficult to tell.

[TheMikado]

I'm all for characters being useful, they should have just do it in a more believable way.

Krillin couldn't do squat to Perfect Cell, I know it was partly filler, I can't remember if it was in Kai but he was kicking him and Cell didn't take any notice. A Destructo Disc to the neck did nothing. One little kick and he was all but paralysed.

But Goku if we're to be believed is at the same level should be God level and yet he has to block and counter these attacks.

Now if Goku was at the same level he was at during the Buu saga that'd be fine. Same with him taking Gohans punch but it doesn't look like they are. It's too difficult to tell.

The Perfect Cell vs Krillin was in the manga too. Encounters like that are canon.

[Bullza]

The Perfect Cell vs Krillin was in the manga too. Encounters like that are canon.

I know the fight was but I can't remember if the Destructo Disc to the neck was in the manga aswell or if that was just Included in the anime and if so was that part in Kai like some of the filler.

[TheMikado]

The Perfect Cell vs Krillin was in the manga too. Encounters like that are canon.

I know the fight was but I can't remember if the Destructo Disc to the neck was in the manga aswell or if that was just Included in the anime and if so was that part in Kai like some of the filler.

That part was filler but everything else was the same.

[DBZ Macky]

Yeah, tanking the Kienzan was definitely filler. I don't know if it was kept in Kai though.
In any case, when we're talking about a show like DBS, "filler" or "canon" shouldn't really matter

I find it interesting how RoF was the first to bring up the "off-guard" concept and then Dragon Ball Super followed suit.

It isn't hard to wave-off some of this "new" logic. Frost could really be very inept at using his final form and his stamina could really have dropped down to even less than his first form after the monumental beating he recieved from Goku. But that's only slightly implied, and there aren't direct comparisons made in the story.

I think it really is better that way in some aspects to make the story more unexpected and exciting, but they could at least give us some idea where the characters' current maximum power stands. Base Goku being stronger than SSG but just fucking around with other opponents isn't too hard to believe.

[Zamasu55]

I'm afraid of what we'll see tonight.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I'm afraid of what we'll see tonight.

I'm not, since I always temper my fears and expectations until the episode actually comes around.

[Triggered Vegeta]

I'm afraid of what we'll see tonight.

I can care less at this point, if anything Goku is the one overusing SSB... If it were Vegeta he wouldn't need to transform... Goku transforms for anyone, for the dumbest reasons as of lately. The only way I can see 17 being on Blue level, is if he's kinda like Super 17 from GT, where he can increase in strength from absorbing ki... If not, then they should at least explain how he got so strong.

I think these will be the last few moments of SSB, before being replaced... probably never see it again.. once they accend to the next level... maybe that's why they keep spamming Blue.