Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[pacz360]

There's not enough to imply that because both of them weren't really going all out. What we know at the very least is that Android 17 is waaaaaaayyyy stronger SSJ Goku. Everything after that is pretty guesswork because they both suppress their strength and we don't know by how much they do it.

Well thats true still 17 should be at least stronger ssj god given goku absorbed the god power in his ssj state back in bog.
Base stronger than ssj3 gotenks
Ssj=ssjgod stated by beerus.

SSJ = SSJG stopped being thing once the fight with Beerus in the BOG arc was over and Goku went to train with Whis.

When did it stop exactly even then goku ssj sure as hell much stronger than it was before and considering base can hold his own against a fired up beerus to the point whis felt the need intervine where before beerus two shotted goku like a fly should goku in his ssj forms god tier or being generous somewhere around ssj2 vegito

[pacz360]

#17 should be around golden frieza or ssb rof tier

Agreed while still inferior to goku goku admitted 17 was holding back

[Bullza]

Interesting still god tier to degree when even goku admits he wasn't going all out at least 17 is stronger than ssj god

It's way too early to say that. Krillin matched Super Saiyan Blue Goku, held his own with the Kamehameha and then even pushed it back but he's weaker than #18. Goku just significantly held back.

The exact same thing could have happened here and he held back significantly.

Goku probably wasn't holding back whilst as a Super Saiyan though so it might be safe to say that #17 holding back > Super Saiyan Goku. That would put him above the likes of Magetta, Super Saiyan Cabba, Fat Buu, Lavender, Basil, Bergamo, Piccolo, Frost etc. His upper limit is an unknown for now though.

I don't think Buu vs. Goku and #17 vs. Goku told us anything concrete about the true power of every person involved other. At most, they let us infer some vague guidelines; those guidelines being that #17, Super Saiyan Gohan and (most likely) Mr. Buu in both forms are above an untrasformed Goku.

It's still pretty vague because nobody really seems to be fighting seriously except for a couple.

I'd say Super Saiyan Goku because of the ease with which he dealt with Super Bergamo compared to how Fat Buu handled the weaker Super Basil that he was stronger as a Super Saiyan. Probably also superior to him in Base as well if he was able to keep up with the Slim Buu who was said to be much faster.

Super Saiyan Blue Goku > Android 17 > Super Saiyan Goku/Gohan > Goku/Gohan > Fat Buu

Slim Buu could be anywhere I suppose but what he showed was less impressive than #17 so far.

[The gr]

#17 should be around golden frieza or ssb rof tier

Agreed while still inferior to goku goku admitted 17 was holding back

Seems to be a good spot for him,he is still weaker than current ssb goku and Vegeta, rage Trunks and black

[Lord Beerus]

Well thats true still 17 should be at least stronger ssj god given goku absorbed the god power in his ssj state back in bog.
Base stronger than ssj3 gotenks
Ssj=ssjgod stated by beerus.

SSJ = SSJG stopped being thing once the fight with Beerus in the BOG arc was over and Goku went to train with Whis.

When did it stop exactly even then goku ssj sure as hell much stronger than it was before and considering base can hold his own against a fired up beerus to the point whis felt the need intervine where before beerus two shotted goku like a fly should goku in his ssj forms god tier or being generous somewhere around ssj2 vegito

SSJ = SSJG can't work because we've seen the SSJ Goku and Gohan are even in strength when they spar together. And we later see Gohan, despite the fact he was blinded, beat around Lavender as a SSJ, who's no stronger than Basil, a character who got his ass handed to him by a SSJ2 tier power character in Majin Boo.

[BlueBasilisk]

SSJ = SSJG can't work because we've seen the SSJ Goku and Gohan are even in strength when they spar together. And we later see Gohan, despite the fact he was blinded, beat around Lavender as a SSJ, who's no stronger than Basil, a character who got his ass handed to him by a SSJ2 tier power character in Majin Boo.

I think Goku's power level is just "as strong as he needs to be." It's been really muddy ever since they decided to bring back Super Saiyan in the U6 tournament.

[pacz360]

SSJ = SSJG stopped being thing once the fight with Beerus in the BOG arc was over and Goku went to train with Whis.

When did it stop exactly even then goku ssj sure as hell much stronger than it was before and considering base can hold his own against a fired up beerus to the point whis felt the need intervine where before beerus two shotted goku like a fly should goku in his ssj forms god tier or being generous somewhere around ssj2 vegito

SSJ = SSJG can't work because we've seen the SSJ Goku and Gohan are even in strength when they spar together. And we later see Gohan, despite the fact he was blinded, beat around Lavender as a SSJ, who's no stronger than Basil, a character who got his ass handed to him by a SSJ2 tier power character in Majin Boo.

We don't know how basil and lavender compare to each other so no
With gohan it depends on his episodes with piccolo to see where he really sitting at.
Goku never mentioned gohan being weak like he did back in the buu saga
Plus gohan trained 8 months with piccolo and trained again with him at the end of the black saga
So it truly depends on how his episodes with piccolo factor in it.

[LowRyder2005]

It's still pretty vague because nobody really seems to be fighting seriously except for a couple.

Agreed with this. Have to say I am partly happy about this, ironically. Given their track record, I don't know if I would entrust TOEI with the task of making everything fit within the current arc and in reference to past arcs (quite an inevitable pickle, with characters making a return to the fighting scene after years of inactivity and in-between a cataclism and another).
I mean, they had already made everything just a little too counter-intuitive for my tastes with the new characters and their corresponding feats.

[Lord Beerus]

When did it stop exactly even then goku ssj sure as hell much stronger than it was before and considering base can hold his own against a fired up beerus to the point whis felt the need intervine where before beerus two shotted goku like a fly should goku in his ssj forms god tier or being generous somewhere around ssj2 vegito

SSJ = SSJG can't work because we've seen the SSJ Goku and Gohan are even in strength when they spar together. And we later see Gohan, despite the fact he was blinded, beat around Lavender as a SSJ, who's no stronger than Basil, a character who got his ass handed to him by a SSJ2 tier power character in Majin Boo.

We don't know how basil and lavender compare to each other so no
With gohan it depends on his episodes with piccolo to see where he really sitting at.
Goku never mentioned gohan being weak like he did back in the buu saga
Plus gohan trained 8 months with piccolo and trained again with him at the end of the black saga
So it truly depends on how his episodes with piccolo factor in it.

If Lavender was as strong as Basil, he would not have gotten his ass handed to him as easily as he did by Gohan. A blinded Gohan, nonetheless. The only reason Lavander got any kind of advantage in the fight when Gohan was a SSJ was because the poison was severely affecting his strength.

[Bullza]

Super Saiyan Goku and then Base Goku during and following the fight with Beerus was as strong as Super Saiyan God due to that power running through his body.

That would seemingly not be true anymore because now he's only God level as a Super Saiyan Blue going by what was said at the Zen Exhibition.

Goku is about on par with Gohan who is not at his Ultimate level from the Buu saga and stronger but not ridiculously so more than Trunks was and he was unable to sense God Ki unlike Base Vegeta in the Resurrection F saga.

[Lord Beerus]

I think it's safe to say that Goku does not use God ki outside of SSJB at this stage. His base form just got quite a bit stronger. Like SSJ3 Gotenks tier the very most. But if we don't take "filler" into consideration, then his base form is certainly much stronger than ROF SSJ Gohan but I wouldn't place it all that much higher than Majin Boo (high end of SSJ2-tier).

[Yomi]

I get why people would say 17 is SSB level.
But I've seen way too many people saying that Krillin is also SSB level.
I just don't get what the thought process is for someone to come to that conclusion.
It's just baffling to me. "Power scaling shit, Krillin is stronger than SSB"

like really?

[Triggered Vegeta]

I'm not about to put Base -> SS3(Current) at Buu saga levels, forget that.. beyond ridiculous especially after all that training/Zenkais... like what Base Goku now is weaker than RoF Frieza? Hell no!

The Gohan/Krillin/Buu I'll take that as a spar.. Goku not showing his true power... Piccolo even says Gohan has a weak Fragile body.. this is the same Gohan who according to some people is on par with SS1 Goku... so according to what Piccolo said about Gohan... that'd mean Goku also has a weak Fragile body since he was supposedly = to SS1 Gohan.. which I highly disagree.

I also find it ridiculous how Goku bothered to transform for 17/Krillin & Gohan... but not Buu... I take it as Goku not being a bit serious and just messing around.

[Bullza]

I'm not about to put Base -> SS3(Current) at Buu saga levels, forget that.. beyond ridiculous especially after all that training/Zenkais... like what Base Goku now is weaker than RoF Frieza? Hell no!

But that was no ordinary Base Goku. He was said to have the power of Super Saiyan God and was much stronger than when he fought Beerus. All of his strength came from having that God power absorbed into him.

Well maybe he doesn't use all of that Godly power in his Base form anymore. Maybe he only uses it with Super Saiyan Blue. Which is why the Kai's said he was at the level of Gods only after he turned Blue and not before.

So without that power and where he is currently I wouldn't say they're at their Buu levels but he wouldn't appear to be nearly as strong.

If Super Saiyan Blue is him with the power of God transforming into Super Saiyan then ordinary Super Saiyan would just be him transforming without the power of a God.

I still think Base Goku against Frieza was stonger than anytime since then when he's used any of the original Super Saiyan forms. Like I said he wasn't that far off from Trunks and Trunks even as a Ultra SSJ2 should be weaker than Final Form Frieza in Resurrection F.

[HeroR]

SSJ = SSJG can't work because we've seen the SSJ Goku and Gohan are even in strength when they spar together. And we later see Gohan, despite the fact he was blinded, beat around Lavender as a SSJ, who's no stronger than Basil, a character who got his ass handed to him by a SSJ2 tier power character in Majin Boo.

We don't know how basil and lavender compare to each other so no
With gohan it depends on his episodes with piccolo to see where he really sitting at.
Goku never mentioned gohan being weak like he did back in the buu saga
Plus gohan trained 8 months with piccolo and trained again with him at the end of the black saga
So it truly depends on how his episodes with piccolo factor in it.

If Lavender was as strong as Basil, he would not have gotten his ass handed to him as easily as he did by Gohan. A blinded Gohan, nonetheless. The only reason Lavander got any kind of advantage in the fight when Gohan was a SSJ was because the poison was severely affecting his strength.

Even before then, Lavender traded blows with Gohan in base form before he got poisoned. Gohan's power was also not greatly effected by the poison until later in the fight. Lavender was most like above Basie since was the second to go and everyone went weakest to strongest.

Also, you can't say something stopped being a thing when no such thing was ever said in the series. There can be no debate is something you don't like is thrown out as 'retcon', especially when it based on nothing than 'this person can't be this strong'.

I'm not about to put Base -> SS3(Current) at Buu saga levels, forget that.. beyond ridiculous especially after all that training/Zenkais... like what Base Goku now is weaker than RoF Frieza? Hell no!

But that was no ordinary Base Goku. He was said to have the power of Super Saiyan God and was much stronger than when he fought Beerus. All of his strength came from having that God power absorbed into him.

Well maybe he doesn't use all of that Godly power in his Base form anymore. Maybe he only uses it with Super Saiyan Blue. Which is why the Kai's said he was at the level of Gods only after he turned Blue and not before.

So without that power and where he is currently I wouldn't say they're at their Buu levels but he wouldn't appear to be nearly as strong.

If Super Saiyan Blue is him with the power of God transforming into Super Saiyan then ordinary Super Saiyan would just be him transforming without the power of a God.

I still think Base Goku against Frieza was stonger than anytime since then when he's used any of the original Super Saiyan forms. Like I said he wasn't that far off from Trunks and Trunks even as a Ultra SSJ2 should be weaker than Final Form Frieza in Resurrection F.

That doesn't make much sense. Why would Goku not used his 'god power' in his base and just dumped it into Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan? Goku said that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan takes more stamina than his base form, so it would be a benefit if Goku could used a lot of power without transforming. And 'level of the gods' can easily mean god ki, or that his power approached that of a God of Destruction. Gowasu said pretty much the same thing about Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

[pacz360]

I'm not about to put Base -> SS3(Current) at Buu saga levels, forget that.. beyond ridiculous especially after all that training/Zenkais... like what Base Goku now is weaker than RoF Frieza? Hell no!

The Gohan/Krillin/Buu I'll take that as a spar.. Goku not showing his true power... Piccolo even says Gohan has a weak Fragile body.. this is the same Gohan who according to some people is on par with SS1 Goku... so according to what Piccolo said about Gohan... that'd mean Goku also has a weak Fragile body since he was supposedly = to SS1 Gohan.. which I highly disagree.

I also find it ridiculous how Goku bothered to transform for 17/Krillin & Gohan... but not Buu... I take it as Goku not being a bit serious and just messing around.

Exactly it makes no sense to say current base goku is weaker when he was able to face base copy vegeta who stomped
Ssj3 gotenks not to mention holding his own against beerus.

[HeroR]

Goku turned into SSJ to spar with Android 17 and they fought evenly.

This not only proves the two base theory without a shadow of a doubt now but it also gives credibility to the normal base not being way stronger than their Boo arc ones as DBZGTKOSH said.

Goku fought Buu without transforming and Buu got stronger and faster. Even if we go with this two-base theory, their normal base form is already stronger than they were in the Buu Saga since Beerus claimed that Goku's base was weaker than Freeza. And 17 was able to fight a suppressed Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, making this even more moot since that would put 17 above Super Saiyan God from Battle of Gods.

[Lord Beerus]

We don't know how basil and lavender compare to each other so no
With gohan it depends on his episodes with piccolo to see where he really sitting at.
Goku never mentioned gohan being weak like he did back in the buu saga
Plus gohan trained 8 months with piccolo and trained again with him at the end of the black saga
So it truly depends on how his episodes with piccolo factor in it.

If Lavender was as strong as Basil, he would not have gotten his ass handed to him as easily as he did by Gohan. A blinded Gohan, nonetheless. The only reason Lavander got any kind of advantage in the fight when Gohan was a SSJ was because the poison was severely affecting his strength.

Even before then, Lavender traded blows with Gohan in base form before he got poisoned. Gohan's power was also not greatly effected by the poison until later in the fight. Lavender was most like above Basie since was the second to go and everyone went weakest to strongest.

Also, you can't say something stopped being a thing when no such thing was ever said in the series. There can be no debate is something you don't like is thrown out as 'retcon', especially when it based on nothing than 'this person can't be this strong'.

I'm not about to put Base -> SS3(Current) at Buu saga levels, forget that.. beyond ridiculous especially after all that training/Zenkais... like what Base Goku now is weaker than RoF Frieza? Hell no!

But that was no ordinary Base Goku. He was said to have the power of Super Saiyan God and was much stronger than when he fought Beerus. All of his strength came from having that God power absorbed into him.

Well maybe he doesn't use all of that Godly power in his Base form anymore. Maybe he only uses it with Super Saiyan Blue. Which is why the Kai's said he was at the level of Gods only after he turned Blue and not before.

So without that power and where he is currently I wouldn't say they're at their Buu levels but he wouldn't appear to be nearly as strong.

If Super Saiyan Blue is him with the power of God transforming into Super Saiyan then ordinary Super Saiyan would just be him transforming without the power of a God.

I still think Base Goku against Frieza was stonger than anytime since then when he's used any of the original Super Saiyan forms. Like I said he wasn't that far off from Trunks and Trunks even as a Ultra SSJ2 should be weaker than Final Form Frieza in Resurrection F.

That doesn't make much sense. Why would Goku not used his 'god power' in his base and just dumped it into Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan? Goku said that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan takes more stamina than his base form, so it would be a benefit if Goku could used a lot of power without transforming. And 'level of the gods' can easily mean god ki, or that his power approached that of a God of Destruction. Gowasu said pretty much the same thing about Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

The fight only swayed in Lavender favor because Gohan literally couldn't see. Once he figured out a way to do so, he powered up to Super Saiyan, and started kicking Lavnader's ass and was about the end the fight before the power poison accelerated due to Gohan using SSJ. Which lead to his power being crippled. And even then Gohan was still able to overpower him. Unless you believe that Majin Boo is God-tier, SSJ = SSJG can't work.

[pacz360]

Rewatching the fight 17 is definitely ssjb level his comments refered to before meaning the power he was at during the cell saga not current.

[HeroR]

The fight only swayed in Lavender favor because Gohan literally couldn't see. Once he figured out a way to do so, he powered up to Super Saiyan, and started kicking Lavnader's ass and was about the end the fight before the power poison accelerated due to Gohan using SSJ. Which lead to his power being crippled. And even then Gohan was still able to overpower him. Unless you believe that Majin Boo is God-tier, SSJ = SSJG can't work.

Lavender fought base Gohan on even ground before he poisoned him. That happened seconds into the fight, so it wasn't like Gohan was owing Lavender before he got poisoned. He went Super Saiyan and Lavender still took the hits and could fight. If Lavender was only even or weaker than base form Gohan, Super Saiyan Gohan should have one-shotted him the first attack before the poison drained his strength. He wasn't about to finished nothing, Gohan dropped in the middle of the fight before he did anything closed to finishing move.

No, you don't want it to work. Goku in his base took hits from Buu and was no worst for wear. Goku didn't bother to transform, yet he did against Krillin. Unless you're trying to say Krillin is much stronger than Buu.

Rewatching the fight 17 is definitely ssjb level his comments refered to before meaning the power he was at during the cell saga not current.

He was talking current, otherwise why would Goku note that 17 was holding back if they're talking about the past?