Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Prove that they weren't at full power. Their demeanors, and the way Vegeta ended it, say otherwise.
If Gohan and Vegeta were at full power and actually attacked with intent to kill... easily, Goten and Trunks would be dead. It would be an incredibly one-sided beating. Reminiscent of how Future Trunks wiped out Frieza and King Cold.
Vegeta and Gohan were doing what I would do if my nephews would play fight me. They can punch around like whatever and it may bruise me but that does not mean they stand a snowballs chance in hell if I actually fought back.
My durability to take a hit is not equal to my true skill.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Prove that they weren't at full power. Their demeanors, and the way Vegeta ended it, say otherwise.
If Gohan and Vegeta were at full power and actually attacked with intent to kill... easily, Goten and Trunks would be dead. It would be an incredibly one-sided beating. Reminiscent of how Future Trunks wiped out Freeza and King Cold.
Vegeta and Gohan were doing what I would do if my nephews would play fight me. They can punch around like whatever and it may bruise me but that does not mean they stand a snowballs chance in hell if I actually fought back.
My durability to take a hit is not equal to my true skill.
So, in other words, you have no proof? Good to know.
Gohan/Vegeta were panicked, had trouble blocking, and had to stop the fights because they didn't want to get hit. These are not the actions of people who are not at full power. They would either let themselves get hit at full power, as their opponent could only tickle them, or power up a bit and become so fast that they're invisible to their opponent. Again, reality is not remotely relevant here. I don't see why you keep trying to use it to defend your claims.
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
You don't need any proof to say that Gohan/Vegeta could absolutely destroy Goten/Trunks, the same way you don't need proof to say that Future Trunks could have done the same against Cooler. Come on, do you truly think that Trunks have a snowballs chance in hell against Vegeta?
Angelus wrote:You don't need any proof to say that Gohan/Vegeta could absolutely destroy Goten/Trunks, the same way you don't need proof to say that Future Trunks could have done the same against Cooler. Come on, do you truly think that Trunks have a snowballs chance in hell against Vegeta?
Actually, yes you do. For both of those claims. The actual feats suggest otherwise. As do the guidebooks. Vegeta is stronger than Trunks, not but strong enough to dominate him to the extent that Goku dominated the Ginyus, or ~3% Freeza dominated Piccolo and co.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
The named Titan's (Eren, Annie, Reiner, Bertolt) from Shingeki no Kyojin vs 21st Budokai Goku, Krillin, and Yamcha. No knowledge of Titan weakness round 1, yes knowledge round 2.
singsing wrote:The named Titan's (Eren, Annie, Reiner, Bertolt) from Shingeki no Kyojin vs 21st Budokai Goku, Krillin, and Yamcha. No knowledge of Titan weakness round 1, yes knowledge round 2.
That's interesting...
I'm not sure their bites could Exert enough pressure to break Goku's skin, I'm unsure how resistant the armored titan's skin is. There's are things I'd need to know before answering.
Come on. Goten and Trunks aren't Even SSJ2. Yet they stand a chance, being just SSJ? Look at how SSJ2 Gohan easily destroyed the Cell Jr.s, which were ASSJ level.
singsing wrote:The named Titan's (Eren, Annie, Reiner, Bertolt) from Shingeki no Kyojin vs 21st Budokai Goku, Krillin, and Yamcha. No knowledge of Titan weakness round 1, yes knowledge round 2.
That's interesting...
I'm not sure their bites could Exert enough pressure to break Goku's skin, I'm unsure how resistant the armored titan's skin is. There's are things I'd need to know before answering.
I'm not sure how strong their bites would be either, but the armored titan was able to run through cannon balls more easily than the Hulk was running through machine gun fire.
Angelus wrote:Come on. Goten and Trunks aren't Even SSJ2. Yet they stand a chance, being just SSJ? Look at how SSJ2 Gohan easily destroyed the Cell Jr.s, which were ASSJ level.
In equal forms? Yes. And ASSJ was worse than FPSSJ by that point in time so I'm not sure where you're getting at.
Vegeta and Future Trunks were still at ASSJ level and that's the league the Cell Jrs were at. The Cell Jrs were not Goku or Gohan's MSSJ level. Either ways, SSJ2 destroyed them easy. Like how Trunks would end up if Vegeta was serious.
Angelus wrote:Come on. Goten and Trunks aren't Even SSJ2. Yet they stand a chance, being just SSJ? Look at how SSJ2 Gohan easily destroyed the Cell Jr.s, which were ASSJ level.
No, but they were in the same league as the adults in the same forms. Which are the forms they sparred in. It's obvious that they're decently close to the adult saiyans, which makes them ridiculously superior to Piccolo and the rest.
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Sat Nov 08, 2014 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
I have the ssj budakai kids at around namek ssj Goku level.
They shocked 18, piccolo, Vegeta and Gohan, nothing beyond ssj namek goku level is really required to explain that shock, and I'm not going to needlessly bloat power levels for the sake of goose stepping in line with popular opinion.
Piccolo does make the statement that trunks and Goten may be earth's only hope, but this can easily be seen the same way his statement cocerning Gohan may be necessary to defeat the saiyans, was. What I mean to say is that his statement was concerning the fact that the kids acomplished so much with minmal training, the same way Gohan had as a child. As a result, he saw that the kids could probably surpass him with training, and he could reasonably beleive training as a possibility, since he had the RoSaT.
How? Goku can't hit him and wouldn't be able to handle 100 million volts. He also isn't as strong or as fast in travelling speed.
100 million volts is town-Island level energy. Heat is just energy so there's no such thing as heat resistance/weakness unless explicitly stated. Looking back at it, 23rd Goku would lose because he's not fast enough. However, BoZ Goku is at least moon level and either too fast for him or not fast enough (Piccolo's moon blast speed is highly debatable whether it's an outlier or not). Even if Goku's too slow, the difference between moon and Island is crazy.
Canon is Jaco, Dragon Ball except for EoZ, Dragon Ball Super anime and manga (both are separate canons)
Kai >>> Z
Current Roshi/Kulilin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SSJ3 Gotenks
If the kids were Namek SSJ level they'd never be anything special. 18 comments that Vegeta and Goku were nothing special when both at the time surpassed Namek Goku. Namek SSJ level is a joke at this point in time.
Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P10.2-4, P11.1
Context: after Vegeta continues to fight No.18
Vegeta: “This is really starting to annoy me. You act as if nothing’s happened…”
No.18: “I’m surprised. To think that a flesh-and-blood human could be so good, even if you are an alien. Is this man called ‘Son Goku’ even stronger?”
Vegeta: “Don’t kid yourself. He may have temporarily slipped by me, but now things have returned to normal and I should be on top again.”
No.18: “What? So you’re nothing special. Either of you.”
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Giran's only hope is his gum but Fangs can transform to escape that so there goes that. If for no other reason than the time he appears in the series, I'm gonna give it to the vampire.
Nikkolas wrote:Giran's only hope is his gum but Fangs can transform to escape that so there goes that. If for no other reason than the time he appears in the series, I'm gonna give it to the vampire.
