Goku goes SSB kaioken times 20 against roshi and they will say he was holding back..HybridSaiyan wrote:I bet ya'll would try and justify if Master Roshi suddenly became god tier and be "But he trained every day after Raditz so of course he could match SSJB"
Everyone up to this point has been "holding back" lmao. Saiyan Saga - US saga = "Holding back"Ki Breaker wrote:Goku goes SSB kaioken times 20 against roshi and they will say he was holding back..HybridSaiyan wrote:I bet ya'll would try and justify if Master Roshi suddenly became god tier and be "But he trained every day after Raditz so of course he could match SSJB"
Yeah sure, I will whoop your ass with a molten chainsaw but I will be holding back, you definitely not gonna be severely burnt or anything
Not as fucked up it would be if Cell had trained for 2 months.HybridSaiyan wrote:Could you imagine how fucked the world would be If Cell absorbed THIS Android 17?
Suppression doesn't work based on mathematical models, it's a spiritual/physical phenomenon based on the exotic properties of an exotic form of energy residing within all living beings that's separate from things like heat entropy and subatomic charge that can be trained and honed by martial artists. It's more like how much effort you put into a punch than punching numbers into a calculator.ekrolo2 wrote:Here's a mathematical representation of how stupid the whole "Goku transforms then holds back!" logic is:
Future Trunks: 1 (Base), 50 (SS1), 100 (SS2)
Goku: 10,000 (Base), 500,000 (SS1), 1,000,000 (SS2), 100 (SS2 power according to the "holding back logic")
Needless to say, fuck this whole idea in the uvula with a stick of dynamite.
At the rates everyone gets stronger these days he could have trained for 10 days prior to the Cell Games and wiped out everyone.AvatarReiko wrote:Not as fucked up it would be if Cell had trained for 2 months.HybridSaiyan wrote:Could you imagine how fucked the world would be If Cell absorbed THIS Android 17?
The purpose of the numbers is to show how stupid of an excercise it is. Goku's Base can be sensed, we know for a fact its incredibly powerful, stronger than SS3 Gotenks as shown two episodes prior to the sparring match with Trunks. There is no reason, at all, in any sane place, for Goku, who's Base is leagues ahead of Trunks anything to power himself up dozens of times higher then that, then drop himself to a level of power with SS2 that's vastly inferior to his Base state.PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Suppression doesn't work based on mathematical models, it's a spiritual/physical phenomenon based on the exotic properties of an exotic form of energy residing within all living beings that's separate from things like heat entropy and subatomic charge that can be trained and honed by martial artists. It's more like how much effort you put into a punch than punching numbers into a calculator.ekrolo2 wrote:Here's a mathematical representation of how stupid the whole "Goku transforms then holds back!" logic is:
Future Trunks: 1 (Base), 50 (SS1), 100 (SS2)
Goku: 10,000 (Base), 500,000 (SS1), 1,000,000 (SS2), 100 (SS2 power according to the "holding back logic")
Needless to say, fuck this whole idea in the uvula with a stick of dynamite.
Using numbers is a faulty exercise because it's not representative of the reality. The reality is that by manipulating their exotic life energies in differing ways and amounts, they can easily adjust how strong or weak they are at the drop of a hat, and that they'd all be extremely weak compared to their energy-infused selves if they didn't use this exotic non-physics-based energy's properties.
Some of these martial artists can manipulate their exotic non-physics based life energies more precisely than others, even allowing them to reduce their strength in transformations that change the properties of their physical and spiritual being to match other beings that wouldn't stand a chance in a straight-up fight if they were to express the full might of their exotic non-physics-based life energies.
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Sorry for the "elitist" language, but the point is that numbers are only applicable in measuring very specific instances, like the full power of a SS being 50 times that of a base Saiyan, whose power can STILL vary wildly depending on needs and/or desire.
And why is said SS2 vastly inferior to base power?ekrolo2 wrote:The purpose of the numbers is to show how stupid of an excercise it is. Goku's Base can be sensed, we know for a fact its incredibly powerful, stronger than SS3 Gotenks as shown two episodes prior to the sparring match with Trunks. There is no reason, at all, in any sane place, for Goku, who's Base is leagues ahead of Trunks anything to power himself up dozens of times higher then that, then drop himself to a level of power with SS2 that's vastly inferior to his Base state.PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Suppression doesn't work based on mathematical models, it's a spiritual/physical phenomenon based on the exotic properties of an exotic form of energy residing within all living beings that's separate from things like heat entropy and subatomic charge that can be trained and honed by martial artists. It's more like how much effort you put into a punch than punching numbers into a calculator.ekrolo2 wrote:Here's a mathematical representation of how stupid the whole "Goku transforms then holds back!" logic is:
Future Trunks: 1 (Base), 50 (SS1), 100 (SS2)
Goku: 10,000 (Base), 500,000 (SS1), 1,000,000 (SS2), 100 (SS2 power according to the "holding back logic")
Needless to say, fuck this whole idea in the uvula with a stick of dynamite.
Using numbers is a faulty exercise because it's not representative of the reality. The reality is that by manipulating their exotic life energies in differing ways and amounts, they can easily adjust how strong or weak they are at the drop of a hat, and that they'd all be extremely weak compared to their energy-infused selves if they didn't use this exotic non-physics-based energy's properties.
Some of these martial artists can manipulate their exotic non-physics based life energies more precisely than others, even allowing them to reduce their strength in transformations that change the properties of their physical and spiritual being to match other beings that wouldn't stand a chance in a straight-up fight if they were to express the full might of their exotic non-physics-based life energies.
===
Sorry for the "elitist" language, but the point is that numbers are only applicable in measuring very specific instances, like the full power of a SS being 50 times that of a base Saiyan, whose power can STILL vary wildly depending on needs and/or desire.
Because his Base form can do that just fine! He's stronger than SS3 Gotenks and Trunks can sense him, why can't he just lower his Base to match Trunks' SS2 then gradually power it up until Trunks says "There! That's Black's level of strength!" Why go the stupidly convoluted route of having him make his Base, which is already leagues above Trunks, dozens of times stronger with SS2 then drop everything to match Trunks when simply matching him in Base is good enough?PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:And why is said SS2 vastly inferior to base power?ekrolo2 wrote:The purpose of the numbers is to show how stupid of an excercise it is. Goku's Base can be sensed, we know for a fact its incredibly powerful, stronger than SS3 Gotenks as shown two episodes prior to the sparring match with Trunks. There is no reason, at all, in any sane place, for Goku, who's Base is leagues ahead of Trunks anything to power himself up dozens of times higher then that, then drop himself to a level of power with SS2 that's vastly inferior to his Base state.PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Suppression doesn't work based on mathematical models, it's a spiritual/physical phenomenon based on the exotic properties of an exotic form of energy residing within all living beings that's separate from things like heat entropy and subatomic charge that can be trained and honed by martial artists. It's more like how much effort you put into a punch than punching numbers into a calculator.
Using numbers is a faulty exercise because it's not representative of the reality. The reality is that by manipulating their exotic life energies in differing ways and amounts, they can easily adjust how strong or weak they are at the drop of a hat, and that they'd all be extremely weak compared to their energy-infused selves if they didn't use this exotic non-physics-based energy's properties.
Some of these martial artists can manipulate their exotic non-physics based life energies more precisely than others, even allowing them to reduce their strength in transformations that change the properties of their physical and spiritual being to match other beings that wouldn't stand a chance in a straight-up fight if they were to express the full might of their exotic non-physics-based life energies.
===
Sorry for the "elitist" language, but the point is that numbers are only applicable in measuring very specific instances, like the full power of a SS being 50 times that of a base Saiyan, whose power can STILL vary wildly depending on needs and/or desire.
And why is suppressing oneself to such low levels unreasonable? Transformations convey power on their own, even if suppression makes them weaker than full-power base forms. It's a sign of respect in a martial arts sense, as seen when Goku transformed for Krillin, because he respected his best friend's fighting ability and wanted to test what he'd do.
The problem people have is that Trunks matches Goku WITHOUT Whis training. Remember Goku got 400-500x stronger in base alone. It's ridiculous that Trunks was able to match those level of gains all by himself when just a few years prior he struggled against Dabura despite being personally trained by the Supreme Kai and he best they could do was get him to SSJ2 levels... even you have to admit the dots don't connect.PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:First of all, no evidence exists of Future Trunks being significantly below Goku and Vegeta to the point that their base power is above his SS2 power. If anything, the evidence contradicts this notion, as he's specifically stated to have gotten stronger, was called impressive by Beerus, is able to spar with Present Trunks' SS form in base form, and can gain the upperhand against a dropped-guard Future Zamasu that can exchange power blows with SSB Goku and Vegeta.
Second, transforming even when it's unnecessary is a sign of respect, a clear indicator that a character is escalating the fight, and is visually more distinct than simply powering up in base form. It clearly conveys to another character that the one they're fighting is gonna be moving to the next level. It's not logical, but then being able to harness Ki and transform to turn your hair gold from rage isn't logical either, now is it?
There is evidence because SS3 Gotenks got one-shotted by Copy Vegeta not two episodes prior, so, unless you're going to tell me Trunks, who was barely above Namek Goku after an entire life time spent under the Androids, magically improved enough on his own, without a ROSAT, without Whis, without a God ritual managed to get this powerful without ANY training method to justify it, I'm gonna call BS on him being this powerful, he shouldn't be any stronger than Super Perfect Cell at best who'd be fodder to Base Goku & Vegeta at this point.PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:First of all, no evidence exists of Future Trunks being significantly below Goku and Vegeta to the point that their base power is above his SS2 power. If anything, the evidence contradicts this notion, as he's specifically stated to have gotten stronger, was called impressive by Beerus, is able to spar with Present Trunks' SS form in base form, and can gain the upperhand against a dropped-guard Future Zamasu that can exchange power blows with SSB Goku and Vegeta.
Second, transforming even when it's unnecessary is a sign of respect, a clear indicator that a character is escalating the fight, and is visually more distinct than simply powering up in base form. It clearly conveys to another character that the one they're fighting is gonna be moving to the next level. It's not logical, but then being able to harness Ki and transform to turn your hair gold from rage isn't logical either, now is it?
but didn't the manga shows us, Trunks was using the z sword to train,oh wait that logic only applies to the manga.ekrolo2 wrote:There is evidence because SS3 Gotenks got one-shotted by Copy Vegeta not two episodes prior, so, unless you're going to tell me Trunks, who was barely above Namek Goku after an entire life time spent under the Androids, magically improved enough on his own, without a ROSAT, without Whis, without a God ritual managed to get this powerful without ANY training method to justify it, I'm gonna call BS on him being this powerful, he shouldn't be any stronger than Super Perfect Cell at best who'd be fodder to Base Goku & Vegeta at this point.PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:First of all, no evidence exists of Future Trunks being significantly below Goku and Vegeta to the point that their base power is above his SS2 power. If anything, the evidence contradicts this notion, as he's specifically stated to have gotten stronger, was called impressive by Beerus, is able to spar with Present Trunks' SS form in base form, and can gain the upperhand against a dropped-guard Future Zamasu that can exchange power blows with SSB Goku and Vegeta.
Second, transforming even when it's unnecessary is a sign of respect, a clear indicator that a character is escalating the fight, and is visually more distinct than simply powering up in base form. It clearly conveys to another character that the one they're fighting is gonna be moving to the next level. It's not logical, but then being able to harness Ki and transform to turn your hair gold from rage isn't logical either, now is it?
Trunks also doesnt give a fuck about warrior respect, he's one of the few characters who actively goes against it and in Goku's fight with Black, he even says "Why doesn't Goku just use that power of his to finish this?" then gawks in shock when Goku's just dicking around with Black instead of killing him. Trunks doesn't give a fuck about the convenient warrior code period.
Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken is only used when Goku goes all out in fights. It basically serves as a "Plan B" if he's not finishing a fight with SSJB. He's only used it three times so far: against Hit, Merged Zamasu and Bergamo. And in all those episodes Goku really needed to use that form given the circumstances of those fights.Marlowe89 wrote:The problem more than anything is just that Toei's writers aren't particularly good at justifying some of the things they put into script. Blue Kaioken was already used way more than it needed to be despite being a supposedly dangerous life-risking transformation, and now Blue is getting carelessly inserted into random sparring plots with the lousiest of excuses because it's popular with viewers even though the show has repeatedly established that it's a special transformation reserved chiefly for the most serious of fights.Lord Beerus wrote:So can we confirm that Android 17 far stronger than SSJ Goku, but not a challenge to full power SSJB Goku? Because that's what the episode pretty much implies. We have no idea how much he held back against SSJB Goku and how much SSJB Goku held back against him to come to a conclusion in regards to just how strong he is. For all we know SSJB Goku dropped his battle power to just above SSJ3 tier. And Android 17 may have been using 70-80% power. It's made incredibly vague, and purposely done so on Toei's part.
There certainly seems to be a lack of sincerity here, as if Toei wants to drive up viewership but doesn't necessarily have the writing ability to back up what they're doing. I don't know if 17 is actually as strong as Super Saiyan Blue, but with the vagueness and subtle implications of the episode it's obvious that the writers don't necessarily want us to jump to that conclusion. They just wanted a reason to show off the form again and that's that.
Ki-based fighting is weird like that, as are Saiyans themselves.TheMikado wrote:I think the issue people have with SSBxKK is its supposed to be a 90% chance of destroying his body and Goku has basically used it in every major arc since he revealed he has it. At no point does he say "I figured out how to use this". He just keeps doing it and in two of the circumstances they were tournaments, one was a preliminary so if he was wrecked he would be completely screwed for the tournament. The other was the debut where he says the risk then cranks it to X10 and then after all that build and risk as if his life depends on it he just gives up because he can't have a good fight. It's kinda weird to be honest. But for some reason when Merged Zamasu is threatening his life he gets a rage boost but can't take it to x10 now when his life is endanger by the same guys he just a rage boost over for killing his family.
