Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Lord Beerus]

And that was how was discovered that android 17 could have, at the time, kill Boo and rescue the planet, becoming the true hero of the manga.

These Toei's guys continue to invent ways to mortify the original story.

Except there is nothing to imply that Android 17 was stronger than any form of Majin Boo after seven years. As a matter of fact, we have concrete idea of how strong Android 17 is in any sense. What know so far is that he's much stronger than SSJ Goku. But when up against SSJB Goku, who was not taking the fight seriously and heavily implying he was not using all of his power, and precisely how much of Goku's power he was using is still a mystery, Android 17 believed he would have lost.

[Triggered Vegeta]

Anybody find it weird when No. 17 said "so you can transform into that form to" after Goku goes blue. It could be nothing, maybe taken out of context.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

And that was how was discovered that android 17 could have, at the time, kill Boo and rescue the planet, becoming the true hero of the manga.

These Toei's guys continue to invent ways to mortify the original story.

Except there is nothing to imply that Android 17 was stronger than any form of Majin Boo after seven years. As a matter of fact, we have concrete idea of how strong Android 17 is in any sense. What know so far is that he's much stronger than SSJ Goku. But when up against SSJB Goku, who's was not taking the fight seriously and heavily implying he was not using all of his power, and precisely how much of Goku's power he was using is still a mystery, Android 17 believed he would have lost.

Not to mention that Goku just turned SSB seamlessly from SS. Given the form's great Ki control and all-around utility for measuring fighters with its inability to be sensed by regular fighters and the pressure it emits, it just makes sense to use that over SS2 or SS3.

For all we know, 17 could've just been equal to SS2 Goku's level, and that he felt SSB was a better alternative to use at the moment.

[Gorou]

Except there is nothing to imply that Android 17 was stronger than any form of Majin Boo after seven years. As a matter of fact, we have concrete idea of how strong Android 17 is in any sense. What know so far is that he's much stronger than SSJ Goku. But when up against SSJB Goku, who's was not taking the fight seriously and heavily implying he was not using all of his power, and precisely how much of Goku's power he was using is still a mystery, Android 17 believed he would have lost.

I expected this answer

In truth, there is a entire fight where Android 17 fight on par with Goku visibly engaged, and where the first not show the slightest problem to resist to his Kamehameha (one of his best attacks).This phony story who would claim that Goku turns into its most powerful stage, and then take part in a duel where he fights with fury and commitment, but at the same time hold back a generous 90% of its power, create only to tempt to justify Toei's blunders, I honestly find quite risible.

[Lord Beerus]

Except there is nothing to imply that Android 17 was stronger than any form of Majin Boo after seven years. As a matter of fact, we have concrete idea of how strong Android 17 is in any sense. What know so far is that he's much stronger than SSJ Goku. But when up against SSJB Goku, who's was not taking the fight seriously and heavily implying he was not using all of his power, and precisely how much of Goku's power he was using is still a mystery, Android 17 believed he would have lost.

I expected this answer

In truth, there is a entire fight where Android 17 fight on par with Goku visibly engaged, and where the first not show the slightest problem to resist to his Kamehameha (one of his best attacks).This phony story who would claim that Goku turns into its most powerful stage, and then take part in a duel where he fights with fury and commitment, but at the same time hold back a generous 90% of its power, create only to tempt to justify Toei's blunders, I honestly find quite risible.

Do we know how much power Goku held back? No. Do we know what the tiers of strength are for when Goku hold backs in strength as a SSJB are? No. The strength of Android 17 is still very vague. And even Goku himself believes that Android 17 was hiding some power. The quantities of how much the both of the were holding back in strength, as this wasn't a fight to the death, are unknown. Android 17 believes he would have lost if the fight continued and Goku took it seriously, but Goku isn't convinced about. It's all very ambiguous and vague. So to say that Android 17 is God tier is really jumping the gun. There's a huge gap in strength from SSJ1-3 to SSJB that Goku can utilize even when he's a SSBJ. Goku knows how to properly control his power even when he's utilizing his most power form. I mean, if he didn't, everytime he powered up into SSJB, he'd kill everyone. Ki control and power management is a technique that every character in the show has. Even for more insanely strong characters like Beerus, Whis, Hit, Champa, Goku and Vegeta.

[dbzfan7]

In truth, there is a entire fight where Android 17 fight on par with Goku visibly engaged, and where the first not show the slightest problem to resist to his Kamehameha (one of his best attacks).This phony story who would claim that Goku turns into its most powerful stage, and then take part in a duel where he fights with fury and commitment, but at the same time hold back a generous 90% of its power, create only to tempt to justify Toei's blunders, I honestly find quite risible.

Now if only we had the equation of how the target audience is supposed to understand all this reaching.

[Gorou]

Do we know how much power Goku held back? No. Do we know what the tiers of strength are for when Goku hold backs in strength as a SSJB are? No. The strength of Android 17 is still very vague. And even Goku himself believes that Android 17 was hiding some power. The quantities of how much the both of the were holding back in strength, as this wasn't a fight to the death, are unknown. Android 17 believes he would have lost if the fight continued and Goku took it seriously, but Goku isn't convinced about. It's all very ambiguous and vague. So to say that Android 17 is God tier is really jumping the gun. There's a huge gap in strength from SSJ1-3 to SSJB that Goku can utilize even when he's a SSBJ. Goku knows how to properly control his power even when he's utilizing his most power form. I mean, if he didn't, everytime he powered up into SSJB, he'd kill everyone. Ki control and power management is a technique that every character in the show has. Even for more the most insanely strong characters like Beerus, Whis, Hit, Champa, Goku and Vegeta.

For now is very vage even your theory. The problem is always the same: this series does not gives at the viewers a minimum reference. Everything is vague, hazy, except that 17 is actually able to contrast without too much trouble SSJ Blue Goku He was holding back, Goku was holding back, but, in fact, the two have proven to be equal in a direct confrontation. We can also stay here to quibble about how the situation presented to us today is uncertain, but remains that Goku was not giving the impression of holding monstrous portions of his power at all . It did not seem like he was holding back even 50% of its strength. And only the fact that 17 prove to be strongest than Goku SSJ, puts it at a higher level at most Buu seen before, considering that Goku, already in its basic form, only in the previous episode fought with dignity against a upgrade thin Boo post-training.

[lancerman]

Except there is nothing to imply that Android 17 was stronger than any form of Majin Boo after seven years. As a matter of fact, we have concrete idea of how strong Android 17 is in any sense. What know so far is that he's much stronger than SSJ Goku. But when up against SSJB Goku, who's was not taking the fight seriously and heavily implying he was not using all of his power, and precisely how much of Goku's power he was using is still a mystery, Android 17 believed he would have lost.

I expected this answer

In truth, there is a entire fight where Android 17 fight on par with Goku visibly engaged, and where the first not show the slightest problem to resist to his Kamehameha (one of his best attacks).This phony story who would claim that Goku turns into its most powerful stage, and then take part in a duel where he fights with fury and commitment, but at the same time hold back a generous 90% of its power, create only to tempt to justify Toei's blunders, I honestly find quite risible.

The same could be said for the deliberate hand waving of both fighters holding back being ignored so we can make massive assumptions about power levels. Again Goku's most powerful form is also his most controlled form. SSJ2 and SSJ3 are less efficcient, more straining, and don't offer the same level of ki control. And it's progressive. Goku once mastered SSJ and then added god ki to it. His most controlled forms are base, SSJ and SSJB. With SSJB arguably being the most controlled of all. So it's completely reasonable that if he wants a power up he would bypass his far less usefull forms and only go with the two that give him the most control over his abilities. Especially if Goku deems 17 higher than SSJ then it makes more sense to go to SSJB and scale it back than to go SSJ2 or SSJ3 where he has far less control and can burn himself out faster.

And we've seen plenty of fights in the series where a character held back and still made the fight look competitive. The entire final form Freeza fight, Perfect Cell vs Vegeta, Goku in several tournaments.

Again once the phrase "held back" was used, this became a pointless argument because we have no indication over how much he held back.

[Lord Beerus]

Do we know how much power Goku held back? No. Do we know what the tiers of strength are for when Goku hold backs in strength as a SSJB are? No. The strength of Android 17 is still very vague. And even Goku himself believes that Android 17 was hiding some power. The quantities of how much the both of the were holding back in strength, as this wasn't a fight to the death, are unknown. Android 17 believes he would have lost if the fight continued and Goku took it seriously, but Goku isn't convinced about. It's all very ambiguous and vague. So to say that Android 17 is God tier is really jumping the gun. There's a huge gap in strength from SSJ1-3 to SSJB that Goku can utilize even when he's a SSBJ. Goku knows how to properly control his power even when he's utilizing his most power form. I mean, if he didn't, everytime he powered up into SSJB, he'd kill everyone. Ki control and power management is a technique that every character in the show has. Even for more the most insanely strong characters like Beerus, Whis, Hit, Champa, Goku and Vegeta.

For now is very vage even your theory. The problem is always the same: this series does not gives at the viewers a minimum reference. Everything is vague, hazy, except that 17 is actually able to contrast without too much trouble SSJ Blue Goku He was holding back, Goku was holding back, but, in fact, the two have proven to be equal in a direct confrontation. We can also stay here to quibble about how the situation presented to us today is uncertain, but remains that Goku was not giving the impression of holding monstrous portions of his power at all . It did not seem like he was holding back even 50% of its strength. And only the fact that 17 prove to be strongest than Goku SSJ, puts it at a higher level at most Buu seen before, considering that Goku, already in its basic form, only in the previous episode fought with dignity against a upgrade thin Boo post-training.

I think it's fair in wanting a few more numbers to be thrown out there for reference in strength. But I don't think Toei/Toriyama(?) want to narrow the scope of the narrative and put definitive cap of just how strong Android 17 is. I think the main reasoning behind keep everybody's power and methods of growth a mystery is so that there is less chance of them being benched when the next major arc happen. And also so that there is more room for them to abuse other methods of enhancing their strength without it being repetitive. It may be very preemptive to say this, but I have a feeling Super wants more of an emphasis of an ensemble cast and Toei/Toriyama(?) don't want to just blow their load right now and have the supporting characters go through all extreme and unorthodox training methods just to hit all of the supporting cast brick wall when the next, and even-more-powerful-than-the-last, protagonist(s) arrives in the next major arc.

Just a thought.

[Bullza]

So can we confirm that Android 17 far stronger than SSJ Goku, but not a challenge to full power SSJB Goku?

That's probably what's most likely.

People are really jumping the gun on saying he's Blue Tier. He's not gonna be that strong.

We just saw Super Saiyan Blue Goku hold back so much that Krillin could stand up to him and Android 18 can simply kick his Kamehameha flying. Yet even though we know for sure he was holding back in this episode....there's some who don't take it into full consideration.

[Lord Beerus]

So can we confirm that Android 17 far stronger than SSJ Goku, but not a challenge to full power SSJB Goku?

That's probably what's most likely.

People are really jumping the gun on saying he's Blue Tier. He's not gonna be that strong.

We just saw Super Saiyan Blue Goku hold back so much that Krillin could stand up to him and Android 18 can simply kick his Kamehameha flying. Yet even though we know for sure he was holding back in this episode....there's some who don't take it into full consideration.

A lot of people are jumping the gun with Android 17 because Goku used SSJB. Automatically assuming that Goku is using a good chunk of strength to do seen, when it's literally stated in the episode not to be the case. And by the fact we've seen Goku lower his strength to accommodate other characters.

[lancerman]

Do we know how much power Goku held back? No. Do we know what the tiers of strength are for when Goku hold backs in strength as a SSJB are? No. The strength of Android 17 is still very vague. And even Goku himself believes that Android 17 was hiding some power. The quantities of how much the both of the were holding back in strength, as this wasn't a fight to the death, are unknown. Android 17 believes he would have lost if the fight continued and Goku took it seriously, but Goku isn't convinced about. It's all very ambiguous and vague. So to say that Android 17 is God tier is really jumping the gun. There's a huge gap in strength from SSJ1-3 to SSJB that Goku can utilize even when he's a SSBJ. Goku knows how to properly control his power even when he's utilizing his most power form. I mean, if he didn't, everytime he powered up into SSJB, he'd kill everyone. Ki control and power management is a technique that every character in the show has. Even for more the most insanely strong characters like Beerus, Whis, Hit, Champa, Goku and Vegeta.

For now is very vage even your theory. The problem is always the same: this series does not gives at the viewers a minimum reference. Everything is vague, hazy, except that 17 is actually able to contrast without too much trouble SSJ Blue Goku He was holding back, Goku was holding back, but, in fact, the two have proven to be equal in a direct confrontation. We can also stay here to quibble about how the situation presented to us today is uncertain, but remains that Goku was not giving the impression of holding monstrous portions of his power at all . It did not seem like he was holding back even 50% of its strength. And only the fact that 17 prove to be strongest than Goku SSJ, puts it at a higher level at most Buu seen before, considering that Goku, already in its basic form, only in the previous episode fought with dignity against a upgrade thin Boo post-training.

There's no basis for this statement. Goku needed to go beyond SSJ and went to SSJB and held back. That's all the information we have. If the next episode he said he only put in enough to be marginally higher than SSJ but less than SSJ2 it would be more correct than your 50% statement or even assuming he was holding back 1% of his power.

You're countering an assumption with an assumption. The only differences is we were given a massive range of anywhere from stronger than SSJ to somewhat less than SSJB and we are debating how much that completely grey area is and if it was justifiable or not. The fact is, there were deliberate statements in the fight intended for the viewer to not take it as face value. It's really not worth complaining about whether the power scaling for this fight was ridiculous or not when those are the qualifications placed on the fight. It's taking a grey area and trying to assume the worst to have a reason to complain.

[ZombieVito]

Yeah, 17 is stronger than SSJ1 and that's it. He shouldn't be stronger than SSJ2 until shown otherwise.

The pickle here is to know how powerful are Goku and Vegeta's normal bases currently compared to their ones from the Boo arc.

[Gorou]

And we've seen plenty of fights in the series where a character held back and still made the fight look competitive. The entire final form Freeza fight, Perfect Cell vs Vegeta, Goku in several tournaments.

Again once the phrase "held back" was used, this became a pointless argument because we have no indication over how much he held back.

The substantial difference is that Freeza, Cell, and also Beerus, have no transformation. They have only one form, which is the equivalent of the Saiyan's basic form, and that they use. No transformation, they simply give off or repress their strength. They not act like Goku, which turns then, without any logic, limit himself to use a millionth part of his power, which could well do already in his basic form

[TheMikado]

So can we confirm that Android 17 far stronger than SSJ Goku, but not a challenge to full power SSJB Goku?

That's probably what's most likely.

People are really jumping the gun on saying he's Blue Tier. He's not gonna be that strong.

We just saw Super Saiyan Blue Goku hold back so much that Krillin could stand up to him and Android 18 can simply kick his Kamehameha flying. Yet even though we know for sure he was holding back in this episode....there's some who don't take it into full consideration.

AND this is why I was pissed about the Krillin thing. NOT because it was poorly executed. I'm use to it by now, but because it was setting it he stage as a reference point to justify further power level shenanigans. We can say Goku held back 90% of his power because he just held back 99% of his power but we will also reference it when Krillin sneak attacks and takes out Toppo that justifies him doing that to a SSB tier character.

[Simere]

So can we confirm that Android 17 far stronger than SSJ Goku, but not a challenge to full power SSJB Goku?

That's probably what's most likely.

People are really jumping the gun on saying he's Blue Tier. He's not gonna be that strong.

We just saw Super Saiyan Blue Goku hold back so much that Krillin could stand up to him and Android 18 can simply kick his Kamehameha flying. Yet even though we know for sure he was holding back in this episode....there's some who don't take it into full consideration.

It seems to me that more people aren't taking into full consideration that it was said 17 was holding back too.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So can we confirm that Android 17 far stronger than SSJ Goku, but not a challenge to full power SSJB Goku?

That's probably what's most likely.

People are really jumping the gun on saying he's Blue Tier. He's not gonna be that strong.

We just saw Super Saiyan Blue Goku hold back so much that Krillin could stand up to him and Android 18 can simply kick his Kamehameha flying. Yet even though we know for sure he was holding back in this episode....there's some who don't take it into full consideration.

It seems to me that more people aren't taking into full consideration that it was said 17 was holding back too.

Oh they are. But 17 also recognized he probably would've lost to Goku's full power.

[Triggered Vegeta]

There's a certain line in ep 86... makes me believe No. 17 has seen SSB before.

[AvatarReiko]

Except there is nothing to imply that Android 17 was stronger than any form of Majin Boo after seven years. As a matter of fact, we have concrete idea of how strong Android 17 is in any sense. What know so far is that he's much stronger than SSJ Goku. But when up against SSJB Goku, who's was not taking the fight seriously and heavily implying he was not using all of his power, and precisely how much of Goku's power he was using is still a mystery, Android 17 believed he would have lost.

I expected this answer

In truth, there is a entire fight where Android 17 fight on par with Goku visibly engaged, and where the first not show the slightest problem to resist to his Kamehameha (one of his best attacks).This phony story who would claim that Goku turns into its most powerful stage, and then take part in a duel where he fights with fury and commitment, but at the same time hold back a generous 90% of its power, create only to tempt to justify Toei's blunders, I honestly find quite risible.

The same could be said for the deliberate hand waving of both fighters holding back being ignored so we can make massive assumptions about power levels. Again Goku's most powerful form is also his most controlled form. SSJ2 and SSJ3 are less efficcient, more straining, and don't offer the same level of ki control..

This is a myth. Goku has never had any issues sustaining and regulating his SSJ2 form.

[Lord Beerus]

So can we confirm that Android 17 far stronger than SSJ Goku, but not a challenge to full power SSJB Goku?

That's probably what's most likely.

People are really jumping the gun on saying he's Blue Tier. He's not gonna be that strong.

We just saw Super Saiyan Blue Goku hold back so much that Krillin could stand up to him and Android 18 can simply kick his Kamehameha flying. Yet even though we know for sure he was holding back in this episode....there's some who don't take it into full consideration.

AND this is why I was pissed about the Krillin thing. NOT because it was poorly executed. I'm use to it by now, but because it was setting it he stage as a reference point to justify further power level shenanigans. We can say Goku held back 90% of his power because he just held back 99% of his power but we will also reference it when Krillin sneak attacks and takes out Toppo that justifies him doing that to a SSB tier character.

But... Krillin didn't beat a SSJB tier character using strength or tactics. He outsmarted base Gohan who was kicking his ass and not using all of his power. And use strategy and strength to hold his own against base Goku. Once Goku used a bit of effort as SSJB in the beam clash, and to how power used as SSJB to begin was is still not clarified, he easily overwhelms Krillin in Kamehameha beam struggle and it leads to Android 18 having to kick the blast away to prevent it from potentially harming Krillin.