Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Triggered Vegeta]

The episode reminded me once again of EoZ Goku.

Couldn't Base Goku's strength there against Uub give an idea of where he stands now?

Nah he's way stronger now in base than he was in EoZ when he fought uub. Whenever he fights uub in DBS... he'll be leagues stronger than the Goku we saw at the end of Z.

[TheMikado]

That combined with how often it's used. It's used in baseball, testing Krillin/Future Trunks, whenever somebody makes baby Bulla/Bra cry, and all those other instances of its use. It certainly has no obvious disadvantages in the anime compared to the manga.

Being a form of the mastered SS form, it's naturally very stable, but possessing the power of SSG makes it stable enough that it can be used with Kaio-ken where normal SS can't.

Wait where is this information coming from? Where was it stand to be stable? Where was stability even mentioned? These are the kinds of things I'm asking, where is this additional information about how SSB works coming from b cause to my knownledge we only have two sentences, power of a SSJ with God and ki control.

I used stable in the same sense as regular SS, not any specific dialogue. Besides, I use "stable" interchangeably with "good Ki control", because that's exactly what a stable form is: a form that doesn't leak energy like SS2 or SS3. The fact that Goku and Vegeta get a taste of this kind of power by learning how to keep their Ki from leaking is likely where SSB's great Ki control comes from.

Elder Kai also stated that even the mastered regular SS was too intensive to be used in conjunction with Kaio-ken, whereas SSB wasn't and had the Ki control to do the job.

That's fine but you understand we are playing hopscotch at this point.

Good ki control = stable = not leaking ki = Goku can control the output of SSB to below base levels = Goku was obviously holding back in SSB because of the circular and circumstantial argument that SSB has great ki control.

I think what I'm trying to say is there's a lot of filling in the blanks that caused the fan base to draw connections where there are none. I'm not saying it's not possible or correct, but stating it as a factual reason is disingenuous and incorrect, especially when said to those who don't know better. There are some key missing leaks in connecting those ideas which are fan based and I'm not saying it isn't correct to theorize it should be acknowledged that they are only theories and not official supported by any information presented thus far.

Also the theory doesn't explain why when Goku spars with SSJ Gohan he can also hold back. Remember Gokus base should be 400-500x stronger than Gohans base and the SSJ form doesn't have great ki control so he should be able to hold but that much as SSJ against Gohan.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

That's fine but you understand we are playing hopscotch at this point.

Good ki control = stable = not leaking ki = Goku can control the output of SSB to below base levels = Goku was obviously holding back in SSB because of the circular and circumstantial argument that SSB has great ki control.

I think what I'm trying to say is there's a lot of filling in the blanks that caused the fan base to draw connections where there are none. I'm not saying it's not possible or correct, but stating it as a factual reason is disingenuous and incorrect, especially when said to those who don't know better. There are some key missing leaks in connecting those ideas which are fan based and I'm not saying it isn't correct to theorize it should be acknowledged that they are only theories and not official supported by any information presented thus far.

Also the theory doesn't explain why when Goku spars with SSJ Gohan he can also hold back. Remember Gokus base should be 400-500x stronger than Gohans base and the SSJ form doesn't have great ki control so he should be able to hold but that much as SSJ against Gohan.

The Cell Games has you covered there. Remember when Goku and Gohan were walking around casually as mastered Super Saiyans, and quite obviously not even close to full power on a constant basis? They could control how much of SS's multiplier they used along with how much of their base power was being multiplied.

Also, it's never stated that regular SS doesn't have great Ki control, just not as good as SSB's. Combined with the above, one can make the inference that, since SSB has better Ki control than SS, a user could easily suppress their power level to various tiers of strength, both multiplication-wise AND base power-wise.

[TheMikado]

That's fine but you understand we are playing hopscotch at this point.

Good ki control = stable = not leaking ki = Goku can control the output of SSB to below base levels = Goku was obviously holding back in SSB because of the circular and circumstantial argument that SSB has great ki control.

I think what I'm trying to say is there's a lot of filling in the blanks that caused the fan base to draw connections where there are none. I'm not saying it's not possible or correct, but stating it as a factual reason is disingenuous and incorrect, especially when said to those who don't know better. There are some key missing leaks in connecting those ideas which are fan based and I'm not saying it isn't correct to theorize it should be acknowledged that they are only theories and not official supported by any information presented thus far.

Also the theory doesn't explain why when Goku spars with SSJ Gohan he can also hold back. Remember Gokus base should be 400-500x stronger than Gohans base and the SSJ form doesn't have great ki control so he should be able to hold but that much as SSJ against Gohan.

The Cell Games has you covered there. Remember when Goku and Gohan were walking around casually as mastered Super Saiyans, and quite obviously not even close to full power on a constant basis? They could control how much of SS's multiplier they used along with how much of their base power was being multiplied.

Also, it's never stated that regular SS doesn't have great Ki control, just not as good as SSB's. Combined with the above, one can make the inference that, since SSB has better Ki control than SS, a user could easily suppress their power level to various tiers of strength, both multiplication-wise AND base power-wise.

Wait what? We're playing hopscotch again.
I referenced FSSJ before as an example of very specific training Goku and Gohan had to go through to achieve its use. Trunks and Vegeta couldn't just do it after learning about it. It was something they specifically trained for over time. I wouldn't have a hard time believing that's the case for SSB but they went out of their way to state its fundamentally different in the ki application then SSJ. So why would the same ki control method instantly carry over? further if the skills are interchangabe it seems like they should be able to do a FSSJ x KK.

So to review,
-You state because they have shown ki control as FSSJ it stand to reason they should be able to do the same as SSB.
-The show states that SSJ and SSB are fundamentally different in terms of ki control, allowing them to do different things due to the difference of the forms.
The is no link from FSSJ to stating that SSB can manipulate down their ki output. We have already seen it doesn't carry over even in the same transformation branch.
Your assertion also implies that the FSSJ skill should transfer over to other SSJ forms so Gohan and Goku should also naturally have a FSSJ2/3 form as well however the show has not shown that. Any idea that that skill naturally transfers over to the other transformation forms is pure fan fiction and should not be spread as fact.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

That's fine but you understand we are playing hopscotch at this point.

Good ki control = stable = not leaking ki = Goku can control the output of SSB to below base levels = Goku was obviously holding back in SSB because of the circular and circumstantial argument that SSB has great ki control.

I think what I'm trying to say is there's a lot of filling in the blanks that caused the fan base to draw connections where there are none. I'm not saying it's not possible or correct, but stating it as a factual reason is disingenuous and incorrect, especially when said to those who don't know better. There are some key missing leaks in connecting those ideas which are fan based and I'm not saying it isn't correct to theorize it should be acknowledged that they are only theories and not official supported by any information presented thus far.

Also the theory doesn't explain why when Goku spars with SSJ Gohan he can also hold back. Remember Gokus base should be 400-500x stronger than Gohans base and the SSJ form doesn't have great ki control so he should be able to hold but that much as SSJ against Gohan.

The Cell Games has you covered there. Remember when Goku and Gohan were walking around casually as mastered Super Saiyans, and quite obviously not even close to full power on a constant basis? They could control how much of SS's multiplier they used along with how much of their base power was being multiplied.

Also, it's never stated that regular SS doesn't have great Ki control, just not as good as SSB's. Combined with the above, one can make the inference that, since SSB has better Ki control than SS, a user could easily suppress their power level to various tiers of strength, both multiplication-wise AND base power-wise.

Wait what? We're playing hopscotch again.
I referenced FSSJ before as an example of very specific training Goku and Gohan had to go through to achieve its use. Trunks and Vegeta couldn't just do it after learning about it. It was something they specifically trained for over time. I wouldn't have a hard time believing that's the case for SSB but they went out of their way to state its fundamentally different in the ki application then SSJ. So why would the same ki control method instantly carry over? further if the skills are interchangabe it seems like they should be able to do a FSSJ x KK.

So to review,
-You state because they have shown ki control as FSSJ it stand to reason they should be able to do the same as SSB.
-The show states that SSJ and SSB are fundamentally different in terms of ki control, allowing them to do different things due to the difference of the forms.
The is no link from FSSJ to stating that SSB can manipulate down their ki output. We have already seen it doesn't carry over even in the same transformation branch.
Your assertion also implies that the FSSJ skill should transfer over to other SSJ forms so Gohan and Goku should also naturally have a FSSJ2/3 form as well however the show has not shown that. Any idea that that skill naturally transfers over to the other transformation forms is pure fan fiction and should not be spread as fact.

The difference is that SSB is SS with the power of SSG. It's literally the SS form using the power of SSG, with its potential being unlocked by learning how to not let one's Ki leak out.

We see multiple times that the transformation into SSB occurs by turning into a SS, then tapping into the power of SSG. Whilst nearly identical to regular SS, the form utilizes the power of SSG, and thus becomes stronger, can't be sensed normally, and has better Ki control. This isn't like SS2 or SS3 where the forms are a draining power-amplification extension of the original form, SSB is a direct step-up from SS using the exotic properties of God Ki and Whis's training.

If a normal SS can easily be suppressed to lower levels, and if SSB is literally just the form using SSG's power to improve in every way possible without the disadvantages, why isn't it a rational inference to make that its power could be suppressed similarly?

There is certainly sound deductive reasoning for this idea over Two-Base Theory.

[TheMikado]

The Cell Games has you covered there. Remember when Goku and Gohan were walking around casually as mastered Super Saiyans, and quite obviously not even close to full power on a constant basis? They could control how much of SS's multiplier they used along with how much of their base power was being multiplied.

Also, it's never stated that regular SS doesn't have great Ki control, just not as good as SSB's. Combined with the above, one can make the inference that, since SSB has better Ki control than SS, a user could easily suppress their power level to various tiers of strength, both multiplication-wise AND base power-wise.

Wait what? We're playing hopscotch again.
I referenced FSSJ before as an example of very specific training Goku and Gohan had to go through to achieve its use. Trunks and Vegeta couldn't just do it after learning about it. It was something they specifically trained for over time. I wouldn't have a hard time believing that's the case for SSB but they went out of their way to state its fundamentally different in the ki application then SSJ. So why would the same ki control method instantly carry over? further if the skills are interchangabe it seems like they should be able to do a FSSJ x KK.

So to review,
-You state because they have shown ki control as FSSJ it stand to reason they should be able to do the same as SSB.
-The show states that SSJ and SSB are fundamentally different in terms of ki control, allowing them to do different things due to the difference of the forms.
The is no link from FSSJ to stating that SSB can manipulate down their ki output. We have already seen it doesn't carry over even in the same transformation branch.
Your assertion also implies that the FSSJ skill should transfer over to other SSJ forms so Gohan and Goku should also naturally have a FSSJ2/3 form as well however the show has not shown that. Any idea that that skill naturally transfers over to the other transformation forms is pure fan fiction and should not be spread as fact.

The difference is that SSB is SS with the power of SSG. It's literally the SS form using the power of SSG, with its potential being unlocked by learning how to not let one's Ki leak out.

We see multiple times that the transformation into SSB occurs by turning into a SS, then tapping into the power of SSG. Whilst nearly identical to regular SS, the form utilizes the power of SSG, and thus becomes stronger, can't be sensed normally, and has better Ki control. This isn't like SS2 or SS3 where the forms are a draining power-amplification extension of the original form, SSB is a direct step-up from SS using the exotic properties of God Ki and Whis's training.

If a normal SS can easily be suppressed to lower levels, and if SSB is literally just the form using SSG's power to improve in every way possible without the disadvantages, why isn't it a rational inference to make that its power could be suppressed similarly?

There is certainly sound deductive reasoning for this idea over Two-Base Theory.

Ok first and foremost the two base theory is just a theory and always presented as such. It also cites multiple in universe reasons for this acknowledging its existence.

What you did just in the very last post was create some lore through jumping through hoops. You are justifying your made up lore with more made up lore. You just state that SSB is nearly identical to SSJ but then state multiply ways it's not. You're assuming something applies to it that never applies to other SSJ forms which is the transfer of the FSSJ skill. I think what I'm trying to get you to do is seperate the head canon from the factual presentation of the actual information. You aren't making the distinction. Half of what you stated is made up by yourself by combining factual information but you're presenting it all as fact and than using that to try and prove more lore you've created in your head. It doesn't work like that.

You have to seperate your own opinions from the actual facts before you can state what is and isn't true.

[TBMx]

I'm not watching anymore until the tournament begins. The sooner I can stop watching this hack written filler, the quicker I can start forgetting it ever happened.

[TheMikado]

I'm not watching anymore until the tournament begins. The sooner I can stop watching this hack written filler, the quicker I can start forgetting it ever happened.

Me too, I just need a break for a while. When Buu Kai came out I got sooo hyped watching week to week that I couldn't stand the wait between episodes anymore and actually got a funi sub.. I know I know. But I will at least have something to fill the wait. But anyway, it's not worth the aggravation I think the tournament should be interesting enough.

[Low Tone G]

The episode reminded me once again of EoZ Goku.

Couldn't Base Goku's strength there against Uub give an idea of where he stands now?

Nah he's way stronger now in base than he was in EoZ when he fought uub. Whenever he fights uub in DBS... he'll be leagues stronger than the Goku we saw at the end of Z.

In my view, Goku is way lower in base now... I'd put him on Fat Buu level, and Gohan-Buu level at SSJ. So in EoZ he could make some progress to reach Kid Buu's strength from DBZ.

So not really, his current performance shows he is not too overpowered in base.

[Bullza]

In my view, Goku is way lower in base now... I'd put him on Fat Buu level, and Gohan-Buu level at SSJ. So in EoZ he could make some progress to reach Kid Buu's strength from DBZ.

So not really, his current performance shows he is not too overpowered in base.

If you were to believe that Super Saiyan Goku and Super Saiyan Gohan were even based on the fight they had then I'd go as far as saying that Super Saiyan Goku was about as strong as Ultimate Gohan.

It's mostly an assumption but based on the Resurrection F saga I'd wonder if Gohan transforming into a Super Saiyan was a way of him bringing out the full power that he'd previously said he couldn't bring out in Base due to not training.

So if Full Power = Ultimate Gohan aka Base Gohan at the end of the Buu saga = Super Saiyan Gohan in the Resurrection F saga = Super Saiyan Goku then yeah.

From the looks of it due to the training with Piccolo then Gohan might be able to bring out all that power again but without having to transform this time.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Ok first and foremost the two base theory is just a theory and always presented as such. It also cites multiple in universe reasons for this acknowledging its existence.

What you did just in the very last post was create some lore through jumping through hoops. You are justifying your made up lore with more made up lore. You just state that SSB is nearly identical to SSJ but then state multiply ways it's not. You're assuming something applies to it that never applies to other SSJ forms which is the transfer of the FSSJ skill. I think what I'm trying to get you to do is seperate the head canon from the factual presentation of the actual information. You aren't making the distinction. Half of what you stated is made up by yourself by combining factual information but you're presenting it all as fact and than using that to try and prove more lore you've created in your head. It doesn't work like that.

You have to seperate your own opinions from the actual facts before you can state what is and isn't true.

The FACT IS that SSB is SS with the power of SSG.

The FACT IS that SS has little stamina issues and can have varying levels of power depending on suppression of the multiplier and/or base power.

The FACT IS that SSB is stronger and has better Ki control than its non-godly state.

The INFERENCE IS that because the regular state of SSB is just SS, improved in terms of Ki control and power using SSG's power, one's Ki "should" be able to be regulated easily to varying levels.

I admit that I made a mistake in not presenting my inference as just that, but you understand my point. If, say, Goku were to transform from a suppressed base state into a SSB with a suppressed multiplier based on the inferences above, then it would be possible to match much lower power levels, thus explaining why the form can be used so casually in everyday situations like baseball or provide a good spar for characters like Krillin.

[TheMikado]

Ok first and foremost the two base theory is just a theory and always presented as such. It also cites multiple in universe reasons for this acknowledging its existence.

What you did just in the very last post was create some lore through jumping through hoops. You are justifying your made up lore with more made up lore. You just state that SSB is nearly identical to SSJ but then state multiply ways it's not. You're assuming something applies to it that never applies to other SSJ forms which is the transfer of the FSSJ skill. I think what I'm trying to get you to do is seperate the head canon from the factual presentation of the actual information. You aren't making the distinction. Half of what you stated is made up by yourself by combining factual information but you're presenting it all as fact and than using that to try and prove more lore you've created in your head. It doesn't work like that.

You have to seperate your own opinions from the actual facts before you can state what is and isn't true.

The FACT IS that SSB is SS with the power of SSG.

The FACT IS that SS has little stamina issues and can have varying levels of power depending on suppression of the multiplier and/or base power.

The FACT IS that SSB is stronger and has better Ki control than its non-godly state.

The INFERENCE IS that because the regular state of SSB is just SS, improved in terms of Ki control and power using SSG's power, one's Ki "should" be able to be regulated easily to varying levels.

I admit that I made a mistake in not presenting my inference as just that, but you understand my point. If, say, Goku were to transform from a suppressed base state into a SSB with a suppressed multiplier based on the inferences above, then it would be possible to match much lower power levels, thus explaining why the form can be used so casually in everyday situations like baseball or provide a good spar for characters like Krillin.

Ok Let me break down your statements so that it you can see how the connections and inference do not follow.

The FACT IS that SS has little stamina issues and can have varying levels of power depending on suppression of the multiplier and/or base power.

First this premise is false. Only FSSJ has little stamina issue. Vegeta was, to our knowledge never shown to have a FSSJ state. FSSJ is a state derived from SSJ.
SSJ form itself is in fact stamina intensive and the regulations of its power output to minimum levels is never implied until training to achieve FSSJ was introduced.
You make a false assumption that SSJ automatically = FSSJ. A form and technique Vegeta has never been shown to have mastered.
Thus stating that the SSJ form in and of itself grants little stamina issues and power suppression is false. This has only been shown to be granted by the FSSJ state.

The FACT IS that SSB is SS with the power of SSG.

This is in fact a statement, however are no point does anything imply the are equals in both execution and function. In fact, the show goes out of its way multiple times to assert the differences and why skills and techniques used with one do not automatically transfer to the other. In the same way that bonding Hydrogen with Oxygen produces water, while bonding Hydrogen with Fluoride produces lighter than air gas, it would be incorrect to assume that the mixing of two different elements yields the same properties. This is especially true in this circumstance where the show explictly states the properties of SSB are different than SSJ. So to recap, the combination of the God ki and SSJ does not automatically retain the function of the original and the show states this very clearly for us. The assertion that this statements means SSJ functions identically to SSB is NOT implied. This is a statement of its composition rather than function. You cannot use the composition statement as the evidence, merely as a clue where evidence is absent. The issue is evidence is present that specifically states the function difference of SSB to SSJ. So you cannot use the composition statement as evidence of its function when we have actual functional statements.

The FACT IS that SSB is stronger and has better Ki control than its non-godly state.

Again, this is a fine statement of evidence to SSB's function, however it gives not context on what "ki control" actually means and what it does beyond stating this improved version facilitates the use of kaioken with SSB. You can't use a vague and non specific function to make it say whatever you want it do. In this context the only thing this better "ki control" is stated to do was grant the combination of those techniques.

You are attempting to prove the show states they can willingly suppress their Blue states far beyond even their base states based on the output rather than the inputs.
I.E. you assess a situation presented in the anime and the only reasonable explanation is the ability to have a superior suppression method in SSB. Then working backwards from this starting point you use statements as evidence that they have had this ability all along when, had the situation not been presented, the believe that this ability existed to this degree would also not exist.

So again, I am not claiming this is not the case, nor the fact that they do not have this ability. Rather, that it is NOT factually proven within the story itself that this ability exists and they are using it. The dots do not connect. The SSJ form does not automatically grant FSSJ abilities. That is something that must be trained. A composition statement about what something is, does not equal a function statement on how something works. And a vague name of a fiction function does not mean we can make up what abilities it actually grants and constitutes. A false equivalence would be saying something like "Superman possesses the ability to control gravity because his has the ability of flight". While that would make sense in our physical world and may be a valid explanation. Claiming it as fact due to some causal correlation is the fallacy.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I equate FPSS with SS, since the former is functionally no different from the latter besides the lack of stamina issues. I'm surprised you nitpicked that part, especially since the show has never made the distinction itself on any real basis. Seriously, why nitpick that one?

Second, SSB is factually a SS with the power of SSG. This is stated multiple times, and can be seen when the transformation is utilized; it's consistently portrayed as a Saiyan turning SS (which is functionally FPSS, but we call it just plain SS for simplicity's sake, don't nitpick that), and then that SS gaining the power of SSG.

Third, we do have an idea of what great Ki control is, as Elder Kai states that the regular SS form is too intensive/straining to be used with Kaio-ken, but its next level, SSB, isn't. Ergo, with better Ki control comes better control of Ki. And how is one's power level suppressed? By controlling Ki.

Using simple deductive reasoning, if suppression is based on controlling Ki, and SSB has great Ki control, it logically entails that it has great suppression capabilities.

[TheMikado]

Look, I'm done. I don't know what else to tell you. FSSJ is not SSJ. There is a distinctive difference. One requires mastery of a form and training. Its not automatically bestowed on every SSJ.
Those being the same is incorrect, but when your starting premise is faulty and you choose to stand by it there is nothing left to discuss. Your line of thinking is:
FSSJ = SSJ = SSJ+God ki = SSB = FSSB When nothing has been shown that to be a correct linking of thought.
The ki control is vague enough to mean anything and in and of itself means little about suppressing SSB output in the way people are implying where Goku visibly exerts effort but his mastery is so great he can simultaneous cap it and exert at the same time. This is a made up ability which has no basis in what is presented in the show.

Like I said. I'm done you win. Fundamentally we disagree at the FSSJ being equivalent to SSJ level so there's nothing further left to discuss.

[TBMx]

Goku said he didnt intend to use SSB, meaning 17 pushed him to it. So 17 > Saiyan Beyond God. 17 doesn't even have 2 hrs to spare from park ranging yet he got so strong from that, he held back against SSB. The people at Toei seemingly see this as a show for babies, yet fans are coming up with elaborate head canon to rationalize the anime equivalent of baa baa black sheep.

[Triggered Vegeta]

Goku said he didnt intend to use SSB, meaning 17 pushed him to it. So 17 > Saiyan Beyond God. 17 doesn't even have 2 hrs to spare from park ranging yet he got so strong from that, he held back against SSB. The people at Toei seemingly see this as a show for babies, yet fans are coming up with elaborate head canon to rationalize the anime equivalent of baa baa black sheep.

Yeah Imma stop defending this garbage series... God means nothing anymore, Toei ruined the concept... these the same people who had Olibu do well against Pikkon, but get stomped by Yamcha.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Goku said he didnt intend to use SSB, meaning 17 pushed him to it. So 17 > Saiyan Beyond God. 17 doesn't even have 2 hrs to spare from park ranging yet he got so strong from that, he held back against SSB. The people at Toei seemingly see this as a show for babies, yet fans are coming up with elaborate head canon to rationalize the anime equivalent of baa baa black sheep.

Honestly 17 is the only one I accept being so strong. There has been a long enough gap since we have seen him and with infinite stamina (assuming that remains) the training could be endless.

There is a difference between not leaving the island and training on the island.

[Bullza]

Aside from being stronger than Super Saiyan Goku whilst still holding back by an unknown amount I don't know how you could suggest any higher for him.

Being as we don't know how strong Super Saiyan Goku is supposed to be except for it being considerably weaker than Super Saiyan God then he could be anywhere.

[TheMikado]

Aside from being stronger than Super Saiyan Goku whilst still holding back by an unknown amount I don't know how you could suggest any higher for him.

Being as we don't know how strong Super Saiyan Goku is supposed to be except for it being considerably weaker than Super Saiyan God then he could be anywhere.

But the anime presents SSJ Goku as being around as strong as SSG.

[Lord Beerus]

Aside from being stronger than Super Saiyan Goku whilst still holding back by an unknown amount I don't know how you could suggest any higher for him.

Being as we don't know how strong Super Saiyan Goku is supposed to be except for it being considerably weaker than Super Saiyan God then he could be anywhere.

But the anime presents SSJ Goku as being around as strong as SSG.

That's only in the BOG arc. After that, the power of the Super Saiyan God expires and Goku has to train with Whis and has to learn how the utilise and tap into God ki again.