Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[buutenks]

Well, Dende said 17 got really strong and it would be bad if he would be an enemy. So I guess he is very very strong.

[Low Tone G]

In my view, Goku is way lower in base now... I'd put him on Fat Buu level, and Gohan-Buu level at SSJ. So in EoZ he could make some progress to reach Kid Buu's strength from DBZ.

So not really, his current performance shows he is not too overpowered in base.

If you were to believe that Super Saiyan Goku and Super Saiyan Gohan were even based on the fight they had then I'd go as far as saying that Super Saiyan Goku was about as strong as Ultimate Gohan.

It's mostly an assumption but based on the Resurrection F saga I'd wonder if Gohan transforming into a Super Saiyan was a way of him bringing out the full power that he'd previously said he couldn't bring out in Base due to not training.

So if Full Power = Ultimate Gohan aka Base Gohan at the end of the Buu saga = Super Saiyan Gohan in the Resurrection F saga = Super Saiyan Goku then yeah.

From the looks of it due to the training with Piccolo then Gohan might be able to bring out all that power again but without having to transform this time.

I'm not sure what you mean... After the FnF Arc Goku's base seems to be way lower for some reason, especially when he transformed SSJ against foes like Frost, and even into SSJ3 against Future Trunks...

I don't really know why did Goku and Vegeta choose to lower their bases after meeting Golden Frieza, but everything shows that their bases now are stuck in Goku's SSJ3's ballpark from the Buu saga. The Zen'o Exhibition match makes it even clearer that Base Goku is not above everthing we've seen before. Certainly not above SSJ Vegetto from the Buu saga.

[Speedster]

Lame writing and BS logic aside, Goku is indeed holding back. There is no question about it. By how much though? Probably this Arale episode (ep. 69) will help…
[spoiler][/spoiler]
As you can see against Arale, SSJB Goku had an initial beam clash which sort of ended in a draw. Then Goku could seemingly produce a Kamehameha that would be 100x stronger, meaning that in the initial clash he was holding back to only around 1% of his power. Given also his mini beam struggle with Kuririn and now again against #17, I would say that it is safe to say that SSJB Goku apparently holds back to around his opponent level, whatever that is or probably a little bit higher. If Arale was firing an attack of 1% of Blue so was SSJB Goku, if Kuririn was at 0.000001% of Blue so was SSJB Goku, if #17 was at 0.01% of Blue so was SSJB Goku. So it is really inconclusive at what level these guys really are because Goku just drops to their level.

What pisses me off is that he is using Blue for the sake of using it. His base alone or SSJ1 should had been more than enough for Kuririn and #17. I always considered that Goku holds back to train his skill and not rely on just overpowering his opponent. I would have no problem seeing him struggling in base. For Blue I could come up with a headcanon saying that "well during the tournament Goku will have to be in Blue as he will also be facing opponents like Jiren, Toppo and Hit who are at Blue level or even higher but at the same time he will have to hold back to not kill the other weaker opponents against whom he might also want to test his skill too". But instead I prefer to call BS because the show doesn't pretend this to be the case in the first place and it is just a headcanon excuse to cover up the lame writing and BS apparent power-ups of the side cast to make them look relevant again.

[TBMx]

Beerus saw Super Saiyan and heard about Super Saiyan God in a dream. Why didn't he dream about 17 instead if 17 is stronger than Saiyan beyond God and is able to force Goku to Blue, a form he didn't intend to use? Why didn't Whis bring up 17 at any point as a more worthy challenge than these weakling saiyans? What was even the point of Beerus waking up to go after SSG when he could have fought #17 just as well?

[MKJ]

I don't think that we really know what ssb is or isn't although I do believe that it is the only way that they access god ki. I always thought that the flame burning inside Goku was temporary and not permanent. How temporary no one knows. The Beerus dream could easily reflect Goku's overall evolution and not the one time fight. The story isn't over yet. The episode with Kuririn was not about the beam struggle. It was a combination of Goku testing Kuririn to see if he would collapse or stand tall when completely outclassed and Goku coming to a realization about what it will take to be successful in the tournament. I prefer this to the Z logic of I'm level 100 and your level 101 therefore I can't even put a scratch on you. The main issue with 17 if any is that some people want every little detail of how he got that strong(although we don't know how strong he is yet). That's why no one questions Goku's advancement because we have seen it first hand since DB because he is the main character. If you consider how much of his life has been dedicated to training and that he still wasn't at 17's level(never trained) at the beginning of the android saga then I don't see why it's hard to fathom that 17 "might" have some exponential gains when deciding to start training for the first time since he has a much greater head start power wise than Goku as a kid. Does his head start even matter? What gains can he have in the same time frame as a saiyan? We will never know. This is just food for thought and my two cents. I don't think he is ssb level. Once again it was only a test, but I have zero problem accepting that he could take down any level of yellow ss if they actually showed it that way although we will never know.

[Bullza]

I'm not sure what you mean... After the FnF Arc Goku's base seems to be way lower for some reason, especially when he transformed SSJ against foes like Frost, and even into SSJ3 against Future Trunks...

I'm saying I agree that they were made weaker following the Resurrection F saga. In that saga he was as strong, well stronger really, than Super Saiyan God Goku when he fought Beerus in Base form.

Now he doesn't appear to be as strong as Super Saiyan God even as a Super Saiyan 3 and him supposedly getting some significant gains in the Future Trunks saga.

How strong he is now is a mystery. He fought Gohan and they were about even, that is if you believe that Goku wasn't holding back.

So how strong is Gohan as a Super Saiyan? At best I'd say as strong as Ultimate Gohan making the current Super Saiyan Goku at best as strong as Ultimate Gohan as well.

Of course during the Universe 6 saga he was significantly weaker than he was now so certainly wouldn't be as strong as Ultimate Gohan back then and in Base form he would possibly be weaker than Piccolo.

[Fionordequester]

I'm going to repost this, since there's still a lot of intense debate in both this and the Episode 86 thread. I'm not saying I'm right in the analysis I drew up, but, I figure it's still a possibility to keep in mind.

HOW TO JUSTIFY #17 POTENTIALLY RIVALING GOKU: by Fionordequester

#17's strength actually makes sense, with some creative thinking. Think about it; most powerful humans seems to have a Power Level of about...10? I think? I think that's what Hercule had? And we can assume that #17 and #18 were fairly powerful as far as regular humans went before getting roboticized. Maybe they had a Power Level of 8 or so? They used to be gang leaders, so they probably did a fair bit of fighting.

So anyway, they get their cybernetics...and now they're suddenly trouncing Super Saiyans! FRICKEN SUPER SAIYANS! We don't know exactly how strong Vegeta was as a Super Saiyan, but let's just say his Power Level was 200,000,000. Just for the sake of argument. And then #18 had a Power Level of 220,000,000 and #17 had 250,000,000.

So take 240,000,000 and divide it by 8. THAT'S A FRICKEN 30,000,000x MULTIPLIER! That's how potent Gero's cybernetics would've had to be! So imagine taking that same multiplier and applying it to, say, Krillin instead! Imagine how ludicrously strong a post-Namek Krillin would be with THAT kind of multiplier!

So my point is this; #17 can still train the human parts of his body. And then his cybernetics would be multiplying whatever gains his human parts were making. So what if that 30,000,000x multiplier is applied to every extra point of Power Level that #17 gets? Ergo...

-------------------------------------

-If I get 5 Power Level points for eating Broccoli for 10 years, then #17 would get 150,000,000

-If I were to do as many push-ups as I could do for a year, and that gave me 2 Power Level points, then #17 would get 60,000,000.

-If I were to take up jogging, and that gave me 7 Power Level points after 7 years, then #17 would get 210,000,000.

-------------------------------------

So with all that in mind, is it really a surprise that #17 would be able to gain Saitama levels of strength progression? Some might question why Dr. Gero bothered with Cell if #17's potential was that absurd, but, I'd say there's a simple answer to that. #17 and #18 were rebellious; VERY rebellious, to the point that they killed Gero.
So naturally? Dr. Gero's going to want to have a safety measure, just in case #17 and #18 got too out of control.

[pacz360]

I'm going to repost this, since there's still a lot of intense debate in both this and the Episode 86 thread. I'm not saying I'm right in the analysis I drew up, but, I figure it's still a possibility to keep in mind.

HOW TO JUSTIFY #17 POTENTIALLY RIVALING GOKU: by Fionordequester

#17's strength actually makes sense, with some creative thinking. Think about it; most powerful humans seems to have a Power Level of about...10? I think? I think that's what Hercule had? And we can assume that #17 and #18 were fairly powerful as far as regular humans went before getting roboticized. Maybe they had a Power Level of 8 or so? They used to be gang leaders, so they probably did a fair bit of fighting.

So anyway, they get their cybernetics...and now they're suddenly trouncing Super Saiyans! FRICKEN SUPER SAIYANS! We don't know exactly how strong Vegeta was as a Super Saiyan, but let's just say his Power Level was 200,000,000. Just for the sake of argument. And then #18 had a Power Level of 220,000,000 and #17 had 250,000,000.

So take 240,000,000 and divide it by 8. THAT'S A FRICKEN 30,000,000x MULTIPLIER! That's how potent Gero's cybernetics would've had to be! So imagine taking that same multiplier and applying it to, say, Krillin instead! Imagine how ludicrously strong a post-Namek Krillin would be with THAT kind of multiplier!

So my point is this; #17 can still train the human parts of his body. And then his cybernetics would be multiplying whatever gains his human parts were making. So what if that 30,000,000x multiplier is applied to every extra point of Power Level that #17 gets? Ergo...

-------------------------------------

-If I get 5 Power Level points for eating Broccoli for 10 years, then #17 would get 150,000,000

-If I were to do as many push-ups as I could do for a year, and that gave me 2 Power Level points, then #17 would get 60,000,000.

-If I were to take up jogging, and that gave me 7 Power Level points after 7 years, then #17 would get 210,000,000.

-------------------------------------

So with all that in mind, is it really a surprise that #17 would be able to gain Saitama levels of strength progression? Some might question why Dr. Gero bothered with Cell if #17's potential was that absurd, but, I'd say there's a simple answer to that. #17 and #18 were rebellious; VERY rebellious, to the point that they killed Gero.
So naturally? Dr. Gero's going to want to have a safety measure, just in case #17 and #18 got too out of control.

Seems reasonable

[Ki Breaker]

So naturally? Dr. Gero's going to want to have a safety measure, just in case #17 and #18 got too out of control.

Seems reasonable

To not repeat myself
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=38164&p=1296464#p1296464

[Bullza]

I suppose this is worth posting here right?



Not sure how reliable that is or not but it'd be one more thing to confirm if it was. Ideally Vegito really should be stronger than Beerus or it just makes the Battle of God's saga look more bizarre.

[Legion]

I suppose this is worth posting here right?



Not sure how reliable that is or not but it'd be one more thing to confirm if it was. Ideally Vegito really should be stronger than Beerus or it just makes the Battle of God's saga look more bizarre.

In the manga, yes. But in the anime we have seen 17 deal with Goku SSJB etc. Power levels are different. Actually, i don't care anymore about power levels after these episodes

[SaiyanGod117]

I suppose this is worth posting here right?



Not sure how reliable that is or not but it'd be one more thing to confirm if it was. Ideally Vegito really should be stronger than Beerus or it just makes the Battle of God's saga look more bizarre.

How it should be.

[amuroray]

Anyone that suggusts that 17 equaling goku makes sense that you are being silly. It literally makes zero sense just adkit they are just bringing out ridiculous power ups for everyone that makes goku abd vegetas trails and training worthless in retrospect. They literally god training by whis in condition noone else has got which meabs thry should be miles ahead of everyone on thst alone.

[ZombieVito]

I suppose this is worth posting here right?



Not sure how reliable that is or not but it'd be one more thing to confirm if it was. Ideally Vegito really should be stronger than Beerus or it just makes the Battle of God's saga look more bizarre.

Holy shit.

Unless Merged Zamasu got considerably weaker after fighting Vegetto, that would mean Trunks surpassed Beerus with the Genkidama sword.

[Legion]

I suppose this is worth posting here right?



Not sure how reliable that is or not but it'd be one more thing to confirm if it was. Ideally Vegito really should be stronger than Beerus or it just makes the Battle of God's saga look more bizarre.

Holy shit.

Unless Merged Zamasu got considerably weaker after fighting Vegetto, that would mean Trunks surpassed Beerus with the Genkidama sword.

What? manga and anime are different Trunks does not have a new form in the manga and probably we'll never see Genkidama sword. All people in the manga are dead.

[Bullza]

Well the interesting thing is that Supreme Kai didn't say any such thing about Zamasu surpassing Beerus.

So it would go Super Saiyan Blue Vegito > Beerus > Zamasu

Zamasu didn't seem massively weaker than Vegito or anything so if Beerus is inbetween them then you could say that Beerus isn't really that far off from Super Saiyan Blue Vegito which would be useful in itself as it gives probably the best idea of how he stacks up.

Perhaps Champa is about on par with Zamasu almost.

[TheMikado]

I suppose this is worth posting here right?



Not sure how reliable that is or not but it'd be one more thing to confirm if it was. Ideally Vegito really should be stronger than Beerus or it just makes the Battle of God's saga look more bizarre.

Holy shit.

Unless Merged Zamasu got considerably weaker after fighting Vegetto, that would mean Trunks surpassed Beerus with the Genkidama sword.

What? manga and anime are different Trunks does not have a new form in the manga and probably we'll never see Genkidama sword. All people in the manga are dead.

Exactly, which is actually a bit better for me. Nothing worse than seeing all the kids and people give their life force to Trunks as he defeats Zamasu only to be blinked out of existence a few minutes later. At least by the time Zeno gets here there's nothing worth saving.

[ekrolo2]

Well the interesting thing is that Supreme Kai didn't say any such thing about Zamasu surpassing Beerus.

So it would go Super Saiyan Blue Vegito > Beerus > Zamasu

Zamasu didn't seem massively weaker than Vegito or anything so if Beerus is inbetween them then you could say that Beerus isn't really that far off from Super Saiyan Blue Vegito which would be useful in itself as it gives probably the best idea of how he stacks up.

Perhaps Champa is about on par with Zamasu almost.

Fused Zamasu probably isn't even that strong. There's a massive gap in-strength Black and Future Zamasu similar to the gap between Kaioshin & Kibito, ergo I don't think he's massively stronger than either Goku or Vegeta at their best in the manga or in the anime.

[Bullza]

Fused Zamasu probably isn't even that strong. There's a massive gap in-strength Black and Future Zamasu similar to the gap between Kaioshin & Kibito, ergo I don't think he's massively stronger than either Goku or Vegeta at their best in the manga or in the anime.

Well I haven't had a good look at the manga scans yet because they're out of order. Merged Zamasu didn't seem that strong at first if Goku could overpower him I agree.

After he did that Lighting of Absolution was it called? Then he significantly powered up. There's no such thing in the manga though.

[ZombieVito]

I suppose this is worth posting here right?



Not sure how reliable that is or not but it'd be one more thing to confirm if it was. Ideally Vegito really should be stronger than Beerus or it just makes the Battle of God's saga look more bizarre.

Holy shit.

Unless Merged Zamasu got considerably weaker after fighting Vegetto, that would mean Trunks surpassed Beerus with the Genkidama sword.

What? manga and anime are different Trunks does not have a new form in the manga and probably we'll never see Genkidama sword. All people in the manga are dead.

I see absolutely no reason to have Vegetto's power be different in the anime. In fact I see no reason to have anyone's power be different with the exception of transformations not seen in both mediums.