Unpopular DB opinions

[Michsi]

That's what I'm trying to get at. Kami knew, if he kept fighting it is possible that Yamcha COULD have won. Could, not will. Piccolo, maybe because he thought he was a badass, didn't treat Krillin the same way. Piccolo toyed with Krillin's attacks while Kami took Yamcha's Sokidan very seriously. It's too bad the fight was written more for Kami to build this character up at Yamcha's expense; however, I am sure if Yamcha took the fight seriously earlier on, we would have seen a match just like or maybe better than Krillin vs Piccolo.

True, Kami's strategy was to have his opponents severly underestimate him and have them lower their guard which worked perectly with Yamcha. Krillin on the other hand went full-out from the beginning because Piccolo didn't really hide he was powerful and dangerous and actually started the match with a new move instead of waiting to be forced to use it.

[Saiga]

Bullshit, Kami took him out with one blow. There's no way Yamcha could have won that fight. It seems like Kami decided to stop humiliating him after Yamcha showed he could land a hit on him.

I also disagree with Yamcha trying to get back at Vegeta. That would just be pathetic and I'd like to think he's a bigger man than that.

Remembered another unpopular opinion I had today: I don't believe that the humans have any more skill than anyone else in Dragon Ball just by being martial artists. This opinion has always baffled me and seemed like pure fanboyism.

[Michsi]

Bullshit, Kami took him out with one blow. There's no way Yamcha could have won that fight. It seems like Kami decided to stop humiliating him after Yamcha showed he could land a hit on him.

Considering how he immediately rushed towards him as if to finish him as fast as possible, it's obvious to me that he didn't want to take anymore risks. He could have easily just started to show of more of his true power had he really considered Yamcha had no chance whatsoever, since he seemed to like to play the mentor/teacher with him.

I also disagree with Yamcha trying to get back at Vegeta. That would just be pathetic and I'd like to think he's a bigger man than that.

I'm not saying he should actively "pick a fight" with him, I'm rather talking about something like Vegeta throwing his weight around like usual and being put in his place. I have no problem seeing Yamcha pull this off especially since he has long come to terms with being weaker than the others and Vegeta being one of the weakest in terms of character, emotional stability etc.

Remembered another unpopular opinion I had today: I don't believe that the humans have any more skill than anyone else in Dragon Ball just by being martial artists. This opinion has always baffled me and seemed like pure fanboyism.

I believe this comes simply from the fact that the moves they developed, like the Sokidan, the Kienzan, the Kikoho seemed way creative than what we have seen the saiyans (non-fusions) develope.

[Saiga]

Considering how he immediately rushed towards him as if to finish him as fast as possible, it's obvious to me that he didn't want to take anymore risks. He could have easily just started to show of more of his true power had he really considered Yamcha had no chance whatsoever, since he seemed to like to play the mentor/teacher with him.

The fact that he can instantly OHKO Yamcha like that shows that he completely outclassed him. It was painfully obvious that Yamcha just plain isn't a threat to him. It wouldn't be a risk at all for Kami to prolong that match, but he chose not to. Yamcha did have no chance whatsoever.

I'm not saying he should actively "pick a fight" with him, I'm rather talking about something like Vegeta throwing his weight around like usual and being put in his place. I have no problem seeing Yamcha pull this off especially since he has long come to terms with being weaker than the others and Vegeta being one of the weakest in terms of character, emotional stability etc.

Again, that still seems rather petty and Yamcha has shown that he doesn't really have much of a problem with him.

I believe this comes simply from the fact that the moves they developed, like the Sokidan, the Kienzan, the Kikoho seemed way creative than what we have seen the saiyans (non-fusions) develope.

I don't thing that says much about skill though. It just shows that they can be creative with their techniques. We've seen Freeza show equally creative techniques, and I'd argue that Vegeta's ability to create fire from ki or even Nappa's way of creating Volcanicesque eruptions is also a creative application of ki.

[Michsi]

The fact that he can instantly OHKO Yamcha like that shows that he completely outclassed him. It was painfully obvious that Yamcha just plain isn't a threat to him. It wouldn't be a risk at all for Kami to prolong that match, but he chose not to. Yamcha did have no chance whatsoever.

He instantly KO'ed him because he took the fight seriously now. Of course Kami is way stronger than him and Yamcha had close to no chance, but you have to think why Kami suddenly chose to rush things like did after getting hit just once, when he seemed to like to play around in the beginning. This was a tournament match, Yamcha didn't necessarily have to overpower him to win. Kami's mood completely changed and to me it was jus as obvious that he did this be cause he realized the underestimation went both ways. He was just being careful since there was a lot more at stake than him just loosing the round, but it all but shows he did recognize Yamcah as a possible threat.

Again, that still seems rather petty and Yamcha has shown that he doesn't really have much of a problem with him.

It would only seem petty if Yamcha starts it, which as I already said, isn't what I have in mind. Frankly I could rather see Vegeta picking on him first. You don't have to have a problem with someone to want to tell them off if they're acting up.

I don't thing that says much about skill though. It just shows that they can be creative with their techniques. We've seen Freeza show equally creative techniques, and I'd argue that Vegeta's ability to create fire from ki or even Nappa's way of creating Volcanicesque eruptions is also a creative application of ki.

Tbh, I think the humans were compared to saiyans, because we haven't seen enough of other races to say how skilled they are/are not. But nothing that intersting comes up when I think about Freeza.
As for Vegeta creating fire form ki, Gohan was able to that after 6 months in the wild and absolutely no formal training whatsoever so it seems to anything but special. Just like Nappa, it was just an explosive blast, like pretty everthing else we see from saiyans.

[Saiga]

He instantly KO'ed him because he took the fight seriously now. Of course Kami is way stronger than him and Yamcha had close to no chance, but you have to think why Kami suddenly chose to rush things like did after getting hit just once, when he seemed to like to play around in the beginning. This was a tournament match, Yamcha didn't necessarily have to overpower him to win. Kami's mood completely changed and to me it was jus as obvious that he did this be cause he realized the underestimation went both ways. He was just being careful since there was a lot more at stake than him just loosing the round, but it all but shows he did recognize Yamcah as a possible threat.

I don't think it was to do with treating Yamcha as a threat, but that Kami did the honourable thing when Yamcha hit him instead of continuing the humiliation. Yamcha couldn't knock Kami out with the Sokidan, and Yamcha admitted if he couldn't manage that much then he had no chance of winning. Kami ended the match because he was impressed by Yamcha's attack, not threatened by it. I think that's an important distinction to make.

It would only seem petty if Yamcha starts it, which as I already said, isn't what I have in mind. Frankly I could rather see Vegeta picking on him first. You don't have to have a problem with someone to want to tell them off if they're acting up.

Vegeta tends to ignore when people tell him off for doing selfish shit, so I don't see how that would be getting back at him for Yamcha. When I read you saying "win one over" I thought you meant doing something to humiliate him.

Tbh, I think the humans were compared to saiyans, because we haven't seen enough of other races to say how skilled they are/are not. But nothing that intersting comes up when I think about Freeza.
As for Vegeta creating fire form ki, Gohan was able to that after 6 months in the wild and absolutely no formal training whatsoever so it seems to anything but special. Just like Nappa, it was just an explosive blast, like pretty everthing else we see from saiyans.

Ooh, I totally forgot about Gohan using the fire. But still, I didn't think it would be difficult to do, just creative to come up with it. After all, the Kienzan is copied really easily by Vegeta moments after he first saw it, so I don't think there is much difficulty in it and therefore not much skill required. And I think Nappa's technique is more than the typical ki blast. Rather than created a ball/beam/etc of ki and throwing it at the target to explode, he creates a remote detonation where he chooses. I'd say that's creative.

None of that seems to translate to martial arts skill anyway, hence why I find the "Earthling's superior skill" an odd thing to claim.

[Olympian]

While I don`t agree with Yamucha being considerable stronger than Kuririn for most of the series, I don`t agree with the contrary feeling either.

He got completely thrashed by the holding back Ten, who was able to deflect his Kamehameha with ease and effortlessly counter his attacks

I don`t think a cliffhanger of Ten using Kiai (a technique never seen before) against the Kamehameha merits any kind of raw ease. Ten was obviously holding back a bit, but what some seem to be forgetting is that Kuririn went against someone weaker than Ten and was on the verge of factually losing the match if not for tricking Chaoutzu. Yamucha taught himself to master Kamehameha but while Kuririn said "if he can do it, so can I" we all saw that not only he failed the first pair of attempts, when he did do it, it was too weak to knock his opponent off the ring.

Yamucha, I believe, definatly looked the stronger of the two in the 22nd Bodukai, and that is taking in account that when the 21rst Bodukai happened, Yamucha unlike Kuririn, had zero training with Roshi. So he made quite the big jump with half the training time that Kuririn had. While Ten held back to an extent (not using Kikoho, for example) his compliments to Yamucha spoke too well of his opponent for having it been too easy.

Kurilin also surprised Piccolo Jr with his own techniques, and we know Piccolo Jr is a lot stronger than Kami. He impressed everyone there, Yamcha... not so much. And the Sokidan has got nothing on the Kienzan

They both hit the opponents only once, Kuririn with a punch, Yamucha with the Sokidan. The Sokidan seemed to surprise more, since it looked like Kami was almost certainly either momentarily knocked off his breath or briefly out, to the point that almost everyone (from Roshi to Tenshinhan) were claiming victory after the fact, whereas with Kuririn it was part of his set up to catch Piccolo off guard and try to follow through, but couldn`t.

I don`t think the manga shows a major discrepance between Kami and Piccolo per-se. Piccolo would likely hit harder if enraged but Kami wasn`t using his body either, he did used the Mafuma, but was with the porpuse to trap Piccolo again forever.

I don't think it was to do with treating Yamcha as a threat, but that Kami did the honourable thing when Yamcha hit him instead of continuing the humiliation. Yamcha couldn't knock Kami out with the Sokidan, and Yamcha admitted if he couldn't manage that much then he had no chance of winning. Kami ended the match because he was impressed by Yamcha's attack, not threatened by it. I think that's an important distinction to make.

It actually looked like he briefly did. It`s clear Yamucha was not up to the task, but a number of reasons can be pointed out, from Kami chosing to end an affair that had already determined the victor, from not wanting to have the chance of harming the body of the host any more before his big fight with Piccolo. While I agree Kami is obviously noble at heart, his clear concern over the body he was using should not be overlooked.

Kurilin defeated all the Saibaimen in a single attack. Yamcha hasn't shown any kind of technique that could do that

A bit of apples and oranges. Kuririn was suppose to have raised his PL to the max in that one single attack, Yamucha didn`t.

The official power levels for those two were 1770 and 1480 respectively, quite a noticeable gap

Where in the manga is Yamucha`s PL ever given in that arc, thought? The Dai probably based the base PL`s with the same kind of difference of the ones given before the arc, but who is to say it stayed the same?

That's underestimating the hidden potential unlocking. Kurilin's power sky-rocketed to over 10,000 (more than 5x his Saiyan arc battle power) and he was later confused for Zarbon based on the size of his ki (who was 20,000+) by Vegeta and also capable of tangling with Ginyu!Goku at 23,000. Vegeta states his powers have been steadily rising the whole time, and an official guide puts Kurilin at 75,000 because of this! We don't know if the unlocking raised his potential more than that, but he's already got a massive lead on Yamcha

I agree, in this arc Kuririn was clearly the better. He had to be, in fact, to survive those encounters.

Yeah that's... filler. In filler, Kurilin fought Imperfect Cell.

Now I am imagining Yamucha kicking Imperfect Cell in the head too.

[Saiga]

Kurilin never failed to produce a Kamehameha, so I don't know what you're talking about. And his Kamehameha did respectable damage for one made up on the spot.

And there is definitely a fair discrepancy between Kami and Piccolo in the manga, as Kami was too weak to beat him and had to resort to the Mafuba, which also failed, and it took everything Goku had to bring Piccolo down. Kurilin was able to sit up after a hit that Piccolo thought would kill him, while Yamcha was taken out by a single strike from Kami who I highly doubt would be using enough force to consider it a killing blow. Kurilin definitely put in a better showing than Yamcha at the 23rd.

I don't find Yamcha's performance at the 22nd Budokai impressive at all - he was schooled by Tenshinhan, and Tenshinhan held back more than just not using his Kikoho, he held back his strength as well just as Goku was.

The Saiyan arc battle powers, both manga and Daizenshuu, clearly show Kurilin as being Yamcha's superior. And as I said, Yamcha has never shown a technique that could take out three of the Saibaimen simultaneously, so there's no proof or evidence that he could do so just because he beat one of them in a one-on-one fight.

[Michsi]

I don't think it was to do with treating Yamcha as a threat, but that Kami did the honourable thing when Yamcha hit him instead of continuing the humiliation. Yamcha couldn't knock Kami out with the Sokidan, and Yamcha admitted if he couldn't manage that much then he had no chance of winning. Kami ended the match because he was impressed by Yamcha's attack, not threatened by it. I think that's an important distinction to make.

Kami was acting the mentor, telling him what he was doing wrong and one of things he critisized about Yamcha was that he had underestimated his opponent becaused he looked and acted silly and I find funny if that So no, Kami wasn't playing around to humiliate Yamcha, he was acting like a teacher , same as Roshi did with Tenshinhan. If it was just about being impressed, he would have just said so or maybe waited and see if he could manage another move, because if Kami was that confident that Yamcha stood no chance there would have been no reason to stop the fight there. Given him a chance to show a better performance would have been a way more honourable way. I read the scene again and it seems pretty obvious to me by his stern expresion when he is attacking Yamcha that being honourable was not what Kami had in mind .

Vegeta tends to ignore when people tell him off for doing selfish shit, so I don't see how that would be getting back at him for Yamcha. When I read you saying "win one over" I thought you meant doing something to humiliate him.

I doubt he would ignore a well placed and deserved jab, which is one the things I was thinking about. It can be humiliating depending the scenario though that's not really what I'm looking for. There are numerous ways you can "win one over" someone.

Ooh, I totally forgot about Gohan using the fire. But still, I didn't think it would be difficult to do, just creative to come up with it. After all, the Kienzan is copied really easily by Vegeta moments after he first saw it, so I don't think there is much difficulty in it and therefore not much skill required. And I think Nappa's technique is more than the typical ki blast. Rather than created a ball/beam/etc of ki and throwing it at the target to explode, he creates a remote detonation where he chooses. I'd say that's creative.

None of that seems to translate to martial arts skill anyway, hence why I find the "Earthling's superior skill" an odd thing to claim.

How is ki manipulation and more than that, creative ki manipulation, not a sign of skill?
I could actually go so far as to say that if Vegeta and Krillin were of equal strength in the saiyan saga, Krillin could give Vegeta a run for his money with the Kienzan, the Taiyo Ken and his abbility to change and read ki better etc.
Of course, I consider Goku a special case so that doesn't really apply to him.

[Saiga]

Kami was acting the mentor, telling him what he was doing wrong and one of things he critisized about Yamcha was that he had underestimated his opponent becaused he looked and acted silly and I find funny if that So no, Kami wasn't playing around to humiliate Yamcha, he was acting like a teacher , same as Roshi did with Tenshinhan. If it was just about being impressed, he would have just said so or maybe waited and see if he could manage another move, because if Kami was that confident that Yamcha stood no chance there would have been no reason to stop the fight there. Given him a chance to show a better performance would have been a way more honourable way. I read the scene again and it seems pretty obvious to me by his stern expresion when he is attacking Yamcha that being honourable was not what Kami had in mind.

He wasn't playing around to humiliate Yamcha, but to teach him a lesson. It's just that the lesson was pretty humiliating for Yamcha. And immediately after KO'ing him he commended Yamcha's Sokidan, so it seemed clear to me that was what it was about.

How is ki manipulation and more than that, creative ki manipulation, not a sign of skill?
I could actually go so far as to say that if Vegeta and Krillin were of equal strength in the saiyan saga, Krillin could give Vegeta a run for his money with the Kienzan, the Taiyo Ken and his abbility to change and read ki better etc.
Of course, I consider Goku a special case so that doesn't really apply to him.

Well because it seems to come easy to most people. Vegeta was able to reproduce the Kienzan while half dead and only having seen it once, does that make him more skilled than Kurilin? I don't think it's linked to skill the same way people are suggesting. I'm sure it takes more skill to use an attack with special properties over a generic ki attack, but it doesn't seem too difficult to do anyway. So I don't see how that speaks for the human's skill.

[Olympian]

Kurilin never failed to produce a Kamehameha, so I don't know what you're talking about.

He outright failed his initial attempts. We are talking about someone with double the Ki training (in terms of years) that Yamucha had at that point, from Roshi.

And his Kamehameha did respectable damage for one made up on the spot.

It failed to suceed in what it set out to do even with a point blank connection. Roshi remarks that.

And there is definitely a fair discrepancy between Kami and Piccolo in the manga, as Kami was too weak to beat him and had to resort to the Mafuba, which also failed, and it took everything Goku had to bring Piccolo down

Kami was using a weaker body than Piccolo`s. True, he would still be physically weaker give his age in comparasion with the younger Piccolo, but his gambit in hosting a human was to get closer to Piccolo without him knowing who he was. In terms of direct power, I know Kami was the weakest of the two. I just don`t agree with the gap being that great.

Kurilin was able to sit up after a hit that Piccolo thought would kill him, while Yamcha was taken out by a single strike from Kami who I highly doubt would be using enough force to consider it a killing blow. Kurilin definitely put in a better showing than Yamcha at the 23rd.

Kuririn did took that last hit better, but on the other hand, Kuririn saw that Piccolo was clearly still in the game, whereas Yamucha, as well as Roshi and Tenshinhan were screaming victory after the Sokidan hit, so Kuririn by all rights, should be better prepared than Yamucha was. There is also the fact that we don`t know how "hard" the punch was. Piccolo believed Kuririn was dead, but he also believed humans were soft weaklings.

They`r performances, nuance asides, were too similar for me to believe one had a considerable edge over the other.

I don't find Yamcha's performance at the 22nd Budokai impressive at all - he was schooled by Tenshinhan, and Tenshinhan held back more than just not using his Kikoho, he held back his strength as well just as Goku was.

And what to say of Kuririn against Chaotzu then, with that in mind? Even less impressive?

The Saiyan arc battle powers, both manga and Daizenshuu, clearly show Kurilin as being Yamcha's superior.

Where in the manga was Yamucha`s PL given in that arc?

And as I said, Yamcha has never shown a technique that could take out three of the Saibaimen simultaneously, so there's no proof or evidence that he could do so just because he beat one of them in a one-on-one fight.

You are still talking of apples and oranges, Yamucha never resorted to a single attack that was aimed at more than one Saibamen. Kuririn did, with the manga making clear in that scene that Kuririn was pushing his PL to the max in that one attack.

You are trying to compare Yamucha never pushing over his base (as far as we were told) against one Saibamen with Kuririn doing just that to kill 3 out of 4.

[Michsi]

He wasn't playing around to humiliate Yamcha, but to teach him a lesson. It's just that the lesson was pretty humiliating for Yamcha. And immediately after KO'ing him he commended Yamcha's Sokidan, so it seemed clear to me that was what it was about.

Yes, he commentted after the was safely the victor.

Well because it seems to come easy to most people. Vegeta was able to reproduce the Kienzan while half dead and only having seen it once, does that make him more skilled than Kurilin? I don't think it's linked to skill the same way people are suggesting. I'm sure it takes more skill to use an attack with special properties over a generic ki attack, but it doesn't seem too difficult to do anyway. So I don't see how that speaks for the human's skill.

No, it means he is good at copying techniques , just like Goku seems to be ( monkey see, monkey do seems like an appropriate saying) which is perhaps another type of skill, but not quiet on par with actually comming up new inventive techniques. This is what I meant. And I'm not necessarily talking about the techniques themselves, but about the humans being shown to be able to develope such techniques compared to the saiyans who do no such thing throughout the entire course of the story (aside from the fusions) At least none that i recall.

[Saiga]

He outright failed his initial attempts. We are talking about someone with double the Ki training (in terms of years) that Yamucha had at that point, from Roshi.

No he didn't. And Yamcha had trained to use the Kamehameha over the time skip, Kurilin didn't.

It failed to suceed in what it set out to do even with a point blank connection. Roshi remarks that.

All Roshi noted is that if it was a properly trained Kamehameha Kurilin would have ended the match there. Really, he was praising Kurilin's strategy, not calling his Kamehameha a failure.

Kuririn did took that last hit better, but on the other hand, Kuririn saw that Piccolo was clearly still in the game, whereas Yamucha, as well as Roshi and Tenshinhan were screaming victory after the Sokidan hit, so Kuririn by all rights, should be better prepared than Yamucha was. There is also the fact that we don`t know how "hard" the punch was. Piccolo believed Kuririn was dead, but he also believed humans were soft weaklings.

Piccolo had already admitted that Kurilin was not a weakling before that, when he said that he would start to use his real power against Kurilin.

They`r performances, nuance asides, were too similar for me to believe one had a cosniderable edge over the other.

On there own maybe it's not enough to draw conclusions, but the performances backed up by the power levels given are pretty conclusive to me.

And what to say of Kuririn against Chaotzu then, with that in mind? Even less impressive?

Kurilin won that fight.

Where in the manga was Yamucha`s PL given in that arc?

After Raditz's death. Kurilin was at 206 and Yamcha at 177.

You are still talking of apples and oranges, Yamucha never resorted to a single attack that was aimed at more than one Saibamen. Kuririn did, with the manga making clear in that scene that Kuririn was pushing his PL to the max in that one attack.

I'm aware of that, but it's really not apples and oranges. Kurilin beat them because he developed a powerful attack that could wipe them out at once. Yamcha has never shown any kind of technique like that, so we don't know if he could do it or not.

You are trying to compare Yamucha never pushing over his base (as far as we were told) against one Saibamen with Kuririn doing just that to kill 3 out of 4.

You don't push over your base in melee combat, not from what we've seen. Ki attacks can raise someone's power level above their base because the ki attacks have their own scouter reading. And all I'm really saying is that Yamcha beating a Saibaiman doesn't mean he could beat all of them.

[Olympian]

No he didn't. And Yamcha had trained to use the Kamehameha over the time skip, Kurilin didn't.

He tried to perform the kamehameha wave, and couldn`t. It wasn`t one time or two until he got it right, and the one wave he did was weaker than required.

Did Yamucha trained for it? Almost obviously, although it is weird how his trainer didn`t knew he could do it, which he should have unless Yamucha was training alone elsewhere. Even Kuririn`s reaction reads as weird "him?". I think Kuririn didn`t believed anyone save Roshi or Goku could get it right if with six years of training under the old master he still couldn`t do it. The reason why Yamucha looked better is because with 3 less years, he fought a stronger foe than Chaotzu.

All Roshi noted is that if it was a properly trained Kamehameha Kurilin would have ended the match there. Really, he was praising Kurilin's strategy, not calling his Kamehameha a failure.

His strategy was fine, his kamehameha wasn`t. I don`t see why is that a big deal. What Roshi noted was exactly that, his Wave wasn`t strong as it should have been if he had mastered it.

Piccolo had already admitted that Kurilin was not a weakling before that, when he said that he would start to use his real power against Kurilin.

That was in the same sequence that ended with the punch, wasn`t it?

On there own maybe it's not enough to draw conclusions, but the performances backed up by the power levels given are pretty conclusive to me.

Likewise. One good hit against, one hit down and either surprised people by being either the first human after Ten/Chaotzu to show he could do the air dance or the first character to show a controlled long range Ki attack.

Kurilin won that fight.

Yes, he did. By exploiting something that had nothing to do with PLs.

After Raditz's death. Kurilin was at 206 and Yamcha at 177.

I guess I should have said "chapters" instead of arcs. Past the kami training, Yamucha`s PL was not given.

You don't push over your base in melee combat, not from what we've seen. Ki attacks can raise someone's power level above their base because the ki attacks have their own scouter reading. And all I'm really saying is that Yamcha beating a Saibaiman doesn't mean he could beat all of them.

I am simply pointing out is that the comparasion doesn`t work exactly because what both did is of a different nature. Yamucha only did what was necessary to beat one Saibamen. Whereas he could kill each one of them like he believed he could, or even all in one single attack (is that even a requirement?) is not really the debate. The point is, Kuririn doesn`t get to be easily stronger at all at this point just because he pushed himself higher to do one attack whether Yamucha didn`t had to, because the situation of his confrontation was different.

I am not debating against Kuririn being above Yamucha, mind you, just the notion he was easily stronger and in every single arc.

[penguintruth]

Not sure if this is an unpopular opinion or not, but I really liked Aya Hirano's Dende, stunt casting or no. In fact, I like it as much as Tomiko Suzuki's.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I think he was purely thinking with his dick then. He was reluctant about deactivating #18 with the remote control, and there was a little thought bubble which showed #18's kiss, and rather than, I dunno, save it for later deactivate her and then destroy the remote (if that works)/hide her somewhere, he fucking destroyed the remote that Blooma had worked so hard to create. What a kick in the crotch that is.

I won't deny he wasn't; I just refuse to believe he destroyed the remote because he was horny. He knew #18 would have no idea what just happened, so trying to gain anything from her by doing that would be pointless- only #18 somehow asserts that he could have destroyed her with the device.

You'd be amazed at the kind of things men do for attractive women, even if there's, like, no chance of them getting some. It wasn't that he was necessarily trying to gain something from her, but, being the sexually frustrated virgin that he is, he developed a crush on her just from one teasing kiss.

He didn't love her or have any romantic feelings for her. Kuririn had lived his entire life shrouded in training, so he wouldn't ever have had time to really fraternise with the opposite sex. So when he gets his first real contact with a woman, regardless of her beating up his friends, he latched onto her and couldn't shake such an insignificant event from his head.

So yeah, in a nutshell, he was horny, because Toriyama's shit at writing love. I never saw the need for him cramming in yet another random relationship. With Gokuu and Chi-Chi, it was understandable, as it provided comedy (for the ridiculous set of circumstances that led to their marriage, as well as how Chi-Chi rapidly changed when she became a stern mother coaching her child towards becoming a smart scholar) and, after the time-skip, would show how much Gokuu had grown when he introduced his son Gohan.

With Bulma and Vegeta, it was required for Trunks, the second Super Saiyan who'd seemingly shown up out of nowhere, but was from the future. With Kuririn and #18, it seemed as if Toriyama just wanted to throw the guy a bone...and that's it. How come Yamcha (Toriyama's serial butt-monkey) didn't get that treatment (dumped by fucking Blooma for no real reason - don't give me that "playboy" bullshit), and why couldn't Kuririn's girlfriend be a normal girl, like Videl? And #18 just felt really out of place in the Boo arc and, apart from her fight with Goten and Trunks, she did fuck all, just like everyone else who weren't Super Saiyans (or Piccolo, given that he slid well into the mentor role for Goten and Trunks, and provided some amusing scenes as he tried to handle Gotenks, whose attitude was the polar opposite to his).

I find Scott McNeil overrated...

Agreed. I mean, he's a good Piccolo, but I don't think he was great as people make out and I often felt that his voice sounded too low and was that of an unnatural whisper. I much prefer Sabat's Piccolo in Kai.

[Olympian]

Even if you could argue that Yamcha is stronger then Krillin(which I disagree with), Krillin is still the bigger man. Through thick and thin, Krillin stood by Goku's side all the way to the end. Yamcha called it quits the second he went toe to toe with the Androids. Hell I'd argue Krillin is one of the bravest fighters in the whole series.

Hum, every fighter in the manga save maybe Goku and Piccolo have shown signs of fear. Even vegeta. I have read posts (not here) outright bashing Yamucha and Ten for looking afraid when Freeza was about to return to Earth and chalk them up as wimps, conveniently forgetting that the characters who were now experiencing awe of Freeza`s power were exactly the ones who weren`t there in Namek, like the ones who were (Vegeta, Kuririn, Gohan) who likewise felt helpless at first before the idea of having to face him.

Still, did they ran off? No. Yamucha`s line "and here I go back again when I just came back" (not an exact quote) never read to me as wimp talk, it`s clearly an honest assertion of what would happen. He would die, like the whole rest of them. An assertion backed up by Vegeta, no less.

[Michsi]

One could even argue that if being brave means doing what you are afraid to do , then Krillin and Yamcha are one most bravest characters, because they did go back to the front line even long after they were outclassed.

[Lord Eeyore Haw-Haw]

I kinda wanted to stay out of the Yumcha-Kurilin debate here, but I just wanna add in on the point about Yumcha basically "giving up" after experience with Freeza and the Man-Made Beings (Jinzouningen). Couldn't you look at it as more a case of Yumcha just admitting that he really was just outclassed?

And I'm going straight into "reading way too much" territory, with Toriyama's style, but could we not argue that perhaps Yumcha's so-called fear and generally all his "I don't really wanna get involved with these fights any more" come more out of something akin to post-traumatic stress disorder, or just plain old shell shock? He has DIED after all. Yeah, guys like Gokuu and Vegeeta shrug it off, because for one thing, they have a general "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger" thing in their favour, and when they do die, it's usually no skin off their nose, because they're born fighters who are damn near programmed to go into fights against people too great for them, for the thrill. They're essentially the sort who'd go sky-diving, to get off on the sheer adrenaline of it all.

Yumcha, I feel, really liked fighting for the fighting's sake, the martial arts aspect. He likes getting a challenge, fine enough, but he doesn't like the whole death-match aspects of it, and remember, he's only human. He doesn't have all the advantages the greater fighters have. When he loses an arm or something, he's not gonna regenerate it like Piccolo. When he's beaten to near death, he ain't gonna come back stronger than ever.

But back to where I was originally going with this. What if Yumcha got really traumatised by the whole death thing? It can't be a fun experience, to go from a guy who generally could fight okay, and was only really having to be concerned with "Am I gonna lose, in a tournament" as opposed to "Am I even gonna make it out alive this time?" Yes, he was more than ready to leap into the fray, with things like Great Demon King Piccolo and even the Saiyans, but he hadn't actually DIED yet. The most he'd had was a broken leg, and the mere THREAT of death. Going through it must have been a whole different thing. Knowing that he was way over his head and could be taken out just like that.

He was the most undignified death in the Saiyan arc, taken out because he was off-guard and not paying attention, and then blown up by a suicide attack. Tenshinhan and Jiaozi went out as a "I'm going out and taking you with me" thing, and Piccolo sacrificed himself by jumping in the way of an attack, fully knowing the consequences. Yumcha had no idea he was gonna suddenly get taken out. Having it shown to you, how insignificant you are, and how easily you can have it all taken away must be harrowing, despite how he acted. Hey, he got lucky and got his body, so that's a nice pay-off, and he could be wished back. But after that, they had no idea they would eventually all be able to brought back multiple times. All Yumcha knew when Freeza was coming was that someone who gave Son freaking Gokuu a rough time and nearly got HIM killed was coming to Earth, and it was just up to the guys who couldn't quite make it up to that level. Vegeeta and Piccolo were probably the only two who could last more than a few seconds against Freeza in serious fighting. That must have shaken him up a fair bit, to know that as soon as he got to be alive again, it was all gonna be taken away again, in a flash, and that this time, there was no foreseeable way of coming back.

This then gets compounded by the fact that the first thing that happens to him, when the Man-Made Beings show up, is that he gets taken out easily, is freaking impaled by a bare hand, and that for all he knew in those last seconds of consciousness, that it was all over for him, yet again, and that he was not gonna ever come back.

Not having experienced any near-death experiences, I wouldn't be able to vouch, but that's got to weigh heavily on someone, especially someone like Yumcha who must know without any shadow of a doubt that he's no longer in "fighting for fun and glory" territory, and is just way in over his head.

Phew, I didn't think I was gonna ramble that long in defence of Yumcha, but then again, I've always actually liked Yumcha.

Now in argument to my own point... And undercutting my own argument, in just one move...

Kurilin's pretty much in the same boat... And yet he hung about for a little more than Yumcha. That said, I recently looked over the Boo stuff, and Kurilin was all set to get out of there when Babiddy and Dabra killed off Spopovich and Yamu, hardly needing to be told twice by Gokuu. And the only thing that makes Kurilin truly that much braver than Yumcha is the fact that he leapt out to attack Boo before chocolate genocide happened at God's place, despite knowing how outclassed he was, to buy time for everyone else. And that was filler in the anime, since we don't actually see it happen in the manga.

In summary, I guess what I want to say is that you can argue that, yes, Kurilin is braver than Yumcha for doing what he must despite being afraid and knowing he was outclassed, but you can also argue that Yumcha is braver for being able to admit that he just can't cut it, and knows when he should give up.

(Plus, filler let him shine a little bit, with the classic "We're all gonna help Gohan against Cell". At least they threw him a bone there.)

[Attitudefan]

Thanks Olympian, you basically said what I wanted to. In the 22nd Ten. Budokai, Krillin was having lots of trouble with Chaotzu, Yamcha I am sure, would have not. While Ten did not go full out right away, he still had a tough time with Yamcha and was fairly impressed. He never thought Krillin was stronger, he thought Yamcha was until after he saw the fight with Goku. We never hear him state, "oh, Yamcha lost to me and seemed the strongest, no, Chaotzu lost so, therefore, Krillin should be the strongest!" Again, Krillin was not as experianced with ki unlike Yamcha! Yamcha was way superior to Krillin not around the same level. Krillin was more of a strategist because he was the weakest link out of the group. He had to use tactics to take out his opponents instead of power.

Considering how he immediately rushed towards him as if to finish him as fast as possible, it's obvious to me that he didn't want to take anymore risks. He could have easily just started to show of more of his true power had he really considered Yamcha had no chance whatsoever, since he seemed to like to play the mentor/teacher with him.

See, again, most thought Yamcha was the victor. Kami remarked how good his Sokidan was after the match. Yes, Yamcha could have won without power by forcing Kami out of the ring. The Sokidan could have done that to Kami by hitting him by surprise. Kami got serious and fairly angry because he had to win! If Yamcha was weak, he wouldn't have been afraid to let the 'lesson' keep going on and slowly power up to KO Yamcha. When Piccolo hit Krillin, he had a smile on his face, not a sense of worry.

He instantly KO'ed him because he took the fight seriously now. Of course Kami is way stronger than him and Yamcha had close to no chance, but you have to think why Kami suddenly chose to rush things like did after getting hit just once, when he seemed to like to play around in the beginning. This was a tournament match, Yamcha didn't necessarily have to overpower him to win. Kami's mood completely changed and to me it was jus as obvious that he did this be cause he realized the underestimation went both ways. He was just being careful since there was a lot more at stake than him just loosing the round, but it all but shows he did recognize Yamcha as a possible threat.

I don`t think a cliffhanger of Ten using Kiai (a technique never seen before) against the Kamehameha merits any kind of raw ease. Ten was obviously holding back a bit, but what some seem to be forgetting is that Kuririn went against someone weaker than Ten and was on the verge of factually losing the match if not for tricking Chaoutzu.

21rst Bodukai happened, Yamucha unlike Kuririn, had zero training with Roshi

And he did way better than Krillin prior to training with Roshi.

They both hit the opponents only once, Kuririn with a punch, Yamucha with the Sokidan. The Sokidan seemed to surprise more, since it looked like Kami was almost certainly either momentarily knocked off his breath or briefly out, to the point that almost everyone (from Roshi to Tenshinhan) were claiming victory after the fact, whereas with Kuririn it was part of his set up to catch Piccolo off guard and try to follow through, but couldn`t.

It actually looked like he briefly did. It`s clear Yamucha was not up to the task, but a number of reasons can be pointed out, from Kami chosing to end an affair that had already determined the victor, from not wanting to have the chance of harming the body of the host any more before his big fight with Piccolo. While I agree Kami is obviously noble at heart, his clear concern over the body he was using should not be overlooked.

And Piccolo was not hurt whatsoever by Krillin unlike Yamcha vs Kami.

A bit of apples and oranges. Kuririn was suppose to have raised his PL to the max in that one single attack, Yamucha didn`t.

Which it seemed like we could have seen something new. Yamcha was not bluffing about him defeating the Saibamen. He was not impressed. He was killed because he thought the Saibaman was dead or KO'd. Too bad that happened. I would have like to see Yamcha take on the other Saibamen.

Kami wasn't playing around to humiliate Yamcha, he was acting like a teacher , same as Roshi did with Tenshinhan. If it was just about being impressed, he would have just said so or maybe waited and see if he could manage another move, because if Kami was that confident that Yamcha stood no chance there would have been no reason to stop the fight there. Given him a chance to show a better performance would have been a way more honourable way. I read the scene again and it seems pretty obvious to me by his stern expresion when he is attacking Yamcha that being honourable was not what Kami had in mind .

Roshi was impressed with Ten, and didn't go full out at all during the fight. He only wanted to teach him. Same thing goes for Yamcha except Yamcha smacked Kami so hard with that Sokidan all bets were off. Kami HAD TO WIN.

And as I said, Yamcha has never shown a technique that could take out three of the Saibaimen simultaneously, so there's no proof or evidence that he could do so just because he beat one of them in a one-on-one fight

And Yamcha never pushed above his base form. I'm not into PL's muhch but you are being as foolish as Raditz, Nappa and Vegeta. Don't ever go by their base. Hell, Goku suppressed his PL on Namek to 5000. Yamcha could have been doing the same. Who's to say he didn't?


I agree with this 100%:

He tried to perform the kamehameha wave, and couldn`t. It wasn`t one time or two until he got it right, and the one wave he did was weaker than required.

Did Yamucha trained for it? Almost obviously, although it is weird how his trainer didn`t knew he could do it, which he should have unless Yamucha was training alone elsewhere. Even Kuririn`s reaction reads as weird "him?". I think Kuririn didn`t believed anyone save Roshi or Goku could get it right if with six years of training under the old master he still couldn`t do it. The reason why Yamucha looked better is because with 3 less years, he fought a stronger foe than Chaotzu.
His strategy was fine, his kamehameha wasn`t. I don`t see why is that a big deal. What Roshi noted was exactly that, his Wave wasn`t strong as it should have been if he had mastered it.
Saiga wrote:
Kurilin won that fight. /end


Yes, he did. By exploiting something that had nothing to do with PLs.

Past the kami training, Yamucha`s PL was not given.

I am simply pointing out is that the comparasion doesn`t work exactly because what both did is of a different nature. Yamucha only did what was necessary to beat one Saibamen. Whereas he could kill each one of them like he believed he could, or even all in one single attack (is that even a requirement?) is not really the debate. The point is, Kuririn doesn`t get to be easily stronger at all at this point just because he pushed himself higher to do one attack whether Yamucha didn`t had to, because the situation of his confrontation was different.

Thank you Olympian! Thank you!

Also read Lord Eeyore Haw-Haw post above me about death. I can tell you for a fact, death ain't fun. I would be like Yamcha. Hell, if you got your arm blown off in a fight, I don't think you would want to go out again in a similar situation and try that crap again.