How strong is Kaioshin and Piccolo ( Boo saga )

[Piccolo Daimao]

I thing they said that they can't stay Super Saiyan when sleeping, in the manga. I could be wrong though.

You are. No-one ever said anything about Super Saiyan in relation to sleep. Only the anime had Gokuu and Gohan sleeping as Super Saiyans.

[Super Vegetto]

Bussani :

I say that AT still had SSJ2 as part or SSJ. Something like ASSJ and USSJ. Gohan getting soft and weaker was result of him not having lightning.
Every picture says Gohan is SSJ. Only because aura.
I also see Gohan as SSJ, but when you read manga, you can see that something is not right.

But you know what, put every evidence of Gohan beeing SSJ so i can see if i missd something. Ofc that is if you whant.

Godo :

I showed you proof that Gohans hair is same in world tournament and against Dabura. AT made Gohan looking better and not like he had 5 min to finish Gohans panels.

You clearly didnt saw last panel where Gohan doesnt have so detailed hair :

http://comic.dragonballcn.com:1080/list ... -xl2Tv.jpg
Now look at this first panel.
http://comic.dragonballcn.com:1080/list ... -MVI4e.jpg
Can you see the diffrenece ?

Man his hair never grew, at changes his hair all the time in back. His back side is sometimes spiky in base and sometimes not.

[Godo]

I showed you proof that Gohans hair is same in world tournament and against Dabura. AT made Gohan looking better and not like he had 5 min to finish Gohans panels.

Nope, that wasn't proof.
AT actually had one week to finish a chaper, so I bet that it took more than 5 min for him to draw that panel.

You clearly didnt saw last panel where Gohan doesnt have so detailed hair :

Yup, I saw that panel, and still have a different opinion.

Man his hair never grew, at changes his hair all the time in back. His back side is sometimes spiky in base and sometimes not.

His hair style changed undoubtedly between the Saiyaman arc and the Tenkaichi Budokai arc.

I start to realize that the problem here isn't that I have interpreted the images wrong (since they are clearly different and consistent). You are delusional.

[Super Vegetto]

No. Its clearly that you whant me to follow your opinion because i saw you debating about Gohan beeing SSJ in other topic.

So dont talk that problem is in me because art doesnt matter. Statment is what i follow and then art.

Statments say Gohan was SSJ2 and not SSJ.

[012yArthur0]

No. Its clearly that you whant me to follow your opinion because i saw you debating about Gohan beeing SSJ in other topic.

So dont talk that problem is in me because art doesnt matter. Statment is what i follow and then art.

Statments say Gohan was SSJ2 and not SSJ.

The problem is, you based yourself on Kaioshin, and he does nothing but fail.

He saw Gohan SSJ2 power, and he got scared by pui-pui and Yakon, which are nothing but wimps compared to them. Not only that, but Gohan "locked himself" to don't use SSJ2 for unknown reasons, to even being relutant when they forced him (Maybe because of the Ego/Evilness boost it gives to him?).

Also, lightning/sparks is one of the easiest things to draw, it doesn't really make sense AT bypass it (The hair is ok, since you can't see the changes unless you take a good look at it).

[Super Vegetto]

I dont know if you even readed this topic but i will explain what you posted in my way :

First thing he saw is Dabura and he logicly compered his power to Gohans SSJ2. He though they dont have chance but ofc Gohan later relise more power in SSJ2.

He is scared of Pocus and Yakon because he knows that they are Babidis slave. The slaves from guy that created monster than is stronger than Dabura. He couldnt sence Pocus and Yakon ki but i already opened topic about this.

He clearly senced it but he was extra carefull like what would happend if Pocus magicly powers up. He just whanted to end everything quicky so that he doesnt worry anymore but saiyans are saiyans.

Simple. Gohan got soft and probably little weaker which is stated. AT clearly never introduced us with SSJ2 until Goku demonstrated transformations. SSJ2 is stated by many as bayond ssj or simply ssj thing.

Kibito clearly heard level beyond ssj and yet he says not even ss would help.

Btw i alredy proved how Goku is knocked down SSJ2 because of 1 bang that he doesnt have in SSJ. Vegeta clearly has SSJ aura and yet he is SSJ2. I made more proof how he doesnt magicly goes SSJ2 everytime his aura changes because SSJ2 was still part of SSJ in that time.
Vegeta weaker SSJ2 > aura changing and maybe sometimes how person feals aura can change.

Daizenshuu 7 stated by AT to be DragonBall encyclopedia. In daizenshuu 7 its stated he is SSJ2 after world tournament.

[dprez]

Daizenshuu 7 stated by AT to be DragonBall encyclopedia. In daizenshuu 7 its stated he is SSJ2 after world tournament.

It should be noted that although Akira Toriyama is listed as the author of this databook, he actually had very little involvement with the production of its content, if any at all. Toriyama makes it quite clear in most of his daizenshuu introductions that “they” (Shueisha) are responsible for putting these together, and he is often graciously humble in thanking them for all their hard work in sorting through his exhaustive series. - Kanzenshuu.com

[Super Vegetto]

Well i dont care about last sentence but if he thinks that Gohan was never SSJ2 after world tournament then i dont have problem.

[Bussani]

I say that AT still had SSJ2 as part or SSJ. Something like ASSJ and USSJ. Gohan getting soft and weaker was result of him not having lightning.

Oh, I agree with you. Super Saiyan 2 was treated as a part of Super Saiyan back then. In fact, it and Super Saiyan 3 are later, too, if you ask me. You could get away with calling all of them "Super Saiyan" under one umbrella, since each form just builds upon the last.

But that said, I think that might actually work against what you're saying. You're saying that when they're weaker, their aura might look different--but wouldn't a weaker Super Saiyan 2 just be more like a Super Saiyan? Super Saiyan 1.5 maybe? If you're saying that Super Saiyan 1 and 2 were more or less the same thing back then, then it isn't strange for Vegeta to "change" from one to the other.

Besides that, if the lack of the aura and lightning is a sign of them being weaker, then shouldn't Gohan be weaker against Dabura than he was when he used Super Saiyan 2 at the tournament? Which, once again, contradicts Kaioshin's comment.

You see what I mean? I can totally see why you have your opinion, and I'd never say that anyone who thinks Gohan was Super Saiyan 2 were wrong, because I can't prove that. But at the same time, no one can conclusively prove that he wasn't Super Saiyan 1, either. Both points of view have flaws that can only be explained if you're willing to stretch logic a bit.

Edit: I almost forgot: even though Daizenshuu 7 says that Gohan was Super Saiyan 2, Daizenshuu 2 says that he didn't use Super Saiyan 2 after volume 37 (i.e. at the tournament).

[012yArthur0]

Also, I think we can consider Gohan way to think. I mean, if he was Super Saiyan, he would be using less energy on the fight. And less energy = more time to Buu be complete.

That's why I believe that Dabra didn't was on his all, otherwise, he could just heavily injure Gohan and the desperation would leave to Goku and Vegeta say "Fuck that!" and both strike at once (that would not happen though, but in a war, you need to consider bluffs, like, why they are doing janken to decide? because they are idiots or to make the enemy think they are idiots)?

Not only that, Dabra just scooped and gave a oppoturnity to babidi, to slave a warrior which will be a really,really satured food for boo.

[Super Vegetto]

Bussani :

Yes your right about this. Now for Gohan having every ssj2 characteristic on world tournament :

Lets says that it would be awkward if he went SSJ2 that looks exactly like SSJ. I mean he only once stated that he will go above SSJ, so first SSJ2 in Boo saga should look like one and not complity diffrent.

Btw i still dont get other daizenshuu that says Gohan wasnt ssj2 after world tournament. Is translation wrong or something diffrent ?

[Bussani]

Lets says that it would be awkward if he went SSJ2 that looks exactly like SSJ. I mean he only once stated that he will go above SSJ, so first SSJ2 in Boo saga should look like one and not complity diffrent.

You could say that, but that's another one of those stretches of logic I mentioned. I think that's unavoidable, though.

Btw i still dont get other daizenshuu that says Gohan wasnt ssj2 after world tournament. Is translation wrong or something diffrent ?

It's not a mistranslation; it's just the two Daizenshuu disagreeing with one another. It just goes to show that they're not infallible, and it's another reason that opinions differ so much when it comes to this topic. Perhaps the people writing the guides had different interpretations of the manga themselves.

[Fox666]

It's interesting that before Goku transformed in Super Saiyan 3, in all instances a character transformed in Super Saiyan 2, someone else actually said something about it. I.e. Gohan transforming in the 25th Budokai; Goku fighting against Vegeta; and Goku explaining the forms to Babidi and Boo. In fact, it seems that up to this point there is some fuss about that form, even Babidi easily recognized that form as being the same Vegeta used when Goku transformed.

If Gohan supposedly fought against Darbra as a Super Saiyan 2, it would be the only moment nobody ever say anything about it.

Perhaps the people writing the guides had different interpretations of the manga themselves.

I don't think they put much tought behind it. Daizenshuu 7 contains only generic descriptions of characters.

And Daizenshuu 7 profile of Darbra is the only instance which Gohan being a Super Saiyan 2 against him is ever mentioned. Which of course someone could say that it happened "off-screen" and it doesn't necessarily means anything regarding the form he was shown in the manga.

[Saiga]

The problem is Daizenshuu 2 is very unreliable. It also says that Gohan didn't use his "Ultimate Warrior" form after it's debut, which is false. So I wouldn't trust it.

[Bussani]

Daizenshuu 7 also says that Goten was born while Goku was fighting in the Cell Game, which is pretty weird. I don't think any of them are 100% reliable. And it's probably easier to overlook the Ultimate Warrior thing, since Gohan gets absorbed at the very end of volume 41 and then barely does anything in volume 42.

[Fox666]

The problem is that you guys are looking for mere summaries of what happened in the manga. You don't need the Daizenshuu for that. These guidebooks are not supposed to give us an answer if Gohan was or not a Super Saiyan 2 at the time, since neither of them are focusing on that subject.

[Kaboom]

The problem is Daizenshuu 2 is very unreliable. It also says that Gohan didn't use his "Ultimate Warrior" form after it's debut, which is false. So I wouldn't trust it.

I like to think that as of Volume 42 when Vegetto made his debut, Gohan was no longer technically the "mightiest warrior."

[dprez]

The problem is that you guys are looking for mere summaries of what happened in the manga. You don't need the Daizenshuu for that. These guidebooks are not supposed to give us an answer if Gohan was or not a Super Saiyan 2 at the time, since neither of them are focusing on that subject.

Yea, and when the guide books are taken out of the picture, I find it much harder to prove Gohan was a ssj2, rather then just a regular ssj against Dabra and Boo.

[Piccolo Daimao]

So, I guess we've inevitably begun going round in circles again. Oh wait, no, we've been doing that for years.

*sigh* You know what? I'm going to type up my brilliant theory that makes no sense whatsoever once and for all.

Everyone became retarded in the Boo arc, and both Kaioushin and Kibito were especially so, having lived in their bubble up in the Kaioushin Realm for most of their lives (you know what I mean) and then isolated themselves from the rest of the universe (I mean, he still thinks killing Freeza is a big deal, to these Super Saiyans). Kaioushin's quite young, inexperienced and extra-cautious about every little thing remotely related to Bobbodi (which is why he panicked over Pui-Pui).

At this point in the series (at least, until he had Gokuu properly name the different subsets of Super Saiyan, while leaving out the forgotten "Super Saiyan Grades" as merely "beyond Super Saiyan", which had also been used for Super Saiyan 2), Toriyama may not have ironed out what exactly Super Saiyan 2 was meant to be: what kind of "beyond Super Saiyan"? If not that, he just got really shitty at writing, which isn't a surprise, since he was probably tired as hell writing the same damn series for 10 years, especially since he said himself that he had a low attention span. Also, Toriyama wanted to show how much stronger than Gohan Gokuu and Vegeta had become, and what better way to do that than make it seem as if SS2 was now a new transformation unique to them (judging by Gohan's statement, "Wow, Gokuu and Vegeta have gone beyond even Super Saiyan! Even though I did that 7 years ago and they've already made it quite clear that they've become stronger than me when I was slacking off!")?

So no-one ever saw or felt anything out of the ordinary when Gohan only transformed into a Super Saiyan against Dabra and Fat Boo, perhaps because Gokuu and Vegeta themselves could barely tell the difference. Also, Gohan refrained from going SS2 because, like his retarded "pacifist" phase at the Cell Games, he was afraid of fucking up again. Presumably, he hadn't trained well enough (or at all) in the form to become comfortable with it, or even set aside its side-effects.

Go on, tell me how I'm wrong, because I know I am, but I don't give a shit because I'm fed up of going over the same damn thing for the millionth motherfucking time.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The problem is Daizenshuu 2 is very unreliable. It also says that Gohan didn't use his "Ultimate Warrior" form after it's debut, which is false. So I wouldn't trust it.

If you say that you can't trust a Daizenshuu book, then I could easily say that the manga isn't trustworthy because after the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai, the Dragon Balls were reactivated after 8 months, instead of 12.