Was Gohan "Ultimate" in Movie #12?

[TheMightyOzaru]

It is unproductive if Goku was trying. However based on this knowledge it would appear that Goku is more focused on training Gohan and Piccolo than himself. This would explain why Vegeta was stronger than Goku. However this doesnt explain why Piccolo would be above base Vegeta at this point in time. Fighting someone stronger isnt going to increase the rate at which your strength increases. If it does that would mean that Gohan and Goku got an unbelievable amount stronger in the ROSAT.

Are you joking? Goku and Gohan did get unbelievably stronger in the RoSaT. Pre-RoSaT Goku and Gohan were weaker than the Androids Cell had absorbed. After the RoSaT training Goku is able to fight on par with a restrained Perfect Cell in his regular SSJ form, whereas it took Vegeta the SSJG2 to take on Semi-Perfect Cell.

I am referring to something heavily exponential

Well Gohan managed to hold his own against the androids a few times while SSJ so he is pretty strong. He even lasted longer than Vegeta in his time. You seem to be missing the fact that Gohan said Trunks might surpass him in a few months that would apply to his SSJ form as well.

Androids who stated they weren't even using half their strength when they last thought.

And? The androids are certainly more than twice as strong as the SSJ Goku that fought Frieza =/. That would put SSJ Gohan around more than twice as strong as the SSJ Goku that fought Frieza.

[Hitiro]

I am referring to something heavily exponential

If you are referring to that then nothing else was heavily exponential from Android saga to Cell Games saga either. Goku and Gohan got the highest increases in strength during these arcs. Nobody can compare to the sheer increase they went through during the time they spent in the RoSaT.

And? The androids are certainly more than twice as strong as the SSJ Goku that fought Freeza =/. That would put SSJ Gohan around more than twice as strong as the SSJ Goku that fought Freeza.

That may be the case but Gohan has been fighting with the androids for the past Decade. For him to be only putting up a fight against #17 at around 50% of his strength kind of proves that sparring with strong people is beneficial and that sheer training and Zenkai's alone can't produce that large of a gain otherwise Gohan would have taken care of the Androids by now. The length of time for the Namek saga was only a few days and the Warriors did get some decent boosts to allow them to keep up with their opponents. Considering their boosts then and taking into consideration that Gohan is, at most, only as strong as 50% of Android #17's power in the last decade then Zenkai's and solo training have become much less practical. Trunks is only at the strength he is when we meet him largely due to Gohan being a strong sparring partner for him to get strong quickly.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Lacked the power when the Virus was still taking effect =/ and no Goku punched 20 back by quite a bit actually. Despite being outclassed by a very weak SSJ Goku =/.

That "very weak" Super Saiyan was still implied to be quite powerful, regardless--which is something the Base Saiyans aren't implied to be at all. It's not like this was everyone's first time sensing a Super Saiyan. Also, Base Goku's punch did jack to #20. The emotion on his face didn't even change when he got punched. Goku did nothing there, nor would his Base somehow put up a better effort against the Androids than his Super Saiyan form...no matter how "weak" he appeared to be.

It is unproductive if Goku was trying. However based on this knowledge it would appear that Goku is more focused on training Gohan and Piccolo than himself. This would explain why Vegeta was stronger than Goku. However this doesnt explain why Piccolo would be above base Vegeta at this point in time. Fighting someone stronger isnt going to increase the rate at which your strength increases. If it does that would mean that Gohan and Goku got an unbelievable amount stronger in the ROSAT.

They both powered-up tremendously after their training. Half of Goku's power was enough to overwhelm the others. Certainly Goku and Gohan's sparring helped with that. Both Trunks and Vegeta got much stronger after sparring in the rosat as well, and we know Vegeta was quite stronger than him beforehand. As for Vegeta being stronger than Goku--yes, it's implied, but Piccolo still says he "might've surpassed" Goku, so it's still up in the air. When going by what Piccolo has to say on Goku's true power, he was most certainly more powerful than he was showing, which leads me to believe he didn't backtrack with his training over those 3 yrs much, if at all.

Well Gohan managed to hold his own against the androids a few times while SSJ so he is pretty strong. He even lasted longer than Vegeta in his time. You seem to be missing the fact that Gohan said Trunks might surpass him in a few months that would apply to his SSJ form as well.

Yeah, because they weren't taking him seriously. We don't even know if Vegeta reached Super Saiyan in the future, or how strong he was, either. What Gohan said could've just been pep-talk. Trunks was quite winded after having his attacks blocked by Gohan. Heck, even teen Gohan states the kids might surpass him soon.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I am referring to something heavily exponential

If you are referring to that then nothing else was heavily exponential from Android saga to Cell Games saga either. Goku and Gohan got the highest increases in strength during these arcs. Nobody can compare to the sheer increase they went through during the time they spent in the RoSaT.

And? The androids are certainly more than twice as strong as the SSJ Goku that fought Freeza =/. That would put SSJ Gohan around more than twice as strong as the SSJ Goku that fought Freeza.

That may be the case but Gohan has been fighting with the androids for the past Decade. For him to be only putting up a fight against #17 at around 50% of his strength kind of proves that sparring with strong people is beneficial and that sheer training and Zenkai's alone can't produce that large of a gain otherwise Gohan would have taken care of the Androids by now. The length of time for the Namek saga was only a few days and the Warriors did get some decent boosts to allow them to keep up with their opponents. Considering their boosts then and taking into consideration that Gohan is, at most, only as strong as 50% of Android #17's power in the last decade then Zenkai's and solo training have become much less practical. Trunks is only at the strength he is when we meet him largely due to Gohan being a strong sparring partner for him to get strong quickly.

Gohan doesnt really know how to train properly plus I have been contemplating a SSJ Multiplier decrease. This would leave room for a pretty good base power increase. How does sparring with a stronger partner make you stronger faster? Thats like saying a brick wall is better for training than a punching bag. Its gonna just lead to pain not gain. You got to take training at a pace. You cant just train against a SSJ whom is holding back, in Piccolo's case, and expect to get stronger faster. It doesnt work that way.

[TheMightyOzaru]

That "very weak" Super Saiyan was still implied to be quite powerful, regardless--which is something the Base Saiyans aren't implied to be at all. It's not like this was everyone's first time sensing a Super Saiyan. Also, Base Goku's punch did jack to #20. The emotion on his face didn't even change when he got punched. Goku did nothing there, nor would his Base somehow put up a better effort against the Androids than his Super Saiyan form...no matter how "weak" he appeared to be.

Implied by whom to be powerful? Tien? Yeah because he certainly knows what power is =/. His base power hindered his SSJ increase. Piccolo certainly noticed something wrong with Goku so it is in fact implied that Goku was weaker. I've been recently considering a SSJ multiplier decrease in all seriousness. This would leave room for a good base increase while still not going into ludicrous power levels.

Yeah, because they weren't taking him seriously. We don't even know if Vegeta reached Super Saiyan in the future, or how strong he was, either. What Gohan said could've just been pep-talk. Trunks was quite winded after having his attacks blocked by Gohan. Heck, even teen Gohan states the kids might surpass him soon.

They were using half power. 17 and 18 are far stronger than the SSJ Goku that fought Frieza with only half power thus SSJ Gohan is as well.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Implied by whom to be powerful? Tenshinhan? Yeah because he certainly knows what power is =/. His base power hindered his SSJ increase. Piccolo certainly noticed something wrong with Goku so it is in fact implied that Goku was weaker. I've been recently considering a SSJ multiplier decrease in all seriousness. This would leave room for a good base increase while still not going into ludicrous power levels.

All of the humans already understood how powerful a Super Saiyan was yrs before--so it makes sense for Goku to at least be better than what he displayed for Trunks. It's quite clear he was weaker, but to what extent, we don't know. Piccolo (and Gohan) knew Goku's true power was better than what he was showing, since they trained with him and saw him at his best. The only thing we know is that he's not fighting at his best. How "weak" he is is entirely subjective.

They were using half power. 17 and 18 are far stronger than the SSJ Goku that fought Freeza with only half power thus SSJ Gohan is as well.

#17 wasn't even using half-power.

[Hitiro]

Gohan doesnt really know how to train properly plus I have been contemplating a SSJ Multiplier decrease. This would leave room for a pretty good base power increase. How does sparring with a stronger partner make you stronger faster? Thats like saying a brick wall is better for training than a punching bag. Its gonna just lead to pain not gain. You got to take training at a pace. You cant just train against a SSJ whom is holding back, in Piccolo's case, and expect to get stronger faster. It doesnt work that way.

If the SSJ Multiplier were to decrease why doesn't Goku just stop using it and start using Kaioken later on? Of course your strength will increase by fighting with stronger opponents than yourself. Usually its the only way to learn and grow. There are a lot of individuals in sports as well as other things in life which have benefited from going head to head with people stronger than themselves. Look at Jamaica or Kenya in running sports. Those two countries produce a lot of high quality athletes in that area because their countries have very strong and competitive scene for the sport. Training is a benefit but so is sparring as much as anything else. Why do you think sparring was even invented? It was created so that martial artists could develop their skills outside the traditional form of combat. Learning from a stronger opponent allows you to see, and for the most part, get stomped by high level techniques and skills and allows you assess them for future battles with equally strong foes. Hopefully if you've experienced a similar sort of fight before you will put up a better fight the next time around because you may have notice flaws or problems in their ability.

[TheMightyOzaru]

All of the humans already understood how powerful a Super Saiyan was yrs before--so it makes sense for Goku to at least be better than what he displayed for Trunks. It's quite clear he was weaker, but to what extent, we don't know. Piccolo (and Gohan) knew Goku's true power was better than what he was showing, since they trained with him and saw him at his best. The only thing we know is that he's not fighting at his best. How "weak" he is is entirely subjective.

Not really. If Piccolo notices a problem I'm gonna take what he says into consideration over the humans. Just because they notice nothing wrong doesnt mean that he is equal to the Goku that fought Trunks. Again since dont find Goku weaker than Piccolo at all I assume he is very weakened. Plus if Piccolo can take 19 and he sees Goku having trouble its pretty clear to him that he is much weaker.

They were using half power. 17 and 18 are far stronger than the SSJ Goku that fought Freeza with only half power thus SSJ Gohan is as well.

#17 wasn't even using half-power.[/quote]
He is using around half power =/.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Gohan doesnt really know how to train properly plus I have been contemplating a SSJ Multiplier decrease. This would leave room for a pretty good base power increase. How does sparring with a stronger partner make you stronger faster? Thats like saying a brick wall is better for training than a punching bag. Its gonna just lead to pain not gain. You got to take training at a pace. You cant just train against a SSJ whom is holding back, in Piccolo's case, and expect to get stronger faster. It doesnt work that way.

If the SSJ Multiplier were to decrease why doesn't Goku just stop using it and start using Kaioken later on? Of course your strength will increase by fighting with stronger opponents than yourself. Usually its the only way to learn and grow. There are a lot of individuals in sports as well as other things in life which have benefited from going head to head with people stronger than themselves. Look at Jamaica or Kenya in running sports. Those two countries produce a lot of high quality athletes in that area because their countries have very strong and competitive scene for the sport. Training is a benefit but so is sparring as much as anything else. Why do you think sparring was even invented? It was created so that martial artists could develop their skills outside the traditional form of combat. Learning from a stronger opponent allows you to see, and for the most part, get stomped by high level techniques and skills and allows you assess them for future battles with equally strong foes. Hopefully if you've experienced a similar sort of fight before you will put up a better fight the next time around because you may have notice flaws or problems in their ability.

No. Kaioken may have decreased in usefulness after a while. Furthermore he doesnt really need to use it at the time. He just jumps to mastering SSJ after the androids. More intense training will yield a better result however not to the degree that people assume Piccolo attained.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Not really. If Piccolo notices a problem I'm gonna take what he says into consideration over the humans. Just because they notice nothing wrong doesnt mean that he is equal to the Goku that fought Trunks. Again since dont find Goku weaker than Piccolo at all I assume he is very weakened. Plus if Piccolo can take 19 and he sees Goku having trouble its pretty clear to him that he is much weaker.

The fact of the matter is a weakened Super Saiyan putting out close to his full-power will often put up a better effort than his Base self would simply because he's 50x stronger than usual. And yes, Piccolo mentions he was nearly putting out his full-power. That could just be his current full-power rather than his true full-power, tho. Either way, Piccolo's showing is better than this Goku's against a more powerful opponent, so he's most likely stronger by a good amount.

Anyway, I don't see why you're so against Piccolo getting such a huge increase considering what's shown and stated. Increases vary throughout the series.

[Hitiro]

No. Kaioken may have decreased in usefulness after a while. Furthermore he doesnt really need to use it at the time. He just jumps to mastering SSJ after the androids. More intense training will yield a better result however not to the degree that people assume Piccolo attained.

Kaioken's usefulness would have increased if the SSJ multiplier dropped off. Unless you're going to tell me that the Kaioken technique also received a multiplier decrease, in which case there is something clearly wrong with you. Techniques don't lose their effectiveness any more than a gun losing its effectiveness to kill. It just doesn't happen. As for your statement about Piccolo increasing in strength I've given you the answer, sparring. Its what made Goku and Gohan go from being weaker than the androids to being on par with a restrained Perfect Cell. I also doubt Kuririn would have said "He's so strong... and he's not even a Super Saiyan!" If Piccolo wasn't at least stronger than Vegeta and Goku's base powerlevels. It would have been more like "He's so strong... and he's not even a Saiyan!" if that were the case.

[Nazi Cola]

I interpreted that line from Piccolo as him saying Goku is putting out everything he can at that level of power (rushing the fight instead of trying to have a rather fun fight), but it should be more magnificent.

[TheMightyOzaru]

No. Kaioken may have decreased in usefulness after a while. Furthermore he doesnt really need to use it at the time. He just jumps to mastering SSJ after the androids. More intense training will yield a better result however not to the degree that people assume Piccolo attained.

Kaioken's usefulness would have increased if the SSJ multiplier dropped off. Unless you're going to tell me that the Kaioken technique also received a multiplier decrease, in which case there is something clearly wrong with you. Techniques don't lose their effectiveness any more than a gun losing its effectiveness to kill. It just doesn't happen. As for your statement about Piccolo increasing in strength I've given you the answer, sparring. Its what made Goku and Gohan go from being weaker than the androids to being on par with a restrained Perfect Cell. I also doubt Kuririn would have said "He's so strong... and he's not even a Super Saiyan!" If Piccolo wasn't at least stronger than Vegeta and Goku's base powerlevels. It would have been more like "He's so strong... and he's not even a Saiyan!" if that were the case.

You misunderstand. Goku probably got too strong to use Kaioken. It would probably put a serious strain on at this point. Plus the virus was taking over at this point so it probably wouldnt have been a smart choice to use it. Its probably why he doesnt use Kaioken at all while SSJ. There is something wrong with me for thinking the multiplier for Kaioken dropped? Excuse me? Where is your proof that it doesnt work like that? I dont believe it does but who are you to claim that as fact. Very little is concrete in the world of Dragon Ball so dont try to claim fact to something like that. Your gun analogy holds no water here. Stuff doesnt lose its effectiveness? really? I direct you to the Saiyans tail that was stated by Toiyama to be inferior after a while. It lost effectiveness over SSJ. Why then cant a amplification be reduced like that of the tail? No reason really. You seem to be missing something very important here? Why would Piccolo get any stronger than Goku when he is sparing with people as well? Please elaborate how is Piccolo sparing against SSJ Goku any different than him sparing with base Goku? You do realize that they cant sense the energy of an android right? They are simply impressed by the fact that Piccolo is taking an android that was supposed to be stronger than a SSJ. Tien and Krillin also thought that Goku was doing great against 19 so they cant really be trusted in this situation now can they?

[TheMightyOzaru]

Not really. If Piccolo notices a problem I'm gonna take what he says into consideration over the humans. Just because they notice nothing wrong doesnt mean that he is equal to the Goku that fought Trunks. Again since dont find Goku weaker than Piccolo at all I assume he is very weakened. Plus if Piccolo can take 19 and he sees Goku having trouble its pretty clear to him that he is much weaker.

The fact of the matter is a weakened Super Saiyan putting out close to his full-power will often put up a better effort than his Base self would simply because he's 50x stronger than usual. And yes, Piccolo mentions he was nearly putting out his full-power. That could just be his current full-power rather than his true full-power, tho. Either way, Piccolo's showing is better than this Goku's against a more powerful opponent, so he's most likely stronger by a good amount.

Anyway, I don't see why you're so against Piccolo getting such a huge increase considering what's shown and stated. Increases vary throughout the series.

Why would a Namekian surpass a Saiyan without fusion? They have never done so before so why now? You would be wrong Piccolo states that Goku was fighting at his full power at first but later Piccolo says Goku should be much much stronger. His power level seems to be decreasing rapidly. Knowing Goku he probably wanted to have some fun at first but then his power started to rapidly decrease and Piccolo saw that.

[Kaboom]

Why would a Namekian surpass a Saiyan without fusion? They have never done so before so why now?

King Piccolo, who wasn't even a warrior-type (yet), pwnzor3d Goku the first time they fought. Piccolo handily surpassed Raditz in the span of a single year (Raditz: 1500, Piccolo: 3500). The average Namekian Warrior (~3000) could have easily spanked Raditz, too. When Nail and Vegeta first met, guess which was stronger of the two (Nail: 42,000, Vegeta: ~30,000)?

[Rory]

Let's not forget the newly fused God/Piccolo fusion could've likely torn Super Saiyan Vegeta a new one.
EDIT: Didn't see the "Fused" part of the comment, ignore me!

[TheMightyOzaru]

Why would a Namekian surpass a Saiyan without fusion? They have never done so before so why now?

King Piccolo, who wasn't even a warrior-type (yet), pwnzor3d Goku the first time they fought. Piccolo handily surpassed Raditz in the span of a single year (Raditz: 1500, Piccolo: 3500). The average Namekian Warrior (~3000) could have easily spanked Raditz, too. When Nail and Vegeta first met, guess which was stronger of the two (Nail: 42,000, Vegeta: ~30,000)?

Piccolo Daimao started out stronger and Goku whooped his ass in little time. Nail started out stronger than Vegeta and Vegeta surpassed him in little time. I should also phrase this question. Why would a Namek get stronger than a member of a warrior race who's very existence thrives on battle especially when that Namek starts out weaker?

{DOUBLE-POSTS MERGED BY MODERATOR}

Let's not forget the newly fused God/Piccolo fusion could've likely torn Super Saiyan Vegeta a new one.

He wouldnt have likely torn him a new one he WOULD have torn him a new one. Vegeta himself admits that.

[Kaboom]

I should also phrase this question. Why would a Namek get stronger than a member of a warrior race who's very existence thrives on battle especially when that Namek starts out weaker?

Because Saiyans aren't the only "warrior race" out there. Warrior-type Namekians are born and bred for battle, too. They are literally born that way; They're naturally far stronger and better-suited for battle than not just other Namekians, but most other races in general. Namekians are an ancient, mysterious, and powerful race, and they're no less "special" than Saiyans.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I should also phrase this question. Why would a Namek get stronger than a member of a warrior race who's very existence thrives on battle especially when that Namek starts out weaker?

Because Saiyans aren't the only "warrior race" out there. Warrior-type Namekians are born and bred for battle, too. They are literally born that way; They're naturally far stronger and better-suited for battle than not just other Namekians, but most other races in general. Namekians are an ancient, mysterious, and powerful race, and they're no less "special" than Saiyans.

Saiyans are also born warriors. They are blood thirsty and Goku has been constantly surpassing Piccolo at every turn why stop now?

[Kaboom]

"Status quo" is not a good argument for anything.

Goku DID surpass Piccolo again, obviously. Except he had a new method of doing so this time around: Super Saiyan. Want to see a list?

WAYS THAT GOKU HAS SURPASSED PICCOLO IN POWER
King Piccolo Arc: Super Holy Water.
23rd Tournament Arc: Special training from Kami.
Saiyan Arc: Special training from Kaio.
Namek Arc: Gravity training and abuse of Saiyan healing boosts. (Then Super Saiyan was just overkill)
Androids Arc: Super Saiyan.
Cell Arc: Super Saiyan "Grades," then Full-Power Super Saiyan.