Buu Saga Info

[Amuro Ray]

You're ignoring this because you can't think of a reason as to why after absorbing the South Kaioshin; Boo absorbed the Dai Kaioshin. That's it simply.

No, I'm ignoring it because nothing is stated about a power increase/decrease in any of the 3 media forms. It's your opinion and nothing more.

Again you are saying Gotenks surpassed Vegeta(Who is just as strong as Goku without SSJ transformations) and others while twisting the meaning of others. Get this through your head.

You're right - the boys in base form can still be weaker than Vegeta in baseform, but having another transformation would make them stronger, this isn't a difficult concept to understand.

Vegeta is as strong as Goku. You are just making up rubbish to suit your own beliefs you can't say "Well, others means everyone but the Saiyans." Where is your proof? If Vegeta is as strong as Goku there is no need to say Vegeta and Goku and others. Where does Gohan fit in with your butchering of others? At this point in time Gohan would have to have been included, he was weaker than Vegeta. In that case why doesn't it say "Vegeta and the others, except Goku."?

Except Vegeta isn't as strong as Goku - there is no reason to name Vegeta over Goku when Goku is stronger. If they meant Goku, they would have explicitly named him, and they didn't. We are forced to conclude Vegeta and those weaker than him are now outclassed by Gotenks.

Goku used the word "and" because Vegeta is hardly going to wish back ONE person. Lets play this out shall we?

Vegeta: I want you to use the first wish to bring back planet Earth.

Goku: Oh! I see! You're going to bring back Gohan OR Gotenks.

Vegeta: Yes Kakkarot! I want you to use your second wish to bring back only Gohan, we don't need anybody else alive. Forget bringing EVERYONE back to life.

"and" is used because both Gohan and Gotenks would be brought back with the same wish. its has nothing to with bringing them both to fight. What Goku said was:

Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P7.4
Context: after Vegeta has the Earth brought back with the dragonballs
Goku: “Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight.”
Vegeta: “No.”

This sentence would make no sense if Goku said "Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan either/or Gotenks back to life so they can fight.” It would be a waste of a wish to only bring back one person rather than everyone on Earth. Don't you get that? And nowhere does Goku say so they can both fight Boo, either.

Goku: Oh I know Vegeta, you'll wish back everyone and have GOHAN come and fight, right?
Still, This doesn't change that the suggestion was refused and never mentioned again.

The difference with what I'm saying and what you're saying is that Kuririn was still in the belief that fusion was the strongest thing. It wasn't about power or strength. But then Piccolo came in with an uncertainty that fusion just won't cut it any more. So fusion went from being a viable option against Fat Boo to being clearly outclassed by Evil Boo as state by Piccolo later on. So Piccolo goes from assuming SSJ Gotenks can take Fat Boo to thinking there is no way he can take Evil Boo and you believe the power increase wasn't that large? Good job. Should I also point out that nobody said anything about Fat Boo's ki from the Kaioshin's world. Yet Evil Boo's power was sensed there regardless. And as for you saying Goku is talking about the nature of Evil Boo's ki you are just making an assumption. He could also be talking about power. Like "This ki...what is it?...It's much more powerful than before." You have no idea what Goku meant when he said "what is it?" you are just making assumptions.

Uh, ok. So Goku never comments on Buu's power, but he does question it. We don't know why and he doesn't make any comment concerning it increasing, so we can both ignore Goku's comment. What we do know is that Goku, who is said by you to be weaker than Superbuu, could be felt all over the universe and into otherworld - but superbuu who is on the same planet as the fighters, wasn't felt to be increasing in power from anyone other than Piccolo. Ok.

No, it States Vegeta and the others - they aren't talking about SSJ transformations - it's about Power. Period.

And Base Vegeta and Base Goku equal the same strength, so you've just nullified your point.

How - Gotenks Base could is still be considered weaker than Vegeta.

[Hitiro]

No, I'm ignoring it because nothing is stated about a power increase/decrease in any of the 3 media forms. It's your opinion and nothing more.

And? Every absorption had some sort of effect on Boo's power. Dai Kaioshin made him weaker. Gohan made him stronger. Gotenks made him stronger. Good Boo absorbed by Pure Evil Boo made him stronger. And you are telling me that South Kaioshin is the only character Boo absorbed that magically had no effect on his power? Also, again I ask you, what was the reason of Boo absorbing Dai Kaioshin if absorbing South Kaioshin had no effect on his power? Please give me a logical reason. Because it seems to me that the only reason Boo would have to absorb Dai Kaioshin is if South Kaioshin had a positive effect on him. Up until this point Evil Boo also assumed that absorbing people would add to his power. Why would he believe that if all he has to go on is Dai Kaioshin weakening him and South Kaioshin having no effect?

Again you are saying Gotenks surpassed Vegeta(Who is just as strong as Goku without SSJ transformations) and others while twisting the meaning of others. Get this through your head.

You're right - the boys in base form can still be weaker than Vegeta in baseform, but having another transformation would make them stronger, this isn't a difficult concept to understand.

So you are going to make the assumption that with the SSJ3 transformation that is the only thing that put him higher than Vegeta? So I guess Goku telling us that fusion is an amazing technique was all a lie too then? Goku would never have put the boys into the line of fire if the technique made Base Gotenks weaker than Vegeta. That would be suicide. Piccolo would also not put them in to the line of fire either. After witnessing their power in SSJ first hand you honestly expect me or anybody else to believe Piccolo went: "Oh, well you are weaker than Vegeta and you can only go SSJ. There is definitely still a chance you can fight Boo." No, if Gotenks wasn't at least near SSJ2 Majin Vegeta in SSJ then Piccolo would have used the RoSaT straight off the bat or said: "Its hopeless, the power you are at now is nowhere near Vegeta's when he thought Boo."

Vegeta is as strong as Goku. You are just making up rubbish to suit your own beliefs you can't say "Well, others means everyone but the Saiyans." Where is your proof? If Vegeta is as strong as Goku there is no need to say Vegeta and Goku and others. Where does Gohan fit in with your butchering of others? At this point in time Gohan would have to have been included, he was weaker than Vegeta. In that case why doesn't it say "Vegeta and the others, except Goku."?

Except Vegeta isn't as strong as Goku - there is no reason to name Vegeta over Goku when Goku is stronger. If they meant Goku, they would have explicitly named him, and they didn't. We are forced to conclude Vegeta and those weaker than him are now outclassed by Gotenks.

Except Vegeta IS as strong as Goku, Goku clearly admits that while they were both SSJ2 they were both completely even. I don't see why you are ignoring this fact. Sure Goku is stronger with SSJ3 but if Base Gotenks > Base Vegeta >/< Base Goku then SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku.

Goku: Oh I know Vegeta, you'll wish back everyone and have GOHAN come and fight, right?
Still, This doesn't change that the suggestion was refused and never mentioned again.

That suggestion was refused because Vegeta wanted the Earthlings to pull their weight for a change. Never was it said by Vegeta that Gohan or Gotenks couldn't defeat Pure Boo. You just assume that because Vegeta wanted to make the Earthlings work towards saving the world once.

The difference with what I'm saying and what you're saying is that Kuririn was still in the belief that fusion was the strongest thing. It wasn't about power or strength. But then Piccolo came in with an uncertainty that fusion just won't cut it any more. So fusion went from being a viable option against Fat Boo to being clearly outclassed by Evil Boo as state by Piccolo later on. So Piccolo goes from assuming SSJ Gotenks can take Fat Boo to thinking there is no way he can take Evil Boo and you believe the power increase wasn't that large? Good job. Should I also point out that nobody said anything about Fat Boo's ki from the Kaioshin's world. Yet Evil Boo's power was sensed there regardless. And as for you saying Goku is talking about the nature of Evil Boo's ki you are just making an assumption. He could also be talking about power. Like "This ki...what is it?...It's much more powerful than before." You have no idea what Goku meant when he said "what is it?" you are just making assumptions.

Uh, ok. So Goku never comments on Buu's power, but he does question it. We don't know why and he doesn't make any comment concerning it increasing, so we can both ignore Goku's comment. What we do know is that Goku, who is said by you to be weaker than Superbuu, could be felt all over the universe and into otherworld - but superbuu who is on the same planet as the fighters, wasn't felt to be increasing in power from anyone other than Piccolo. Ok.

No, what I'm saying is they sensed the power increase from Gotenks but everyone but Piccolo still believed he could fight Evil Boo because Goku said the fusion is just that strong. Piccolo looked at this objectively and concluded that SSJ Gotenks at his current power wasn't strong enough for the new Boo. You also have to understand that all the other characters are miles behind Piccolo in terms of strength. Piccolo can probably gauge higher powers better than the others because he is much closer to the higher powers than the other characters. If you have a character with a battle power of 1,000 sensing a character with a battle power of 1,000,000 then have another character which has a battle power of 500,000. The character with a 500k battle power is going to gauge his opponents strength much easier. All Kuririn can see, and likely the others, is that both Gotenks and Evil Boo are incredibly powerful. But they lack the scope to see how powerful. Its like fighting against a person who is massively stronger than yourself. You don't realise the scope of their strength compared to a person who is closer to their level.

And Base Vegeta and Base Goku equal the same strength, so you've just nullified your point.

How - Gotenks Base could is still be considered weaker than Vegeta.

Again, if that were the case then why would Piccolo ever think that SSJ Gotenks ki is:

Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P7.2-3
Context: after Super Saiyan Gotenks forms for the first time
Piccolo: “…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little.”
Gotenks: “Is that alright? If I show you here, the house might break. I’ll do it on the ground.”

Because SSJ Gotenks ki would be under SSJ Vegeta's ki. That would mean that he has no chance against Fat Boo. If that were the case then Piccolo would have said something.

Also, a comment you selectively read earlier because you only fancied answering bits:

We know Gohan is substantially weaker than Vegeta and Goku, judging by the fact that basically get's one-shotted by Buu - again, it doesn't matter how strong you THINK Gotenks is/should be - it's explicitly stated that he doesn't surpass Vegeta until after training.

Right, so if we are going by how the battles go then, Base Gotenks was pummelled by Fat Boo yet still returned without any major injury. So Base Gotenks > SSJ2 Majin Vegeta then and the Daizenshuu which states Gotenks doesn't surpass Vegeta until after the training means in transformations only. There is a key difference between the battle with Gohan and Fat Boo and the battle with Vegeta and Fat Boo. Gohan tried running away so Boo finished him quickly and Gohan had no time to defend himself. Vegeta stayed to fight and Fat Boo played with him. If you are going to say Gohan is extremely weaker than Vegeta and Goku based on the way the battles played out then Base Gotenks feats >>>> SSJ2 Majin Vegeta and SSJ2 Gohan.

Going by your argument Vegeta put up a better fight than Gohan so Gohan is much much weaker. But Base Gotenks fights Fat Boo and comes back with minor injuries all over his body. Judging by this Base Gotenks is already much stronger than any Base Saiyan.

[The Monkey King]

Am I really hearing: base Gotenks < base Vegeta?

The denial is strong in this thread

[Amuro Ray]

So you are going to make the assumption that with the SSJ3 transformation that is the only thing that put him higher than Vegeta? So I guess Goku telling us that fusion is an amazing technique was all a lie too then? Goku would never have put the boys into the line of fire if the technique made Base Gotenks weaker than Vegeta. That would be suicide. Piccolo would also not put them in to the line of fire either. After witnessing their power in SSJ first hand you honestly expect me or anybody else to believe Piccolo went: "Oh, well you are weaker than Vegeta and you can only go SSJ. There is definitely still a chance you can fight Boo." No, if Gotenks wasn't at least near SSJ2 Majin Vegeta in SSJ then Piccolo would have used the RoSaT straight off the bat or said: "Its hopeless, the power you are at now is nowhere near Vegeta's when he thought Boo."

Who knows, we can only go by what is stated.

Except Vegeta IS as strong as Goku, Goku clearly admits that while they were both SSJ2 they were both completely even. I don't see why you are ignoring this fact. Sure Goku is stronger with SSJ3 but if Base Gotenks > Base Vegeta >/< Base Goku then SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku.

Yes, Goku has SSJ3, so he has surpassed Vegeta too, and therefore stronger correct? There is no indicator at any point, nor is it mentioned at any point that base Gotenks is > Goku or any other foolishness that people are arguing. Enough.

That suggestion was refused because Vegeta wanted the Earthlings to pull their weight for a change. Never was it said by Vegeta that Gohan or Gotenks couldn't defeat Pure Boo. You just assume that because Vegeta wanted to make the Earthlings work towards saving the world once.

Yes, you're absolutely correct, except they didn't use use the power of the earthlings, but the whole universe including Namek. Also, there still the manner of Goku suggesting both Gohan and Gotenks help were needed to fight. It was stated, it is now canon and nothing you say can refute that.

No, what I'm saying is they sensed the power increase from Gotenks but everyone but Piccolo still believed he could fight Evil Boo because Goku said the fusion is just that strong. Piccolo looked at this objectively and concluded that SSJ Gotenks at his current power wasn't strong enough for the new Boo. You also have to understand that all the other characters are miles behind Piccolo in terms of strength. Piccolo can probably gauge higher powers better than the others because he is much closer to the higher powers than the other characters. If you have a character with a battle power of 1,000 sensing a character with a battle power of 1,000,000 then have another character which has a battle power of 500,000. The character with a 500k battle power is going to gauge his opponents strength much easier. All Kuririn can see, and likely the others, is that both Gotenks and Evil Boo are incredibly powerful. But they lack the scope to see how powerful. Its like fighting against a person who is massively stronger than yourself. You don't realise the scope of their strength compared to a person who is closer to their level.

Piccolo is obviously not the most reliable measure of power, considering how far off he was with Kaioshinn and Base Gotenks post ROSAT. It doesn't matter what you are saying, it doesn't matter what you believe, what is stated is that Gotenks is weaker than Vegeta until after he trains, it is stated that Superbuu is "greater" than before, though no one but Piccolo notices. Everything else is foolishness that you made up to support you theory.

Again, if that were the case then why would Piccolo ever think that SSJ Gotenks ki is:

Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P7.2-3
Context: after Super Saiyan Gotenks forms for the first time
Piccolo: “…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little.”
Gotenks: “Is that alright? If I show you here, the house might break. I’ll do it on the ground.”

Because SSJ Gotenks ki would be under SSJ Vegeta's ki. That would mean that he has no chance against Fat Boo. If that were the case then Piccolo would have said something.

Doesn't matter. Gotenks is weaker than Vegeta until after his training, and Piccolo wasn't present for Vegeta's SSJ2 fight, we just know that Piccolo is impressed with the boys power and wants to test it. Nothing more is stated, nothing else can be inferred.

Going by your argument Vegeta put up a better fight than Gohan so Gohan is much much weaker. But Base Gotenks fights Fat Boo and comes back with minor injuries all over his body. Judging by this Base Gotenks is already much stronger than any Base Saiyan.

That's silly Logic, and it contradicts what is written in the guidebooks - therefore it's false. All we know that is Fatbuu beat the boys, and the boys are weaker. Again, everything else beyond that is your theory (which I don't recognize as legitimate.) And once more - the guidebook doesn't state transformations - it says Vegeta and the others. Nothing more.

[Amuro Ray]

Hitiro - seriously, No more of your fan theories. Just argue with me based on what is written - I don't care to argue scenarios you made up, especially when it goes against the guidebooks/anime/manga, enough is enough.

[Hitiro]

So you are going to make the assumption that with the SSJ3 transformation that is the only thing that put him higher than Vegeta? So I guess Goku telling us that fusion is an amazing technique was all a lie too then? Goku would never have put the boys into the line of fire if the technique made Base Gotenks weaker than Vegeta. That would be suicide. Piccolo would also not put them in to the line of fire either. After witnessing their power in SSJ first hand you honestly expect me or anybody else to believe Piccolo went: "Oh, well you are weaker than Vegeta and you can only go SSJ. There is definitely still a chance you can fight Boo." No, if Gotenks wasn't at least near SSJ2 Majin Vegeta in SSJ then Piccolo would have used the RoSaT straight off the bat or said: "Its hopeless, the power you are at now is nowhere near Vegeta's when he thought Boo."

Who knows, we can only go by what is stated.

Wow, you really are blind, lol. Piccolo never makes any suggestion that SSJ isn't enough. Piccolo only says they aren't powerful enough to beat Fat Boo without SSJ. Going by what is stated then SSJ Gotenks is AT LEAST near SSJ2 Majin Vegeta otherwise Piccolo would have said something. You can't argue with that.

Except Vegeta IS as strong as Goku, Goku clearly admits that while they were both SSJ2 they were both completely even. I don't see why you are ignoring this fact. Sure Goku is stronger with SSJ3 but if Base Gotenks > Base Vegeta >/< Base Goku then SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku.

Yes, Goku has SSJ3, so he has surpassed Vegeta too, correct? There is no indicator at any point, nor is it mentioned at any point that base Gotenks is > Goku or any other foolishness that people are arguing. Enough.

If Base Gotenks is > Base Goku then it is clear that SSJ3 Gotenks is > SSJ3 Goku. Its obvious. You are just too stubborn to see that.

That suggestion was refused because Vegeta wanted the Earthlings to pull their weight for a change. Never was it said by Vegeta that Gohan or Gotenks couldn't defeat Pure Boo. You just assume that because Vegeta wanted to make the Earthlings work towards saving the world once.

Yes, you're absolutely correct, except they didn't use use the power of the earthlings, but the whole universe including Namek. Also, there still the manner of Goku suggesting both Gohan and Gotenks help were needed to fight. It was stated, it is now canon and nothing you say can refute that.

Wrong, they only used the Earthlings energy, Nameks and Enma Daiou and his workers. They didn't use the whole universe. You clearly need to read the manga or watch the anime again. And again Goku NEVER suggests Gohan and Gotenks help were needed to fight. What Goku said was they would both be brought back to life so they would be able to fight. He never says "so they can both fight." You need to learn to read a sentence.

No, what I'm saying is they sensed the power increase from Gotenks but everyone but Piccolo still believed he could fight Evil Boo because Goku said the fusion is just that strong. Piccolo looked at this objectively and concluded that SSJ Gotenks at his current power wasn't strong enough for the new Boo. You also have to understand that all the other characters are miles behind Piccolo in terms of strength. Piccolo can probably gauge higher powers better than the others because he is much closer to the higher powers than the other characters. If you have a character with a battle power of 1,000 sensing a character with a battle power of 1,000,000 then have another character which has a battle power of 500,000. The character with a 500k battle power is going to gauge his opponents strength much easier. All Kuririn can see, and likely the others, is that both Gotenks and Evil Boo are incredibly powerful. But they lack the scope to see how powerful. Its like fighting against a person who is massively stronger than yourself. You don't realise the scope of their strength compared to a person who is closer to their level.

Piccolo is obviously not the most reliable measure of power, conisidering how far off he was with Kaoshinn and Base Gotenks post ROSAT. It doesn't matter what you are saying, it doesn't matter what you believe, what is stated is that Gotenks is weaker than Vegeta until after he trains, it is stated that Superbuu is "greater" than before, though no one but Piccolo notices. Everything else is foolishness that you made up to support you theory.

So I guess Piccolo was wrong about Majin Vegeta's power too then? Piccolo must also have been wrong when he tried to stop Gotenks from fighting Fat Boo without SSJ as he basically said they aren't powerful enough in base form to beat Fat Boo. And I also guess Piccolo was wrong about pre-RoSaT Gotenks not being able to beat Evil Boo? Piccolo knows how strong SSJ2 Majin Vegeta is, he would NEVER entertain the idea that SSJ Gotenks might have a chance against Fat Boo if SSJ Gotenks < SSJ Vegeta. Piccolo has been right more times than he has been wrong. Fact.

Again, if that were the case then why would Piccolo ever think that SSJ Gotenks ki is:

Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P7.2-3
Context: after Super Saiyan Gotenks forms for the first time
Piccolo: “…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little.”
Gotenks: “Is that alright? If I show you here, the house might break. I’ll do it on the ground.”

Because SSJ Gotenks ki would be under SSJ Vegeta's ki. That would mean that he has no chance against Fat Boo. If that were the case then Piccolo would have said something.

Doesn't matter. Gotenks is weaker than Vegeta until after his training, and Piccolo wasn't present for Vegeta's SSJ2 fight, we just know that Piccolo is impressed with the boys power and wants to test it. Nothing more is stated, nothing else can be inferred.

Really?

Chapter: 465 (DBZ 271), P2.3
Context: as Vegeta fights Boo
Piccolo: “He’s already surpassed Super Saiyan as well…This is tremendous power…Perhaps even greater than Gohan’s when he fought Cell…”

Chapter: 465 (DBZ 271), P7.1-2
Context: after Vegeta blasts a hole through Boo’s chest
Boo: “That hurt…a little bit…hehehe…”
Vegeta: “…Are you immortal?...”

Chapter: 466 (DBZ 272), P2.3
Piccolo: “Even Ve-Vegeta absolutely can’t scratch that thing…”

http://youtu.be/E_pIOy5cdl0?t=1m23s < So Piccolo wasn't there for the fight huh? Are you sure you are reading the right manga or watching the right anime?

That's silly Logic, and it contradicts what is written in the guidebooks - therefore it's false. All we know that is Fatbuu beat the boys, and the boys are weaker. Again, everything else beyond that is your theory (which I don't recognize as legitimate.)

Wow, you really are dense. The fact that Base Gotenks survives a confrontation with Fat Boo with minor injuries is a FEAT where exactly do the guidebooks contradict Base Gotenks being stronger than at least SSJ Gohan who was one-shotted by Boo? Please tell me. Please also tell me why a few hits from Fat Boo and SSJ2 Majin Vegeta was extremely hurt but Gotenks who has bruises and scrapes all over his body came back relatively fine. The guidebooks are vague. They don't state in whate area Gotenks has surpassed Vegeta and the others. It could be in transformations, it could be that Base Gotenks > Base Vegeta, it could be Base Gotenks > SSJ Vegeta it could be Base Gotenks > SSJ2 Vegeta. It could be SSJ Gotenks > SSJ2 Vegeta. It could even be SSJ3 > SSJ2 Vegeta. There is no way of determining what they meant as they kept it very vague in the guidebooks.

Hitiro - seriously, No more of your fan theories. Just argue with me based on what is written - I don't care to argue scenarios you made up, especially when it goes against the guidebooks/anime/manga, enough is enough.

I'm sorry, but it is you who's making up stuff.

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

Goku stating Evil Boo is stronger. Your answer "Goku is lying." < No proof.

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!”
Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”
Vegeta: “Eh?”
Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.”
Vegeta: “One minute?!”
Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!”
Vegeta: “…S …So you weren’t thinking of me…”

Goku saying he can wipe out Pure Boo if he can gather his ki for about a minute meaning SSJ3 Goku > Pure Boo and meaning Evil Boo > SSJ3 Goku > Pure Boo. Your answer "Pure Boo is stronger."

[The Monkey King]

@Hitiro you are 100% correct, but some people are just stubborn Goku fanboys.

Buff Boo>Super Boo>Kid Buu
Gohan>Gotenks>Goku

It's literally this simple but some people refuse to accept it.

[TheMightyOzaru]

deleted

[dbzfan7]

@Hitiro you are 100% correct, but some people are just stubborn Goku fanboys.

Buff Boo>Super Boo>Kid Buu
Gohan>Gotenks>Goku

It's literally this simple but some people refuse to accept it.

I think the 3 of us can agree on that like so

Don't you mean:
Buff Buu > Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > Super Buu > SSJ3 Goku > Kid Buu?

I would personally have it Gohan>Buff Boo>SSJ3 Gotenks>=<Super Boo>SSJ3 Goku>Kid Boo

[RandomGuy96]

Buff Buu in my opinion is, at most, equal to Gotenks.

[dbzfan7]

Buff Buu in my opinion is, at most, equal to Gotenks.

Super Boo is practically equal to Gotenks. Super Boo doesn't even acknowledge Gotenks as superior. IMO they're equals and either could beat each other depending on the circumstance.

Chapter: 499 (DBZ 305), P12.2-4
Gohan: “…That was dirty, you bastard…You ingested the two of them into yourself…”
Boo: “It’s your fault. You were stronger than I, who should have been the absolute strongest…When I sensed your distant presence, I started up on this strategy…In case maybe, just maybe, there was anyone stronger than myself…Then I hit upon it: if I absorbed that ‘Super Gotenks’ squirt I was fighting at the time, then no matter what kind of guy appeared, my throne as the strongest would not be shaken…”

He talks about Gotenks as someone not stronger then him. He only acknowledges Gohan as superior.

Chapter: 495 (DBZ 301), P6.1-3, P7.1-3
Context: after Gotenks blasts Boo with the Rapid-Fire Die-Die Missiles and Piccolo stops him
Gotenks: “Well, whatever. I already did quite a lot, after all. He should be pretty weakened.”
*Boo comes out*
Gotenks: “…He ain’t weakened…This really pisses me off!”
Piccolo: “N-no…He is weakened…I don’t know about physically, but he’s weakened a little mentally…! Th-this is the first time…that he’s fought someone strong like you…He’s feeling flustered by someone whose strength is at least on par with his own…”
Gotenks: “Dehhehheh! So in other words, Majin Boo’s freaked out, huh!? That’s right! My strength ain’t half-assed! I’m the best in the universe!”
Piccolo: “Don’t let your guard down! He’ll be coming at you frantically now…!”
Gotenks: “Dahhahhah, that’s no problem, no problem at all! That’s just what I was hoping for!”


Piccolo also says Gotenks is at least on par with Boo. I think Piccolo means they are close in power so either could win.

I think Buff Boo is a significant increase from Super Boo, but not enough to completely demolish Gotenks. We don't know how much stronger Buff Boo was compared to Super.

[RandomGuy96]

I think Gotenks is only slightly stronger than Super Buu, like maybe 10%, since he clearly would've won several times if not for Buu's regeneration and the fusion limit. I don't see Buff Buu as that much stronger than Super Buu in the first place, since Goku was unsure if his energy was rising, and Super Buu had next to no Dai Kaioshin influence in the first place.

Also, Piccolo said "at least on par", kind of implying he was going with the lowest estimate for Gotenks and still had him equal to Super Buu.

[dbzfan7]

I think Gotenks is only slightly stronger than Super Buu, like maybe 10%, since he clearly would've won several times if not for Buu's regeneration and the fusion limit. I don't see Buff Buu as that much stronger than Super Buu in the first place, since Goku was unsure if his energy was rising, and Super Buu had next to no Dai Kaioshin influence in the first place.

Also, Piccolo said "at least on par", kind of implying he was going with the lowest estimate for Gotenks and still had him equal to Super Buu.

Pretty good way to look at it. I treat them as equals or at most Gotenks is 5% stronger, but not enough to kill Super Boo unless he gets a good moment to obliterate him. Buff Boo could be placed anywhere above Super Boo since it ain't described how much stronger he got. I think it was enough to Surpass Gotenks by a little bit since Goku wasn't blown away by his increasing Ki.

[Amuro Ray]

This is hilarious -

Wow, you really are blind, lol. Piccolo never makes any suggestion that SSJ isn't enough. Piccolo only says they aren't powerful enough to beat Fat Boo without SSJ. Going by what is stated then SSJ Gotenks is AT LEAST near SSJ2 Majin Vegeta otherwise Piccolo would have said something. You can't argue with that.

Piccolo never makes any suggestion that SSJ WILL be enough. Therefore SSJ < Vegeta.
See how weak that logic is, just because something isn't explicitly stated, doesn't mean whatever theory you create is automatically true.

If Base Gotenks is > Base Goku then it is clear that SSJ3 Gotenks is > SSJ3 Goku. Its obvious. You are just too stubborn to see that.

Because it's not stated anywhere. Quite simply, you made it up.

Wrong, they only used the Earthlings energy, Nameks and Enma Daiou and his workers. They didn't use the whole universe. You clearly need to read the manga or watch the anime again. And again Goku NEVER suggests Gohan and Gotenks help were needed to fight. What Goku said was they would both be brought back to life so they would be able to fight. He never says "so they can both fight." You need to learn to read a sentence.

Irony:

Strength Checker wrote:
Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P7.4
Context: after Vegeta has the Earth brought back with the dragonballs
Goku: “Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight.”
Vegeta: “No.”

Looks like he did say that.

So I guess Piccolo was wrong about Majin Vegeta's power too then? Piccolo must also have been wrong when he tried to stop Gotenks from fighting Fat Boo without SSJ as he basically said they aren't powerful enough in base form to beat Fat Boo. And I also guess Piccolo was wrong about pre-RoSaT Gotenks not being able to beat Evil Boo? Piccolo knows how strong SSJ2 Majin Vegeta is, he would NEVER entertain the idea that SSJ Gotenks might have a chance against Fat Boo if SSJ Gotenks < SSJ Vegeta. Piccolo has been right more times than he has been wrong. Fact.

Piccolo wasn't seen endorsing SSJ Gotenks fighting Buu. Period.

Wow, you really are dense. The fact that Base Gotenks survives a confrontation with Fat Boo with minor injuries is a FEAT where exactly do the guidebooks contradict Base Gotenks being stronger than at least SSJ Gohan who was one-shotted by Boo? Please tell me. Please all tell me why a few hits from Fat Boo and SSJ2 Majin Vegeta was extremely hurt but Gotenks who has bruises and scrapes all over his body came back relatively fine. The guidebooks are vague. They don't state in whate area Gotenks has surpassed Vegeta and the others. It could be in transformations, it could be that Base Gotenks > Base Vegeta, it could be Base Gotenks > SSJ Vegeta it could be Base Gotenks > SSJ2 Vegeta. It could be SSJ Gotenks > SSJ2 Vegeta. It could even be SSJ3 > SSJ2 Vegeta. There is no way of determining what they meant as they kept it very vague in the guidebooks.

Gohan, the Supreme Kai, a blind human, and Satan all survived an encounter with Buu, does that mean they are stronger? We don't know the details of the fight, you can't just make something up to fit your narrative.

[Draken]

Amuro you kinda just ignored all the new points Hitiro brought up to taunt him and say he missed some information...

[Hitiro]

Piccolo never makes any suggestion that SSJ WILL be enough. Therefore SSJ < Vegeta.
See how weak that logic is, just because something isn't explicitly stated, doesn't mean whatever theory you create is automatically true.

Piccolo never suggests SSJ wouldn't be enough. If he believed SSJ Gotenks wasn't strong enough he would have said something like he did when Gotenks charged off in his base form:

Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P11.4-5
Context: after Piccolo says to try Fusion again, as Super Saiyans
Gotenks: “Hehhehheh…Aren’t you underestimating me? Like this, I’m more than enough to defeat Majin Boo.”
Piccolo: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! You don’t know anything about Majin Boo’s fearsomeness! No matter how incredible you may be, at that level there’s still absolutely no way you’d be able to win!”

If Base Gotenks is > Base Goku then it is clear that SSJ3 Gotenks is > SSJ3 Goku. Its obvious. You are just too stubborn to see that.

Because it's not stated anywhere. Quite simply, you made it up.

I'm not making up anything, I am merely offering a interpretation to the Daizenshuu bio on Gotenks which you keep ignoring. The bio on Gotenks says

The two entered the Room of Spirit and Time, and hurriedly trained as Gotenks. As a result, Gotenks leveled up so much that his strength surpassed Vegeta and the others.

If this is talking about Base Gotenks and Base Vegeta then SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku because Base Gotenks > Base Vegeta and Base Vegeta = Base Goku as stated by Goku himself.

Strength Checker wrote:
Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P7.4
Context: after Vegeta has the Earth brought back with the dragonballs
Goku: “Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight.”
Vegeta: “No.”

Looks like he did say that.

I read that perfectly so there is no irony, grow up. All Goku is saying here is they would be both brought back to life so they can fight. Goku NEVER says together. You are the only one implying that Goku means using them both to fight Boo, if Goku wanted to say that they would both fight he would have said something like "Oh, I know! You'll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight together." Or "Oh, I know! You'll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can both fight."

So I guess Piccolo was wrong about Majin Vegeta's power too then? Piccolo must also have been wrong when he tried to stop Gotenks from fighting Fat Boo without SSJ as he basically said they aren't powerful enough in base form to beat Fat Boo. And I also guess Piccolo was wrong about pre-RoSaT Gotenks not being able to beat Evil Boo? Piccolo knows how strong SSJ2 Majin Vegeta is, he would NEVER entertain the idea that SSJ Gotenks might have a chance against Fat Boo if SSJ Gotenks < SSJ Vegeta. Piccolo has been right more times than he has been wrong. Fact.

Piccolo wasn't seen endorsing SSJ Gotenks fighting Buu. Period.

Piccolo never said it was hopeless. If you honestly believe Base Vegeta > Base Gotenks then the fact of the matter is Piccolo would have said something. You keep ignoring this fact to suit your own beliefs. Its getting tiring.

Gohan, the Supreme Kai, a blind human, and Satan all survived an encounter with Buu, does that mean they are stronger? We don't know the details of the fight, you can't just make something up to fit your narrative.

Hmm, lets break this down:

Gohan - One-shot by a ki blast. Saved by the Kaioshin from being INSTANTLY killed by Fat Boo's attack and almost died anyway if Kibito hadn't healed him. Result if there was no interference: Gohan would have died.
Kaioshin - Technically Saved by SSJ2 Majin Vegeta from being killed. Kibito also heals his wounds before he died from them. Result if there was no interference: Kaioshin would have died.
Blind kid - Does nothing to provoke Boo into killing him. Dies anyway when Evil Boo kills all the weaker humans on the planet.
Mr. Satan - Does nothing to provoke Boo into killing him. Befriends him and is in essence saved multiple times due to Good Boo.
Gotenks - Beaten up all over, so the fight had to be close combat and he was attacked all over. He had no outside help to help him escape Fat Boo, he had to do it himself. He would have to have speed exceeding at least SSJ Gohan for him to escape safely and that is being cheap, he probably would have needed a lot more speed than SSJ Gohan's to escape. His wounds were superficial, he was attacked many times by Fat Boo, hence all the wounds ALL over his body, yet he wasn't overly hurt.

Using characters who have escaped being killed by Boo because they've either been saved by other characters or befriended Fat Boo is not an argument. Gotenks had nobody to rely on but himself and Fat Boo would have had all his attention on him unless by some miraculous coincidence a secret character appeared to help Gotenks out and draw Fat Boo's attention while Gotenks escaped. As far as feats go Base Gotenks is above Gohan by the sheer fact he wasn't one-shot to near death and wasn't beaten practically to death like the Kaioshin. You can argue this all you want but I don't have make up some narrative to know what happened. Gotenks had his ass handed to him, but none of Fat Boo's attacks were fatal because Gotenks is strong enough to tank them. That is it, there is no other way to look at it considering the actual battle damage we see on him. It was a one-sided beat-down that Gotenks escaped, that in itself is a feat that outranks SSJ2 Majin Vegeta's and SSJ Gohans considering Gotenks has the least damage having had a beat-down.

[Amuro Ray]

Amuro you kinda just ignored all the new points Hitiro brought up to taunt him and say he missed some information...

Not really, he repeats the same thing continuously and makes up information - it's impossible for me to argue his hypothetical scenarios.

[Amuro Ray]

Piccolo never makes any suggestion that SSJ WILL be enough. Therefore SSJ < Vegeta.
See how weak that logic is, just because something isn't explicitly stated, doesn't mean whatever theory you create is automatically true.

Piccolo never suggests SSJ wouldn't be enough. If he believed SSJ Gotenks wasn't strong enough he would have said something like he did when Gotenks charged off in his base form:

Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P11.4-5
Context: after Piccolo says to try Fusion again, as Super Saiyans
Gotenks: “Hehhehheh…Aren’t you underestimating me? Like this, I’m more than enough to defeat Majin Boo.”
Piccolo: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! You don’t know anything about Majin Boo’s fearsomeness! No matter how incredible you may be, at that level there’s still absolutely no way you’d be able to win!”

This was in response on what you said about Fatbuu. Go back and re-read what you wrote, THEN read my response.

If Base Gotenks is > Base Goku then it is clear that SSJ3 Gotenks is > SSJ3 Goku. Its obvious. You are just too stubborn to see that.

Because it's not stated anywhere. Quite simply, you made it up.

I'm not making up anything, I am merely offering a interpretation to the Daizenshuu bio on Gotenks which you keep ignoring. The bio on Gotenks says

The two entered the Room of Spirit and Time, and hurriedly trained as Gotenks. As a result, Gotenks leveled up so much that his strength surpassed Vegeta and the others.

If this is talking about Base Gotenks and Base Vegeta then SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku because Base Gotenks > Base Vegeta and Base Vegeta = Base Goku as stated by Goku himself.

I don't care, I don't know how many times we have to go through this - it doesn't say anything about Base Gotenks or SSJ or the like - it simply states outright his strength surpasses Vegeta and the others. Goku isn't mentioned, and honestly, why NOT mention Goku, if Goku is without a doubt stronger than Vegeta. There really is no point in mentioning Vegeta at all.

Strength Checker wrote:
Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P7.4
Context: after Vegeta has the Earth brought back with the dragonballs
Goku: “Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight.”
Vegeta: “No.”

Looks like he did say that.

I read that perfectly so there is no irony, grow up. All Goku is saying here is they would be both brought back to life so they can fight. Goku NEVER says together. You are the only one implying that Goku means using them both to fight Boo, if Goku wanted to say that they would both fight he would have said something like "Oh, I know! You'll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight together." Or "Oh, I know! You'll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can both fight."

ONE MORE TIME. Why would he suggest bringing BOTH Gotenks and Gohan, if Gohan, who we know to be stronger, could beat this supposedly weaker Buu? I never mentioned or inferred that he asked them both to fight Buu simultaneously, and if that's what you believed, I'm sorry.

So I guess Piccolo was wrong about Majin Vegeta's power too then? Piccolo must also have been wrong when he tried to stop Gotenks from fighting Fat Boo without SSJ as he basically said they aren't powerful enough in base form to beat Fat Boo. And I also guess Piccolo was wrong about pre-RoSaT Gotenks not being able to beat Evil Boo? Piccolo knows how strong SSJ2 Majin Vegeta is, he would NEVER entertain the idea that SSJ Gotenks might have a chance against Fat Boo if SSJ Gotenks < SSJ Vegeta. Piccolo has been right more times than he has been wrong. Fact.

Piccolo wasn't seen endorsing SSJ Gotenks fighting Buu. Period.

Piccolo never said it was hopeless. If you honestly believe Base Vegeta > Base Gotenks then the fact of the matter is Piccolo would have said something. You keep ignoring this fact to suit your own beliefs. Its getting tiring.

Gohan, the Supreme Kai, a blind human, and Satan all survived an encounter with Buu, does that mean they are stronger? We don't know the details of the fight, you can't just make something up to fit your narrative.

Hmm, lets break this down:

It doesn't matter what your opinion of the subject matter is - based on your theory of the matter, everyone Vegeta's strength level and lower has died when facing Buu, and these boys didn't. That would mean the boys in base form are stronger than Vegeta as SSJ2, and as SSJ would far surpass him - that would mean the daizenshuu is wrong in saying the boys became stronger than Vegeta and the others AFTER training, furthermore it doesn't take into a account that this form of BUU can't sense KI, meaing techniques like the Solar Flare and hiding can possibly be effective.

No matter what, nothing of that sort is stated and your theory is foolishness and a non starter in my book. As a general rule going forward, keep to the 3 forms of media or don't mention it, it's impossible to argue with you when you are making up things to support your opinion...then again, I guess that could be the point.

[Draken]

You tell him he's making things up then blatantly do the same in an even greater extreme. "I'm right because Goku lied, though it was never once brought up or backed up." Also anime. You don't use anime in a debate (unless both sides are agreeing to it, in which case the debate gets even messier from the outright contradictory anime) As has been stated, in a debate as nit-picky as this, you stick the original as much as you can, in this case a direct translation to the language we are speaking in from the original source material, written by the most credible source, the author. You keep saying things like "this is also backed up when it happens in the anime", but both sides have not agreed to use the anime, so you can't use the anime in this debate.

I don't care, I don't know how many times we have to go through this - it doesn't say anything about Base Gotenks or SSJ or the like - it simply states outright his strength surpasses Vegeta and the others. Goku isn't mentioned, and honestly, why NOT mention Goku, if Goku is without a doubt stronger than Vegeta. There really is no point in mentioning Vegeta at all.

First off, great debate attitude lol... Second off, Goku is NOT without a doubt stronger than Vegeta at equal levels. Which is how he is interpreting this statement. Vegeta and Goku at base is equal. At SSJ they are equal. At SSJ2 they are equal (stated). At hypothetical SSJ3, well what do you know, logic says they would be equal. So Vegeta and Goku are equal. Goku is not without a doubt stronger than Vegeta. So there is really no point in mentioning Goku at all.

[Amuro Ray]

You tell him he's making things up then blatantly do the same in an even greater extreme. "I'm right because Goku lied, though it was never once brought up or backed up." Also anime. You don't use anime in a debate (unless both sides are agreeing to it, in which case the debate gets even messier from the outright contradictory anime) As has been stated, in a debate as nit-picky as this, you stick the original as much as you can, in this case a direct translation to the language we are speaking in from the original source material, written by the most credible source, the author. You keep saying things like "this is also backed up when it happens in the anime", but both sides have not agreed to use the anime, so you can't use the anime in this debate.

I'm only using the Anime IF it agrees with what is stated in the Manga, unless that isn't true - then you may correct me.

I don't care, I don't know how many times we have to go through this - it doesn't say anything about Base Gotenks or SSJ or the like - it simply states outright his strength surpasses Vegeta and the others. Goku isn't mentioned, and honestly, why NOT mention Goku, if Goku is without a doubt stronger than Vegeta. There really is no point in mentioning Vegeta at all.

First off, great debate attitude lol... Second off, Goku is NOT without a doubt stronger than Vegeta at equal levels. Which is how he is interpreting this statement. Vegeta and Goku at base is equal. At SSJ they are equal. At SSJ2 they are equal (stated). At hypothetical SSJ3, well what do you know, logic says they would be equal. So Vegeta and Goku are equal. Goku is not without a doubt stronger than Vegeta. So there is really no point in mentioning Goku at all.

I don't care what he's trying to argue to be honest, because what he is stating simply isn't inferred in the statement presented or in the actual story. For the record, I don't appreciate the snide comments being made at my expense - if you want to come off as objective you should attempt to be fair in your assessment of attitudes.

And I'll create a scenario for you: 3 is greater than 2...does this also mean that 3 is greater that 4?