Base Saiyans and Freeza

[Mjb1985]

There are limits to physical strength. I would think Kibito and Base Gohan are far beyond that threshold. You need your ki power to lift this sword.

They weren't only referring to Kid Buu's size. They were referring to his ki as well. Kid Buu has weakened a great deal from his Buff Buu power and now they are happy and talking nonsensical trash.

[dbzfan7]

Guys don't bring the Boo argument back. You know what happened last time right.

[Mjb1985]

Haha yea you are right. The issue is so blatantly obvious it's not worth my time debating. And good lord if I get sucked into one of those again. Sheesh!

[TheMightyOzaru]

Base Gohan was able to lift it and swing it as well. I find the Zeta Sword exchange to be a direct contradiction to the Daiz commentary regarding Kibito and Gohan. So I don't accept it.

It's possible Kibito is that strong during the Budokai I will admit. But he is seriously downgraded as the saga continues. I think AT kind of goes one way and then later is like meh, let me to this way.

Umm, again, Base Goku lifted and swung the Z-Sword around with no prior training where as it took SSJ Gohan just to remove it from the pedestal. Is Goku stronger than SSJ Gohan? No. Gohan could also be a lot stronger physically than Kibito. While it may seem unlikely at first, what with Kibito's size and all, it's certainly possible. I can assure you that Kibito cannot lift 2 tons on each limb in the air.

[Kamiccolo9]

Guys don't bring the Boo argument back. You know what happened last time right.

This is just for fun. I'm not being entirely serious

There are limits to physical strength. I would think Kibito and Base Gohan are far beyond that threshold. You need your ki power to lift this sword.

Gohan is specifically stated to get stronger from swinging the sword around. It makes sense to think that they are talking about physical strength, since swinging a heavy sword around shouldn't really increase one's ki. Goku also does strength training in Heaven, although he adds flying to it in order to make it more difficult. Regardless, we don't know if they've managed to reach the limits of their physical strength yet. And going Super Saiyan obviously makes you physically stronger as well, as seen in Goku's training, and Gohan's pulling out the sword in the first place. Kaioshin was for sure stronger than base Gohan, at least in power, yet he knew that he couldn't lift the sword.

They weren't only referring to Kid Buu's size. They were referring to his ki as well. Kid Buu has weakened a great deal from his Buff Buu power and now they are happy and talking nonsensical trash.

That's an assumption. The line that Vegeta uses is always used in this series to mean physical size.

Haha yea you are right. The issue is so blatantly obvious it's not worth my time debating. And good lord if I get sucked into one of those again. Sheesh!

The Buu thing is just an example that I picked to respond to your post saying that Kibito was made weaker later in the arc just because Toryama felt like it. I'm just trying to show that that's not really a valid argument.

[Mjb1985]

I don't think holding the sword and pulling it out are the same thing. It's much easier to hold it than to pull it out. Base Gohan is able to barely hold the sword basically immediately after breaking his butt to pull it out with his Super Saiyan. If anything that supports the not only strength needed to pull out the sword theory.

[RandomGuy96]

If lifting feats determine power then base Trunks is only as strong as Captain Ginyu because he couldn't lift x150 his body weight. And base Vegeta is below 450,000.

[Kamiccolo9]

I don't think holding the sword and pulling it out are the same thing. It's much easier to hold it than to pull it out. Base Gohan is able to barely hold the sword basically immediately after breaking his butt to pull it out with his Super Saiyan. If anything that supports the not only strength needed to pull out the sword theory.

Except going Super Saiyan does increase strength. At least by 5x, as seen with Goku and his weights.

[Mjb1985]

Gravity doesn't work that way imo. Yamcha wasn't even able to catch Bubbles in 10x gravity in which nothing suggests Bubbles is anything more than your average monkey, meanwhile Yamcha has a battle power at least on par with Raditz.

So gravity feats don't work the same as pure lifting feats imo.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Gravity makes you heavy... That's how things work.

[Kaboom]

If you want to get specific, the Daizenshuu entry in question only notes that Kibito's "battle power," which means level/amount of ki, is high enough for him to pose a challenge for Gohan. So if you don't want to write it off as being just for laughs, the apparent contradiction within the Z-Sword exchange could easily be explained as just a stark difference in physical strength.

It would make sense, considering Saiyans are a brutish race built for battle, while the Kaio and Kaioshin are likely more of a "mystical" and perhaps typically frail race (plus, Kibito seems to be pretty old). So even if Gohan and Kibito are roughly the same in terms of ki, their other assorted attributes could be balanced very differently.

[dbzfan7]

Honestly I would say Goku is slightly stronger than Freeza since that's how my battle powers scaled come this movie. Also, Goku did say he was only using 80% battle power against Beers as a SSJ God during a fight so it wouldn't shock me if Goku was only at 50-80% power in front of Beers. Either way though the base Saiyan's, more specifically Goku and Vegeta, are around Freeza.

Whether they are suppressed or not I like to think they are around Full Power Freeza. Though we don't really know an exact level.

[Draken]

There are limits to physical strength. I would think Kibito and Base Gohan are far beyond that threshold. You need your ki power to lift this sword.

They weren't only referring to Kid Buu's size. They were referring to his ki as well. Kid Buu has weakened a great deal from his Buff Buu power and now they are happy and talking nonsensical trash.

No they aren't. In Japan and in the strength checker it's specifically noted that the focus was on Buu's side. They COULD have been referring to his ki as well, but it's not explicitly stated.

-> Also playing Devil's Advocate, because you're choosing to accept something for your belief but then not accepting something similar because it goes against your belief, kinda contradictory.

Edit: Not late :awe:

Bt I agree, lifting feats/gravity in DBZ have never been shown to be an indicator of one's true strength.

[Kamiccolo9]

There are limits to physical strength. I would think Kibito and Base Gohan are far beyond that threshold. You need your ki power to lift this sword.

They weren't only referring to Kid Buu's size. They were referring to his ki as well. Kid Buu has weakened a great deal from his Buff Buu power and now they are happy and talking nonsensical trash.

No they aren't. In Japan and in the strength checker it's specifically noted that the focus was on Buu's side. They COULD have been referring to his ki as well, but it's not explicitly stated.

-> Also playing Devil's Advocate, because you're choosing to accept something for your belief but then not accepting something similar because it goes against your belief, kinda contradictory.

It feels kinda odd being on the Pure Buu side for once, doesn't it? I feel unclean.

[Draken]

There are limits to physical strength. I would think Kibito and Base Gohan are far beyond that threshold. You need your ki power to lift this sword.

They weren't only referring to Kid Buu's size. They were referring to his ki as well. Kid Buu has weakened a great deal from his Buff Buu power and now they are happy and talking nonsensical trash.

No they aren't. In Japan and in the strength checker it's specifically noted that the focus was on Buu's side. They COULD have been referring to his ki as well, but it's not explicitly stated.

-> Also playing Devil's Advocate, because you're choosing to accept something for your belief but then not accepting something similar because it goes against your belief, kinda contradictory.

It feels kinda odd being on the Pure Buu side for once, doesn't it? I feel unclean.

Dude I know right But you gotta give both sides a chance haha. There is a way you can see the other side same way you can see our side.

[RandomGuy96]

Gravity doesn't work that way imo. Yamcha wasn't even able to catch Bubbles in 10x gravity in which nothing suggests Bubbles is anything more than your average monkey, meanwhile Yamcha has a battle power at least on par with Raditz.

It's almost like what you can lift =/= power level, huh? Almost like it's absurd for people who can destroy stars a wave of their hand to be struggling with lifting such tiny things? Like a moon buster struggling to lift ten times his own body weight? Also, didn't Freeza lift a mountain with ease? That would logically make him many times stronger than Buu Saga Goku, who couldn't lift 40 tons.-

Higher gravity makes you heavier. That's it.

[Draken]

Gravity doesn't work that way imo. Yamcha wasn't even able to catch Bubbles in 10x gravity in which nothing suggests Bubbles is anything more than your average monkey, meanwhile Yamcha has a battle power at least on par with Raditz.

It's almost like what you can lift =/= power level, huh? Also, didn't Freeza lift a mountain with ease? That would logically make him many times stronger than Buu Saga Goku, who couldn't lift 40 tons.-

It was a huge ass piece of rock weighing over 40 tons for sure but he did it with his mind or something.

[RandomGuy96]

Ah, but as it is shown psychic powers are stronger depending on power level. So Freeza's strength feats >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Goku's strength feats and since better lifting feats equals better power level Freeza >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Goku.

Also, going by the gravity feats, and the fact that Ginyu Saga Goku (90,000) was able to stand in x100 gravity with ease:

25% Freeza (30,000,000) > 22,500,000 (theoretical base saiyan who can stand x500 gravity + Super Saiyan) > Super Saiyan Vegeta (Buu Saga) >>>> 6,750,000 (theoretical base saiyan that can stand x150 gravity + Super Saiyan) > Super Saiyan Trunks > first form Freeza (530,000) > x500 gravity (450,000 required) > base Vegeta (Buu Saga) > x150 gravity (135,000 required) > base Trunks = Captain Ginyu (120,000)

Vegeta admitted that he'd have a lot trouble in x500 gravity (to Pui Pui) and Trunks wasn't able to stand in x150 gravity without Super Saiyan. Therefore Freeza pwns the Buu Saga SS2 Vegeta and Goku at 100% power.

[Saiyan Prince Vegeta]

Vegeta admitted that he'd have a lot trouble in x500 gravity (to Pui Pui) and Trunks wasn't able to stand in x150 gravity without Super Saiyan. Therefore Freeza pwns the Buu Saga SS2 Vegeta and Goku at 100% power.

Vegeta didn't say anything like that in the manga.

Chapter: 449 (DBZ 255), P11.2-3
Context: after Vegeta and Pui-Pui are teleported to Planet Zun
Pui-Pui: “Haah, haah, this is it for you! Th-the gravity here is 10 times that of Earth…! I was raised here!”
Vegeta: “So what?...I can’t even feel a mere x10 gravity…”

[Bussani]

It's almost like what you can lift =/= power level, huh? Almost like it's absurd for people who can destroy stars a wave of their hand to be struggling with lifting such tiny things? Like a moon buster struggling to lift ten times his own body weight?

It's not like they destroy stars and moons using their lifting strength.

Ah, but as it is shown psychic powers are stronger depending on power level.

But that doesn't mean psychic powers and muscles lift the same amount.