Will You Be Buying The "Rock The Dragon" DVD Box Set?

[ABED]

I get it, when you strongly believe something, it can seem like "how come everyone doesn't see it my way?!" You like Kelamis's Goku, I don't.

[Cursed Lemon]

I thought both Corlett and Kelamis did stellar jobs with handling Goku's voice. Corlett did have a calm delivery, but Goku is very much a solid rock by nature in early DBZ, yet Ian was great where it counted - see the entire Vegeta battle.

Kelamis in World's Strongest is excellent as well, he managed to make a higher-pitched Goku sound equally as badass and was obviously paying homage to Goku's Japanese timbre.

[penguintruth]

Kelamis didn't bring out any personality because he wasn't good in the role. He might be good in other parts but Goku wasn't one of them. So many of his line readings were unnatural.

Incorrect. Kelamis brought out a lot of Goku's free spirit and quirkiness. Corlett could send somebody into a coma with his lackluster sound and delivery.

It might be bland, but at least he doesn't sound unnatural. It's not the best, but I enjoy it for what it is. The cadence of Kelamis's delivery is contrived.

Kelamis has a more spritely sound to him, very Nozawa-ish. And thus his superiority in the role. Granted, he wasn't flawless, but leagues over boring Corlett.

Goku is about quirky personality. One of these VAs captures that (Kelamis), the other (Corlett) doesn't. It can't be any simpler.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxA1G1v-Y-I

vs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SoztQ9uRx0

[ABED]

Kelamis has a more spritely sound to him, very Nozawa-ish. And thus his superiority in the role. Granted, he wasn't flawless, but leagues over boring Corlett.

Goku is about quirky personality. One of these VAs captures that (Kelamis), the other (Corlett) doesn't. It can't be any simpler.

Nozawa has talent, but Kelamis doesn't as Goku. It couldn't be simpler than that. Saying he wasn't flawless is putting it mildly. He doesn't sound spritely, he sounds like a guy trying to sound spritely.

I'd rather a good performance that doesn't quite get the character than one that has the right personality but is so awful and unnatural. I can't stand it.

[penguintruth]

The only thing natural about Corlett is that he causes people to naturally slip into a deep coma with his delivery.

[Metalwario64]

I've always liked Kelamis more than Corlett. Even as a kid, when I couldn't really tell the quality of a performance, I liked Kelamis more when he first started voicing Goku, even though I couldn't tell you why at the time.

He's more dynamic, and really captures Goku's essence. I think Kai Schemmel is overall better, but these days I think Kelamis from the Saban days and Pioneer film dubs is better than Schemmel 'till Kai. It's a shame he wasn't around long enough to develop his performance like Schemmel, but what we got was great. That is, until the Westwood Media dub... In my opinion, Schemmel, who was still green at that point in the Z dub was better than the experienced Kelamis at that same point.

[ABED]

But to truely capture any character's essence, you need to be a good actor, and Kelamis isn't that, at least not in any role I've heard him in. I think Sean got him by the Buu arc, and it helps that the scripts got more accurate by that point as well.

We're going around in circles now, and Penguin is being his usual cantankerous self.

[penguintruth]

Schemmel didn't even get the basics of Goku until just before Kai. Like there was a fundamental misunderstanding of the character on even a conceptual level. Even now it's unclear whether he gets him or not, given some of his interviews. And the Buu arc still had terrible scripts, don't give me that nonsense that it "got better" in the Buu arc. It got tolerable at best.

But if Chris Sabat had gotten what Goku was about when casting, he never would have cast Schemmel in the first place. Over a decade is a long time to wait for a payoff.

[Kamiccolo9]

Schemmel didn't even get the basics of Goku until just before Kai. Like there was a fundamental misunderstanding of the character on even a conceptual level. Even now it's unclear whether he gets him or not, given some of his interviews. And the Buu arc still had terrible scripts, don't give me that nonsense that it "got better" in the Buu arc. It got tolerable at best.

Can you give some examples of what was wrong with the Buu Arc script? I generally hear that it is pretty accurate to the original.

[ABED]

Schemmel didn't even get the basics of Goku until just before Kai. Like there was a fundamental misunderstanding of the character on even a conceptual level. Even now it's unclear whether he gets him or not, given some of his interviews. And the Buu arc still had terrible scripts, don't give me that nonsense that it "got better" in the Buu arc. It got tolerable at best.

But if Chris Sabat had gotten what Goku was about when casting, he never would have cast Schemmel in the first place.

"don't give me that..." Are you angry? Who am I kidding, of course you are.

And why does this all fall on the actors? Voice actors generally do what they are told, so if you have a problem with a take on the character blame the writers and the director. Sean sounded like a superhero because that's how he was told to deliver his lines. Given the crap he had to spew in season 3, I don't know how it could've come out any other way. You think it took Sean 10 years, I don't. I'm not gonna argue that point since we've been down that road.

Chris was doing what he was told, and I don't think he cast Goku. I'm almost certain Barry Watson did.

Kamicollo, I can't remember specifics, the Buu arc isn't without it's issues, however the scripts are far better than season 3 and early season 4.

[penguintruth]

Schemmel didn't even get the basics of Goku until just before Kai. Like there was a fundamental misunderstanding of the character on even a conceptual level. Even now it's unclear whether he gets him or not, given some of his interviews. And the Buu arc still had terrible scripts, don't give me that nonsense that it "got better" in the Buu arc. It got tolerable at best.

Can you give some examples of what was wrong with the Buu Arc script? I generally hear that it is pretty accurate to the original.

Glad you asked.

Take the scene wherein Vegeta has just killed some of the audience of the Tenkaichi Budoukai.

In the Japanese version, Goku trembles wordlessly at this ghastly and brazen act Vegeta has just committed until he can whisper but the slightest, "Vegeta..." Vegeta smirks in response.

In the English version, Goku sees fit to admonish Vegeta like a little child. "Shame on you. The Vegeta I know never would have done this."

Childish.

[ABED]

That line is still nowhere near the frequent level of obnoxiousness during the Freeza arc. And "childish" is the wrong word in that context. I don't remember kids admonishing each other like that.

[penguintruth]

JP

(Vegeta watches Goku fight Kid Buu, and thinks about the past)

Vegeta (thinking): However, in the end, I was unable to surpass you. At first I thought it was because you had something to protect- that having a strong mind towards defending something gave rise to some mysterious power. That might be true, but then it would have been the same for me, now. It was to have my own way, it was for my own enjoyment, it was to kill my enemies, and it was for my own pride that I had fought. But Kakarot, you were different. You don't fight in order to win, you fight in order to be certain you do not lose, and in order to keep reaching your limits. That's why you don't worry about taking your opponents life. In the end, you never did kill me. It's as if you knew that I would now come to have the slightest bit of a heart. It's so maddening! That there should be a Saiyan who loves to fight, yet is kind! Hang in there, Kakarot! You are Number One!


ENG

(Vegeta watches Goku fight Kid Buu, and thinks about the past)

Vegeta (thinking): But no matter how strong I became, your power still exceeded mine. At first, I thought it was your loved ones. That it was your instinct to protect them that spurred you on and pushed you beyond your limits.
(Talk in the flashback that wasn't originally there, then returning to Vegeta)
Vegeta (cont.): But then I found myself with a family of my own and my power didn't increase at all. I used to fight for the sheer pleasure of it, for the thrill of the hunt, oh I had the strength unmmeasurable! I spared no one. And yet, you showed mercy to everyone. Even your fiercest enemies! Even me! Yet you never fought to kill, or for revenge, only to test your limits, to push yourself beyond them, to become the strongest you can possibly be. How can a Saiyan fight like that and yet be so gentle that he wouldn't hurt a fly? Oh, it makes me angry just thinking about it! But, perhaps it is my anger that's made me blind to the truth for so long. I see it now, this day has made it all too clear. You're better than me, Kakarot. You are the best.


Vegeta's laying it on a bit thick in the English version concerning Goku's mercy. Not to mention much more dialogue where there isn't any more needed (esp during what is mostly a silent flashback).

[ABED]

You think THAT'S laying it on thick? The wording is a bit different but they are practically identical in their meaning. I think you will find fault in the dub because you want to. To me, the mercy speech in the Saiyan arc, especially in the longer redub is laying it on thick. What makes that so much worse is that it wasn't what was said at all, whereas here, it's like one line which you could argue was a tad on the nose.

[penguintruth]

I'm finding fault because there is fault to be found. A lot.

[ABED]

I'm finding fault because there is fault to be found. A lot.

One line is not a lot. It's okay to criticise things but you will find fault with even the tinniest detail, such as one line that might be too on the nose.

[penguintruth]

I'm finding fault because there is fault to be found. A lot.

One line is not a lot.

You think I couldn't find more? Please.

[ABED]

I'm finding fault because there is fault to be found. A lot.

One line is not a lot.

You think I couldn't find more? Please.

Of course you could find more. DId I imply the Buu arc was perfect? No, my point was that the Buu arc's writing got much closer to the original. I know this for a fact because years ago, I watched the entire dub with japanese subtitles to compare, and Buu arce was a significant improvement. It's not Kai close, but still close. I wasn't asking you to find more, it's just that the line you point to to criticize is THAT?! There's dialog to point the finger at and scoff, and that ain't one of 'em.

On a scale of 1-10, with Kai ranging from 8 on a bad day, to 10, and the season 3 dub ranging from 0 to the occassional 2, the Buu arc averages out to around a 6. The episode where Vegeta blows himself up to kill Buu is excellent.

[Ringworm128]

While I actually like Sean Schemmel as Goku almost as much if not as much as Nozawa I find Corlett to be very wooden and bland. Sean Schemmel had only just started acting in 99 what's Corlett's excuse? He had a few good moments but most of the time he sounded dull and uninteresting. What's funny is that he sounded fine in the Megaman cartoon, if he had used a performance like that he could have made an ok-ish Goku.

[DBZ Mick]

I've seen a bit of the Ocean dub lately... I actually enjoyed Corlett's voice more than Schemmel, in terms of general voice. But he feels uninspired a lot of the time and I kept hearing Cheetor- just with a more older voice.