In defense of the Faulconer score

[kei17]

When people say Kikuchi is repetitive I think it's more to do with a lot of the pieces sounding like variations of the same thing than them meaning there's a limited number of tracks. Like everything sounds a little too similar. The Faulconer score has a different and distinct feel depending on the saga while Kikuchi pretty much feels the same throughout Z despite introducing new pieces.

I just listened to all those tracks and they weren't that slow (compared to most of the Japanese soundtrack) but damn they really do all sound mostly alike. There was hardly any variety in those tracks at all.

There's no tension there when it all sounds the same throughout. The Faulconer score actually had variety in it.

Those who say something like this should know that pieces of music can vary enough within the same genre, without using different instruments. The same goes for some Yamamoto score fans. It's as absurd as saying that Beethoven's works sound all the same because it's all classic music with the same orchestral instruments.

Also, Akira Ifukube is known as one of the greatest Japanese film score composers though his music had been literally the same for over half a century. Variety in composing style isn't what makes composers and their music great and catching.

[Kojiro Sasaki]

DBZ is an action sci fi show, old fashioned traditional music does not fit there. This show more than any tries to build up tension and hype for fights that are about to come and the Japanese score is not able to do that. The Faulconer score.

Kikuchi score is not traditional music. It is based on traditional music and it fits to this show perfectly. You don't like it - OK, but don't say that it doesn't fit.

Who else thinks that this track is not able to build up tension? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCUhcNmXkj8&t=155
For me, it multiplies the power of the original scene by 10.

There's no tension there when it all sounds the same throughout.

I totally disagree. There are tons of completely different tracks. If you are unable to feel the tension it does not mean that it isn't there.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Even when you say it's about the mood the Japanese score still pales there. None of it built any tension when DBZ was full of it. When most of the tracks sound the same it's hard to get the mood for the moment. The scores for games like Mario and Zelda they actually DO fit the mood of the game so it's not a problem. The scores for those games aren't outdated or repetitive, it's not the same.

There's some crap in Faulconers score but there's way more good than bad, it's score has variety and memorable tracks. The Japanese score has very few scores that stand out as good because you can hardly separate them from one another.

You say the rest of the world enjoys Kikuchi but it hasn't stopped the fact that in America they felt the need to replace the music. DBZ Kai also felt the need to replace the music. Battle of Gods also felt the need to go with a more modern and different kind of music.

I'm done with you. You are clearly incapable of comprehending something very simple.

[VegettoEX]

I'm done with you. You are clearly incapable of comprehending something very simple.

This is not an appropriate kind of response.

[cRookie_Monster]

My opinion is that the Japanese score is not based on traditional Japanese music at all, it's more related to 60s film music than anything else. The story is that cartoons in the 80s were scored mostly by jazz arrangers who had fallen out of popular favor so that's why 80s cartoon music doesn't sound 80s. More like 60s/70s depending on who did it. The 1986 Transformers movie? That's an actual 80s cartoon score. True traditional Japanese music sounds very different than any of the DB/DBZ/DBGT music.

I'm going to agree with the haters on the statement that the Faulconer score has a ton of filler in it. This is because we had to put in wall to wall music for every show. You can't put in super memorable music for every scene in the whole thing, it would sound even more frenetic and crazy than it already does. I personally wish we had played it a lot cooler and not "mickey moused" so much..that would have helped at least. Credit to Julius for coming in and making a stink about it(I learned the term from him), but unfortunately he and I only overlapped for a couple weeks. I love Mike, but he was the king of Mickey Mousing, and Bruce definitely encouraged it. Not that I'm innocent, I actually enjoy it sometimes...like matching imperfect cell's footsteps with menacing notes or hitting all the train shots with chugga chugga metal guitars in Driods vs Bikers

Anyway, there's a reason the most popular Faulconer tunes happen to coincide with big moments in the show. If we hadn't done wall to wall, the ratio of awesome music to crappy might have been a little better. I scored part of a PTETS fan dub back in 2008 or so. I never made a big deal out of certain tracks I did for that....like "The Plot Thickens" or "Landmines" because those scenes were quite forgettable, and frankly the music was too even though I thought what I did was perfectly appropriate and in the right style. The director of that dub wanted a very Faulconer sounding score btw.

[kei17]

My opinion is that the Japanese score is not based on traditional Japanese music at all, it's more related to 60s film music than anything else.

By "traditional music," I guess he just meant non-synthesized music. I, however, find some traditional Japanese elements in Kikuchi's music. He often uses pentatonic scale and seems to prefer unison over harmony, which is why his music sounds very comfortable and nostalgic to my ears. Akira Ifukube also is known for his avoidance for chords. He purposely refused to use western harmonies to express his ethnic identity.

The story is that cartoons in the 80s were scored mostly by jazz arrangers who had fallen out of popular favor so that's why 80s cartoon music doesn't sound 80s.

Are you talking about things behind American cartoons? If so, then that has nothing to do with the Japanese anime industry.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I'm done with you. You are clearly incapable of comprehending something very simple.

This is not an appropriate kind of response.

Is there a nicer way to say he is incapable of understanding the concept of the mood a song is tryin to convey?

[Kojiro Sasaki]

My opinion is that the Japanese score is not based on traditional Japanese music at all, it's more related to 60s film music than anything else.

I think that Kikuchi himself wrote here that he was trying to make the music Chinese-sounding:

明るく楽しい音楽を・・・・
ひさしぶりに大変おもしろ原作を読ませてもらいました。あのあけっぴろげのおもしろさが最高です。
何をやっても楽しい、どうころんでもおもしろいこの『ドラゴンボール』言うことなしです。
文句なしに痛快そのもの・・・・・・。
前の 『Dr. スランプアラレちゃん』 では、やや近代的でロボット的なおかしさでしたが、このドラゴンでは、人間的なおかしさを強く感じました。
時代も国籍も不明という設定ですが、すこし中国的な国籍不明音楽を創ってみましたがどうでしょう、それとドラを使って雰囲気づくりをしました。
とにかく絵にあった音楽をとペンを走らせました。できるだけ、明るく楽しく、あっけらかんとした音楽・・・・・・楽しんで下さい。

菊池俊輔 (作曲家)

[cRookie_Monster]

My opinion is that the Japanese score is not based on traditional Japanese music at all, it's more related to 60s film music than anything else.

By "traditional music," I guess he just meant non-synthesized music. I, however, find some traditional Japanese elements in Kikuchi's music. He often uses pentatonic scale and seems to prefer unison over harmony, which is why his music sounds very comfortable and nostalgic to my ears. Akira Ifukube also is known for his avoidance for chords. He purposely refused to use western harmonies to express his ethnic identity.

The story is that cartoons in the 80s were scored mostly by jazz arrangers who had fallen out of popular favor so that's why 80s cartoon music doesn't sound 80s.

Are you talking about things behind American cartoons? If so, then that has nothing to do with the Japanese anime industry.

The pentatonic scale is pretty much a universal thing to all cultures, given people use it in different ways. Western harmony is all over the place in Kikuchi's scores. I've even accused him of overusing the diminished chord which is very alien to just about any culture except western culture. Even the idea of a chord progression or triadic harmony is very western. A lot of times he sounds like a Baroque composer to me. Other times like a 60s horror/scifi film composer.


Oh and yes I was referring to American scores. Kikuchi notably uses very much the same instrumentation setup. Mostly sounds like a big band ensemble, french horns mostly missing. I don't think it's irrelevant given how clearly he's influenced by western music. The point was he's doesn't have a typical "80s" sound.

Sorry Kojiro Sasaki, I wish I could read that. That's interesting to hear though. Was that for all his music, or a particular piece?

Oh Babelfish says:

Bright and fun music, very funny.... after a long time to me I had read the story.
It is best that open interest.
Interesting this Dragon Ball to say doing what is fun, if WINS is no.
Perfectly delightful itself punishment.
Was before the Dr. slump Arale CHAN, somewhat modern and robotic ridiculousness in this Dragon, felt the human ridiculousness. Both age and nationality (English)

Maybe it's not so accurate.

[Kojiro Sasaki]

Sorry Kojiro Sasaki, I wish I could read that. That's interesting to hear though. Was that for all his music, or a particular piece?

I'm also unable to read it I only wrote it from image that was posted in translation thread (by using websites and software which helped me with identifying characters). Things that pop out of the translator do not make any sense, but if you will apply some logic to this, it becomes more understandable

I'm searching for someone who could be able to properly translate it for me. If I will get a good translation, I will post it.

[kei17]

I know the pentatonic scale is a universal thing. I wanted say that traditional Japanese music too uses it and it sounds comfortable to our ears, which might have been one of the reasons why Kikuchi heavily uses it. Speaking of chords, though I'm not familiar with music theory, I can hear how he doesn't always use complex harmonies and likes to strike the same scales with multiple instruments. I've read some critiques accusing him of the unskillfulness with harmony, but my guess is that he simply doesn't care about it much.

[cRookie_Monster]

My best uneducated guess translation of the translation:

Bright and fun music, very funny.... it came to me a long time after I had read the story.
Waiting can open up your mind to new ideas.
Interestingly this Dragon Ball episode is saying do what is fun, but if he wins it's not fun.
Perfectly delightful that he imposes self punishment.
This was before the Dr. slump Arale CHAN, somewhat modern and robotic ridiculousness in this episode, I felt the human ridiculousness. Both age and nationality.

I probably screwed it all up, and I don't understand how winning is not fun or a punishment, but I don't know the storyline he's talking about.
The only Chinese reference I can see might be in that last word? "Both age and nationality"

Of course the whole thing might be nonsense

[kei17]

Oh and yes I was referring to American scores. Kikuchi notably uses very much the same instrumentation setup. Mostly sounds like a big band ensemble, french horns mostly missing. I don't think it's irrelevant given how clearly he's influenced by western music. The point was he's doesn't have a typical "80s" sound.

Yeah, it doesn't have a "typical" '80s sound, but in Japan, his style still was hot and it's not because the anime industry was filled with outmoded musicians. They were specialized score composers. Kikuchi's style can be counted as a part of '80s music in Japan since it was still not dated at the time.

Maybe his music was a standalone genre named "Kikuchi music." It was such big.

[cRookie_Monster]

I know the pentatonic scale is a universal thing. I wanted say that traditional Japanese music too uses it and it sounds comfortable to our ears, which might have been one of the reasons why Kikuchi heavily uses it. Speaking of chords, though I'm not familiar with music theory, I can hear how he doesn't always use complex harmonies and likes to strike the same scales with multiple instruments. I've read some critiques accusing him of the unskillfulness with harmony, but my guess is that he simply doesn't care about it much.

Maybe so. He definitely grew up in a different scene than the other TV arrangers of the 80s. Those guys grew up in a time steeped in jazz and complex harmonies, like we've never seen before or since. They were right in the heart of it, where it developed. They were very sophisticated musicians and my criticism of them is they had trouble dumbing it down for TV. Guitar seemed like an after thought to edge up the sound. I think they secretly would have rather been writing like Count Basie. Kikuchi I think was influenced, but from afar. I don't think he had the same kind of chops they did and maybe he didn't want it. It definitely gives him a different flavor from the other guys. I wonder though why he didn't use traditional Japanese instruments and went with mostly TBones, trumpets, strings, trap kit, and electric guitar instead? Now Vince Di Cola, was a younger guy and was a true 80s man. His transformers score doesn't even hint at jazz and is...awesome They hired him to do the TF movie since he had just done Rocky and was a hit.

Pentatonic is very much a comfortable scale. It's the basis of Kodaly's music teaching philosophy for children. It's the basis of the blues scale(minus the blue note), it's Chinese, it's American folk tunes, it's rock songs, it's Japanese, on and on.

Yeah, it doesn't have a "typical" '80s sound, but in Japan, his style still was hot and it's not because the anime industry was filled with outmoded musicians. They were specialized score composers. Kikuchi's style can be counted as a part of '80s music in Japan since it was still not dated at the time.

Maybe his music was a standalone genre named "Kikuchi music." It was such big.

Or they were just 20 years behind the US...not really. Even the TV scoring people in the US were 20 years behind imho. Kikuchi was just a simplified version in my view.

[Gonstead]

I'm not interested in the fine workings of producing music and have no intention of ever learning it but I do have to say I really do enjoy reading your detailed responses, cRookie_Monster. ^_^

[Fionordequester]

Is there a nicer way to say he is incapable of understanding the concept of the mood a song is tryin to convey?

Yes, there is. "You can think what you want, but I think this song carries <this or that> special kind of mood. If you don't think it does, that's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. But I don't think you can say it's bad".

[Thanos]

Either way, it doesn't really matter, as I said. At the end of the day, if we argue the quality of it, that will get us no where. This thread has literally come to the point of "IT SUX" vs. "NO IT DOESNT BECAUSE I DISAGREE". I know everyone wants their opinions heard, but let's be honest with ourselves... no one here really cares about what anyone else thinks about Kikuchi or Faulconer's scores, we just want our opinions to be heard. This is the reason why I said the replacement score's legitimacy is what the issue ought to be, rather than its quality. As I said, I do enjoy some choice tracks from Faulconer Productions (as their own independent entities), but that bears no relevancy to the matter at hand. No one gives a toss what I think, nor should you.

The thread title is a bit misleading; the only defense for the Faulconer score seems to be an emotional one, which is, I'm guessing, why arguments based on the logistics of its existence are shot down, because really, there are no arguments for it. It always seems to come back to nostalgic and emotional arguments. If you prefer the dub, that's fair enough, and good luck to you. But my issue is when disrespect comes into play with regard to the source material... as though FUNimation has, like a knight in shining armor, hijacked the legitimacy from the Japanese version because 'Murica.

[TheMightyOzaru]

But what he's claiming isn't an opinion if he's wrong. The english SSJ3 scene, for example, creates a mood of excitement whereas the Japanese scene creates an unsettling mood. The english scene is basically conveying "Hell yeah, Goku's got a new transformation!", whereas the Japanese scene is basically conveying "Oh shit... Goku shouldn't be doing this..." Claiming the 2 scores have the same mood is like saying the sky is pink. It just isn't the case.

[Victorious]

Kikuchi's score is far too repetitive in Kai, you can tell the editors had very little time to set up the replacement for Yamamotto's score. Kikuchi's score was great for DB and DBZ though.

My favorite is Yamamato's score for Kai. It gets real intense on some moments.

Faulconer's Z admittitely had it's moments in some areas but it's too weird and spacy for me.

[Kojiro Sasaki]

Kikuchi's score is far too repetitive in Kai, you can tell the editors had very little time to set up the replacement for Yamamotto's score. Kikuchi's score was great for DB and DBZ though.

Less than 1/8 of music pieces were used in Kai (less than 1/4, if we will count only the music composed for DBZ).