Question about "hardcore" anime fans opinion on DBZ dub

[TheBlackPaladin]

People could theoretically respond to what I'm about to say by using the "oranges and apples" argument, and if they want to do that, I won't try and defend myself. Having said that, if we're throwing out the phrase, "it's a different show"...then I used to agree, but now, I must respectfully disagree.

Back when there was first talk of licensing "Sailor Moon" over here in the English-speaking world, there were a couple companies interested in it. DiC ultimately got it, but before that, one of the proposals made was by a company called Toon Makers, who wanted to license the property...and then do something completely different with it. Rather than dub the anime, they planned on making their own show, using a combination of live-action footage and North American animation. Thankfully, this never came to pass, but a proposal video was shown at an animation conference (at an art university, I believe), and.......well, to put it generously, it looks like the connections between the original anime and what Toon Makers wanted to do was tenuous. At best.

Put another way...if we're going to toss around the term "different show," then what FUNimation made is not a different show. *That* was a different show.

After remembering this example, I have a hard time using the argument that the dubbed version and the subbed version of DBZ are like two different shows. More like the same show but with two very different general vibes/feels to them. FUNimation didn't pull a Toon Makers. I'm not defending the dub, just giving my observation on the "two different shows" comment that I've seen thrown around.

[B]

I know Funi pulled a huge faux pas with Vegeta's death and how they tied to make him someone who was "corrupted" by Freeza, which hurts his character a bit...but then how do you justify Toei's filler scenes after he's brought back to life that blatantly contradict his character motivations, or them completely nullifying Vegeta's character development when Trunks dies? If you watch those scenes without ever having read the manga, are you "not a true Dragon Ball fan" then, too?

You don't; they're both wrong. This probably won't mean much, but I have to say it: a dub of animation is nowhere near the same ballpark as an animated adaptation of a drawing.

Labeling who is a "true fan" or not is just messy bait, but I would say someone who holds higher regard with the anime than the manga is certainly missing a lot.

[90sDBZ]

I generally think of the dub and the original as 2 sides of the same coin. A strange coin that has one bronze side and one copper side but still the same coin nonetheless.

[Ringworm128]

I have the "Byakuren wish" when it comes to sub and dub fans. I would love it if the average Z convo went like this, Guy 1: "I like the Team Faulconer score" Guy 2: "I'm more of a Kikuchi guy but what's your favorite track?" Guy 1: "Perfect Cell's theme." Not Guy1: "F..k the Japanese score is shit almost as bad as Goku's voice" Guy 2: What the f..k are you talking about? The Faulconer score is a disgrace along with the rest of the dub, you're not a real fan." Guy 1: " No it isn't, it's better than the original and Goku doesn't sound like a pussy." etc

[Gyt Kaliba]

That's pretty much my wish too ringworm. It really sucks that bullheaded people on both sides of the debate often lead us to in-fighting, when really the fandom doesn't have to be near as fractured as it is. We need less people trying to make others feel bad for liking something that they themselves don't like, and more accepting that different people are going to have different (but still entirely valid) opinions and preferences of their own.

[samuraix123]

That's pretty much my wish too ringworm. It really sucks that bullheaded people on both sides of the debate often lead us to in-fighting, when really the fandom doesn't have to be near as fractured as it is. We need less people trying to make others feel bad for liking something that they themselves don't like, and more accepting that different people are going to have different (but still entirely valid) opinions and preferences of their own.

I still can't understand why people ''Care'' what other people like? lol does it bother some people that bad? haha

[TheBlackPaladin]

That's pretty much my wish too ringworm. It really sucks that bullheaded people on both sides of the debate often lead us to in-fighting, when really the fandom doesn't have to be near as fractured as it is. We need less people trying to make others feel bad for liking something that they themselves don't like, and more accepting that different people are going to have different (but still entirely valid) opinions and preferences of their own.

I still can't understand why people ''Care'' what other people like? lol does it bother some people that bad? haha

AGREED. I've never been able to understand that...it really does appear sometimes that (some) fans do take issue with the fact that there are people out there who like something that they despise. It's like....what's the point? You like it, isn't that enough?

[VegettoEX]

I think it's fairly easy to understand why. At the most basic level it's, "I really really oh my god incredibly enjoy this thing. You're enjoying it in a way that doesn't match up with mine, and I think you'd have an even better time if you checked it out my way, and then we could be the best of friends."

It's religious zealotry at its finest. Seems simple to me.

[Gyt Kaliba]

...Oddly enough, that seems like a pretty good assessment of it in most cases (again, coming from both sides of the debate too), VegettoEX. Being jumped by a fan who takes it all a little too seriously like that does feel kinda like getting woken up out of bed early in the morning by a door-to-door religion salesman.

[KentalSSJ6]

...Oddly enough, that seems like a pretty good assessment of it in most cases (again, coming from both sides of the debate too), VegettoEX. Being jumped by a fan who takes it all a little too seriously like that does feel kinda like getting woken up out of bed early in the morning by a door-to-door religion salesman.

And that my friend, is why we have garden hoses.

[TheWhiz]

I know it was made for kids. I said that earlier. I just meant that Funi didn't make it anymore of a kids show than it already was.

I feel it made it more of a kids show. The butt rock music, the added dialogue where there would be silence, this was clearly made with the thoughts that kids were super dumb and couldn't pay attention.

Well I feel that they made it less of a kids show in other ways. Like how the Japanese version would sometimes have annoying super happy sounding music that was obviously to please kids. It got really annoying at times like in movie 2 when Gohan had that dream of Piccolo or the music when Gohan played with Icarus in movie 3 and they played cheerful music throughout as if to say "ZOMG this kid and his dragon are so cute!!!" which was clearly intended to to appeal to kids. They would even have inappropriately happy music playing over episode titles that included stuff like "Namek's Destruction" or stuff like that.

The dub on the other hand had darker music a lot of the time. Especially the Levy and Jonson scores which sounded appropriately dark and chilling considering those scores played in the Saiyan saga when everyone was getting killed off. When you see an episode title like "A Black day for Planet earth" you don't want a happy instrumental version of Head Cha La playing but a dark and chilling track to set the mood for what's about to go down. The Faulconer score also made villains like Imperfect Cell and Super Buu even more scary. I remember being creeped out by Super Buu and his creepy theme tune in the dub when I saw it as a kid. It actually resembled something out of a horror film rather than a kids show.

Also the dub had more subtlety with the episode titles. The Japanese titles pretty much spelt out the whole episode for kids to understand as if they couldn't work it out for themselves.

Are you implying Faulconer's score is more adult?

[Daimo-Rukiri]

Now granted I started watching DBZ during the broadcast but at that time I didn't know what anime was I was friggen 4 years old and thought it was the most coolest thing on TV at the time.

The fact is when you're young you just know it's cool and you like it, you probably didn't know it was anime until later on.

[Zenkai]

If the version you're watching is not the damn show, then you aren't a fan, anymore than eating marshmallow Peeps makes you an eater of chicken.

Dude, it's the same show.

[NintendoBlaze53]

If you are a fan of Dragon Ball Evolution are you a Dragon Ball Fan no you are a Dragon Ball Evolution fan, why because Evolution is an adaption of Dragon Ball. The Funi Dub is an adaption of the Japanese DB which is an adaption of the manga unless you like all of them then you can say your a DB fan, but if you don't like the Japanese anime but love the English dub you are a Dub fan not a Dragon Ball Fan or a "True Fan" there is no such thing as a true fan unless you are a fan of EVERYTHING Dragon Ball. The dub is not Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball is a franchise not one show or one version of one show every thing is the Dragon Ball franchise but nothing is Dragon Ball itself. If you like the Original Star Wars trilogy but not the Prequels you are a fan of the original trilogy not the Star Wars franchise.
Just my two cents.

[Logan]

I don't think that there is a simple black and white way of distinguishing what is or isn't Dragon Ball or whatever fandom that might be contested. I think it should really be looked at on a case-by-case basis.

In my opinion, Dragon Ball in the US is Dragon Ball. It's adapting the material from Japan for the audience in the US. Things are altered and edited, yes, but it's intended to be the same entity. I would not say the same for Robotech and Macross. They both share much of the same base materials but go off into different directions. Even Carl Macek was quoted as saying that they should be seen as two different bodies of work.

And there's my two zenis worth.

[Quebaz]

I know it was made for kids. I said that earlier. I just meant that Funi didn't make it anymore of a kids show than it already was.

I feel it made it more of a kids show. The butt rock music, the added dialogue where there would be silence, this was clearly made with the thoughts that kids were super dumb and couldn't pay attention.

Well I feel that they made it less of a kids show in other ways. Like how the Japanese version would sometimes have annoying super happy sounding music that was obviously to please kids. It got really annoying at times like in movie 2 when Gohan had that dream of Piccolo or the music when Gohan played with Icarus in movie 3 and they played cheerful music throughout as if to say "ZOMG this kid and his dragon are so cute!!!" which was clearly intended to to appeal to kids. They would even have inappropriately happy music playing over episode titles that included stuff like "Namek's Destruction" or stuff like that.

The dub on the other hand had darker music a lot of the time. Especially the Levy and Jonson scores which sounded appropriately dark and chilling considering those scores played in the Saiyan saga when everyone was getting killed off. When you see an episode title like "A Black day for Planet earth" you don't want a happy instrumental version of Head Cha La playing but a dark and chilling track to set the mood for what's about to go down. The Faulconer score also made villains like Imperfect Cell and Super Buu even more scary. I remember being creeped out by Super Buu and his creepy theme tune in the dub when I saw it as a kid. It actually resembled something out of a horror film rather than a kids show.

Also the dub had more subtlety with the episode titles. The Japanese titles pretty much spelt out the whole episode for kids to understand as if they couldn't work it out for themselves.

What are you talking about?

Still don't get why some of you find Kikuchi's score childish or non-fitting.

[90sDBZ]

What are you talking about?

Still don't get why some of you find Kikuchi's score childish or non-fitting.

Because of this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pafO9dKkej0

And this at 1:11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEzUQfyVoQM

[TheGmGoken]

What are you talking about?

Still don't get why some of you find Kikuchi's score childish or non-fitting.

Because of this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pafO9dKkej0

And this at 1:11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEzUQfyVoQM

Both are horrible examples. Both fits greatly.

[90sDBZ]

What are you talking about?

Still don't get why some of you find Kikuchi's score childish or non-fitting.

Because of this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pafO9dKkej0

And this at 1:11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEzUQfyVoQM

Both are horrible examples. Both fits greatly.

Both are cheesey. I'm fine with something being cheesey but not to the point of it being cringeworthy.

[TheOverlyMadHatter]

Might be a question of perspective, but to me, there are fans of the series and fans of the dub. Much like AjayLikesGaming, I can't consider anyone a fan of the actual series if they don't at least respect the source material.

And this at 1:11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEzUQfyVoQM

The rest of the video is pretty much the polar opposite of the specific piece you're pointing at. Especially 0:00, 5:43, and 13:55, which were used extensively throughout the series as opposed to the track you mentioned that never saw light outside the movie. And your questioning the use of the Japanese Subtitle I/II bridge for dark-sounding titles is essentially the same thing as questioning the use of the US Broadcast Title Card music for titles like "He's Always Late" or "Celebrations with Majin Buu". Which do you feel waters the series down more? Spelling things out in the title, or adding dialogue into the actual series to either make a joke about burnt toast or point out something obvious? Not to mention I rarely see any liveliness or excitement in any of the dub episode titles. Yes, the original titles are over-the-top, camp, and sometimes contain spoilers, but that's already more or less the gist of Dragon Ball; it doesn't take itself too seriously.