Why Was Gohan Handled So Poorly In The Cell Arc?

[rereboy]

That wouldn't be cold blooded to let Freeza die, it would be the sane thing to do. Freeza's still a danger regardless of how strong Goku is, and he didn't have one reason for letting Freeza live. He planned to let Freeza die on Namek until Freeza asked for help. Goku did it primarily as an act of mercy. That's not selfish, that's self destructive, but you are right that it's consistent with his personality. He's been known to let evil people go, or try to let them go.

We have been through this. I KNOW that you disagree with the definition of "killing in cold blood" in that case, but by it I just mean "killing outside of the heat of battle" (you know, when the battle is already settled and all).

[ABED]

That wouldn't be cold blooded to let Freeza die, it would be the sane thing to do. Freeza's still a danger regardless of how strong Goku is, and he didn't have one reason for letting Freeza live. He planned to let Freeza die on Namek until Freeza asked for help. Goku did it primarily as an act of mercy. That's not selfish, that's self destructive, but you are right that it's consistent with his personality. He's been known to let evil people go, or try to let them go.

We have been through this. I KNOW that you disagree with the definition of "killing in cold blood" in that case, but by it I just mean "killing outside of the heat of battle" (you know, when the battle is already settled and all).

I don't disagree with the definition, I disagree with your definition. Cold blooded means executed without feeling or emotion and given how Goku tried numerous times to let Freeza go and how much Freeza's pleas bothered him, we know Goku didn't feel nothing. In fact, I would say he shouldn't have acted on his emotions. Even though it wasn't the heat of battle, letting Freeza die by his own hand would be an act of justice. However, this isn't about Goku, it's about his son. If there's enough interest in this conversation, feel free to create another thread.

Gohan often lacks confidence in himself, so playing on that instead of "This fight is pointless, I don't want to fight" would've made more sense.

[Kid Buu]

Meh, out-of-character or not I still found Gohan lame here. Dude trains for 4 years and gets cold feet, and then spends the SSJ2 portion of the fight as a Super Vegeta wannabe.

Gohan's peak to me was on Namek, I love the scene where he hid the Dragon Ball from Vegeta and stood up to him.

[ABED]

Meh, out-of-character or not I still found Gohan lame here. Dude trains for 4 years and gets cold feet, and then spends the SSJ2 portion of the fight as a Super Vegeta wannabe.

Gohan's peak to me was on Namek, I love the scene where he hid the Dragon Ball from Vegeta and stood up to him.

True, I love characters that are willing to go down swinging which is the biggest reason I don't care for Gohan taking on the role of the hero of the story.

[GsTvo]

Meh, out-of-character or not I still found Gohan lame here. Dude trains for 4 years and gets cold feet, and then spends the SSJ2 portion of the fight as a Super Vegeta wannabe.

Maybe it's because they're both Saiyajins. Arrogants when they are stronger than the opponent...

[rereboy]

I don't disagree with the definition, I disagree with your definition. Cold blooded means executed without feeling or emotion and given how Goku tried numerous times to let Freeza go and how much Freeza's pleas bothered him, we know Goku didn't feel nothing. In fact, I would say he shouldn't have acted on his emotions. Even though it wasn't the heat of battle, letting Freeza die by his own hand would be an act of justice. However, this isn't about Goku, it's about his son. If there's enough interest in this conversation, feel free to create another thread.

Gohan often lacks confidence in himself, so playing on that instead of "This fight is pointless, I don't want to fight" would've made more sense.

And I wasn't trying to argue with you about the literal accuracy of the expression. I used it because it's the closest common expression I can think of for what Goku dislikes without going into a more elaborate and longer explanation, not to mention that no one is ever obligated to stick to the most strict literal uses of expressions in their vocabulary. Language isn't that poor.

If I was trying to argue with you, I would say that the expression comes as the opposite of "in hot blood" or "hot-blooded" which basically can refer to a passionable person, someone who acts overwhelmed by his emotions, feelings, reflexes and the like. "In cold blood", as the opposite, might refer to rational actions, and decisions not overwhelmed by the person's passions. Killing in cold blood could then refer to killing deliberately by a decision that is not overwhelmed by the person's emotions. Deciding to kill someone because it might be for the best could then fit the criteria. In those situations, Goku obviously wasn't overwhelmed by his emotions so much that he felt the need to kill them out of revenge or any such feeling... He was perfectly rational and if he did kill them would be because he would think it would be for the best.

[ABED]

I don't disagree with the definition, I disagree with your definition. Cold blooded means executed without feeling or emotion and given how Goku tried numerous times to let Freeza go and how much Freeza's pleas bothered him, we know Goku didn't feel nothing. In fact, I would say he shouldn't have acted on his emotions. Even though it wasn't the heat of battle, letting Freeza die by his own hand would be an act of justice. However, this isn't about Goku, it's about his son. If there's enough interest in this conversation, feel free to create another thread.

Gohan often lacks confidence in himself, so playing on that instead of "This fight is pointless, I don't want to fight" would've made more sense.

And I wasn't trying to argue with you about the literal accuracy of the expression. I used it because it's the closest common expression I can think of for what Goku dislikes without going into a more elaborate and longer explanation, not to mention that no one is ever obligated to stick to the most strict literal uses of expressions in their vocabulary. Language isn't that poor.

If I was trying to argue with you, I would say that the expression comes as the opposite of "in hot blood" or "hot-blooded" which basically can refer to a passionable person, someone who acts overwhelmed by his emotions, feelings, reflexes and the like. "In cold blood", as the opposite, might refer to rational actions, and decisions not overwhelmed by the person's passions. Killing in cold blood could then refer to killing deliberately by a decision that is not overwhelmed by the person's emotions. Deciding to kill someone because it might be for the best could then fit the criteria. In those situations, Goku obviously wasn't overwhelmed by his emotions so much that he felt the need to kill them out of revenge or any such feeling... He was perfectly rational and if he did kill them would be because he would think it would be for the best.

Gotcha, but I've never heard the expression "language isn't that poor" before. (I'm splitting hairs, but there are contexts where you are obligated to stick to exact definitions, such as academic papers) I think I get what you're saying. Goku wasn't driven by pure emotion. However the opposite isn't "coldblooded". I get that in a context like this that not every choice of word is going to be the precise definition, but "cold blooded" has a decidedly negative connotation, which isn't at all what I would consider that moment to be if Goku had let Freeza die.

[rereboy]

By language isn't that poor I mean that its rich in its different uses. There's tons of expressions and tons of ways of using certain words beyond their literal meaning. Its everything but static and even the great writers often challenge the commons boundaries of the expressions and uses of language. In short, its constantly being molded by the ones who use it.

[Cold Skin]

Meh, out-of-character or not I still found Gohan lame here. Dude trains for 4 years and gets cold feet, and then spends the SSJ2 portion of the fight as a Super Vegeta wannabe.

Maybe it's because they're both Saiyajins. Arrogants when they are stronger than the opponent...

Yeah, it's actually a strong tendancy with Saiyans to become, cocky more agressive or even sometimes sadistic when they reach a new level of transformation, even if it's not in their usual temper.

Goku first using Kaioken against Vegeta smiles with a "you had it coming, sorry that I will dominate you in a few seconds!" look and is shocked when it doesn't work.
Goku as a Super Saiyan was scary to Gohan and probably the viewers at the time. He will ask Freezer to beam him in the face just to show him how better he is, or say "so what? You'll be dead in less than 5 minutes anyway".
Vegeta reaching Super Saiyan is cocky as hell, and reaching grade 2, he calls himself Super Vegeta.
Trunks reaching grade 3 thinks he's already won against Cell, saying he wouldn't even need a Senzu anyway.
Gohan as a Super Saiyan 2 plays around with Cell and doesn't think there's any danger left.
Gotenks is already cocky by nature, so reaching Super Saiyan 3 doesn't make it better.
Gohan having his ultimate state will mock Boo instead of vaporizing him with a Kame Hame Ha right away.

So yeah, Gohan is not unique in that regard, pretty much all Saiyans lose it and become "monster-ish" when reaching an unprecedented transformation that is exclusive or almost exclusive to them for the time being.
There are a few times when he doesn't happen though, such as when Goku reaches Grade 3 and immediately discards it as a bad state.

[GsTvo]

Exactly, so why people discuss about his behaviour? I have said it a couple of times, it's a 11 years old Saiyajin KID, with the burden of saving the Earth... His perfomance in the battle was the same of Goku vs Freeza, before SSJ: easy for Freeza, after SSJ: Goku starts to play with Freeza just to see how strong was with his 100% power, even after all the murders that Freeza did, like the amazing death of Krillin.

They're people who hate all the things about the character, so "forget" basic things of the story and expects that all behave like Goku and Vegeta...

[rereboy]

What the hell are you talking about? No one is criticizing how Gohan acted as a SSJ2. What was being criticized was Gohan's attitude before he turns SSJ2. And, I'm sorry, but there's nothing Saiyan-like in his attitude before turning SSJ2 on the Cell games.

[RandomGuy96]

Exactly, so why people discuss about his behaviour? I have said it a couple of times, it's a 11 years old Saiyajin KID, with the burden of saving the Earth... His perfomance in the battle was the same of Goku vs Freeza, before SSJ: easy for Freeza, after SSJ: Goku starts to play with Freeza just to see how strong was with his 100% power, even after all the murders that Freeza did, like the amazing death of Krillin.

They're people who hate all the things about the character, so "forget" basic things of the story and expects that all behave like Goku and Vegeta...

I didn't expect him to behave like Goku or Vegeta. I expected him to behave like Gohan. The same Gohan that didn't puss out against Recoome, and volunteered to help fight the bad guys in the android arc.

[GsTvo]

What the hell are you talking about? No one is criticizing how Gohan acted as a SSJ2.

Meh, out-of-character or not I still found Gohan lame here. Dude trains for 4 years and gets cold feet, and then spends the SSJ2 portion of the fight as a Super Vegeta wannabe.

//

What was being criticized was Gohan's attitude before he turns SSJ2. And, I'm sorry, but there's nothing Saiyan-like in his attitude before turning SSJ2 on the Cell games.

You're absolutly right, before he turns SSJ2 there's nothing Saiyan-like in his attitude, that's why I'm saying that some of you guys, are trying to show his hate with the character just because his attitude is different than the other Saiyajins.

I remember that you say it:

Its not that Gohan doesn't like fighting, he's pretty much refusing to fight seriously. Cell has to beat up every single one of his friends and family almost till they died (plus kill an android) so that Gohan actually is willing to fight seriously.

Gohan's personality it's more "human", because he is half-human... When he stands in front of Cell, he was wondering: ¿Why my dad (the famous Goku) give up?, ¿Why he choose me instead Vegeta or Trunks?, ¿He's resting a little before confronted again with Cell?.

It's not like "Oh!! Ok, now it's my turn to fight, I'm super excited yeah!!! I'm going to show you all my power bitch!!!" because it's not like he is.

RandomGuy96: With Recoome, Gohan doesn't know when Goku is going to arrive, and Vegeta and Krillin has been defeated, it's a different case because he was the ONLY left.

I'm not a Gohan fan, but I still don't see the "Handled so Poorly" part.

[ABED]

RandomGuy96: With Recoome, Gohan doesn't know when Goku is going to arrive, and Vegeta and Krillin has been defeated, it's a different case because he was the ONLY left.

They may not be physically incapacitated, but Gohan was the only one who could destroy Cell.

[rereboy]

You're absolutly right, before he turns SSJ2 there's nothing Saiyan-like in his attitude, that's why I'm saying that some of you guys, are trying to show his hate with the character just because his attitude is different than the other Saiyajins.

Ok, one poster talked about him in SSJ2. I didn't notice that. But the main previous discussion was not about him as a SSJ2 at all, but before then. That's what people usually criticize.

I remember that you say it:

What I said was that Gohan's attitude was incoherent to how he has always acted and that the change comes out of nowhere. So, it looks, very noticeably, that his attitude was twisted/changed in order to create more drama and tension than a coherent attitude with his past would have allowed.

I never talked about his attitude being more human or more saiyan-like.

[Duo]

What the hell are you talking about? No one is criticizing how Gohan acted as a SSJ2. What was being criticized was Gohan's attitude before he turns SSJ2. And, I'm sorry, but there's nothing Saiyan-like in his attitude before turning SSJ2 on the Cell games.

This.

Ssj2 Gohan is possibly another bag of worms. Rage Gohan in the past always tried to just murder the crap out of whatever made him tick. The writing was spot on when he destroyed the Cell Juniors utterly (in the manga it's very VERY quick), but having him switch up attitudes and be all cocky and condescending with Cell? It suits the way Goku and Vegeta (somewhat) acted when attaining new transformed states, but it doesn't fit Gohan very well for me. He's never dragged out a fight before. Some context was really needed both for this as well as his pre-transformation avoidance toward fighting. Ssj Gohan had to have known he was the strongest protagonist there, even without turning Ssj2. There's no reason for him to back down.

Also, it's always bothered me that Goku didn't bother teaching Gohan Instant Movement during their training. Goku is written a bit weird in this arc as well.

[Kid Buu]

Yeah, it's actually a strong tendancy with Saiyans to become, cocky more agressive or even sometimes sadistic when they reach a new level of transformation, even if it's not in their usual temper.

Goku first using Kaioken against Vegeta smiles with a "you had it coming, sorry that I will dominate you in a few seconds!" look and is shocked when it doesn't work.
Goku as a Super Saiyan was scary to Gohan and probably the viewers at the time. He will ask Freezer to beam him in the face just to show him how better he is, or say "so what? You'll be dead in less than 5 minutes anyway".
Vegeta reaching Super Saiyan is cocky as hell, and reaching grade 2, he calls himself Super Vegeta.
Trunks reaching grade 3 thinks he's already won against Cell, saying he wouldn't even need a Senzu anyway.
Gohan as a Super Saiyan 2 plays around with Cell and doesn't think there's any danger left.
Gotenks is already cocky by nature, so reaching Super Saiyan 3 doesn't make it better.
Gohan having his ultimate state will mock Boo instead of vaporizing him with a Kame Hame Ha right away..

But none of those battles played out exactly like the Super Vegeta fight (except maybe Buu arc stuff, but I have a problem with that too). In both Vegeta and Gohan's battle, they continue to arrogantly pound onto the foe until the foe has a mental breakdown and then the foe outsmarts them and gains the uppperhand. None of Goku and Trunks battles were like this.

[mAcChaos]

That's because Gohan is inexperienced and Vegeta is an idiot.

[ChiChiFan]

Honestly, Gohan was never a fighter at heart. No matter how much you try to argue or debate, Gohan only fights whenever someone is hurt. You have to piss Gohan off in order for him to fight.

[Nikkolas]

What was wrong with Gohan in the Cell Games?

Nothing.