Dragon Ball and the Bechdel test.

[FrogTrigger]

...

No one is saying he doesn't decide that dude

Just seemed like as the series went on, piccolo and the earth gang got shafted

I never said you said that. But the implication is that these characters just happened to fall out of focus because they happened to not be useful. They could have been useful. But they weren't. Toriyama chose to write them that way. He could have chosen to do interesting things with them or continue to do interesting things with them. He did not.

And it seems like outside of bulma or the deity set, they got the case of can't catch up and hit their peak.

[garnetjester]

I just remembered that 18 told Maron to be a good girl before the tenkaichi budoukai in which she fights. I guess that counts? But I can't remember if it was just anime only

[Gaffer Tape]

RE: Kid Buu

And how did Sailor Moon fare? I'm no expert on Sailor Moon, but I have to imagine it probably didn't do so well on that scale.

RE: FrogTrigger

Yes, I know how the story unfolded. Again, that's not the point. The story did not HAVE to unfold that way. If Toriyama had wanted Chaozu to be the strongest character in the entire series, he could have done that. If he had wanted Videl to actually be involved in the battle with Boo rather than fading into the background, he could have done that. But he did not. So whether it's a male or female character, you can't just use the excuse that, "Oh, well, there's nothing that could have been done about that." Of course there is. If Goku can randomly become an alien one day, anything can happen. It's Dragon Ball! Pulling random stuff out of its ass is what it does!

[garnetjester]

Sailor moon actually would pass that test. Lots of male villains plus tuxedo mask and the sailor starlights who were sorta male? And there was the arcade guy too. And they all talked about different stuff than just the girls

[Kid Buu]

Sailor Moon passed with the interactions of the male villains in the R arc. I'm pretty sure Mamoru (the Yamcha of the series) interacts with Motoki, but I couldn't recall of the top of my head.

For anyone that cares, Naruto passed during the Kid Ino/Sakura bully confrontation too.

[Gaffer Tape]

Would it? I know there are a lot of male characters, but I didn't think they usually got to interact with each other. They usually showed up one at a time, and they were often love interests to Usagi or the other female characters. I seem to recall that any time Mamoru and arcade guy (whose name escapes me) came into contact, all they did was talk about Usagi.

[Kid Buu]

Well keep in mind I went off manga. The manga is way less character-focused than the anime was.

[Rocketman]

*stuff*

Seriously? Am I somehow not being clear? I'm not refuting that this quote exists. I've read it. I know about it. There's no issue with me on that. Yes. Someone said this. But it has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about. I'm arguing against this weird idea you have that it's in any way an effect of admitting that women have advantages in this society! My only issue is with the logic you used to come to that conclusion because it honestly does not make any logical sense to me.

Ahhh, ok then. My bad, I thought you were either unaware of or denying that that happened.

So, to explain.

If you say that these "advantages" are advantages, then you create a false balance in the general aether, a sense of "ok, so men have advantages, but so do women, so things are balanced right now; I mean, I certainly don't see any major problems so they can't be that serious".

Then when feminists push for actual advances, like reproductive rights, that gets filtered as "women are trying to get MORE advantages than men get! Feminists are the real oppressors!"

Which swirls into combination with other anti-women notions, like women stealing yo kids and money in divorces, or false rape claims being common. Which boils together with pseudo-science and biotruths into "women can't get pregnant from REAL rape, so they're lying about it being rape so they can squeeze even more advantages out of us!" I.E. "legitimate rape".

[FrogTrigger]

RE: Kid Buu

And how did Sailor Moon fare? I'm no expert on Sailor Moon, but I have to imagine it probably didn't do so well on that scale.

RE: FrogTrigger

Yes, I know how the story unfolded. Again, that's not the point. The story did not HAVE to unfold that way. If Toriyama had wanted Chaozu to be the strongest character in the entire series, he could have done that. If he had wanted Videl to actually be involved in the battle with Boo rather than fading into the background, he could have done that. But he did not. So whether it's a male or female character, you can't just use the excuse that, "Oh, well, there's nothing that could have been done about that." Of course there is. If Goku can randomly become an alien one day, anything can happen. It's Dragon Ball! Pulling random stuff out of its ass is what it does!

I think I'm miscommunication here so my bad, preemptively. Yea he could've done a lot of things-and did-with most of them befitting of the genre, though I think Chaozu would have ended dB as the lead

[Zephyr]

If you say that these "advantages" are advantages, then you create a false balance in the general aether, a sense of "ok, so men have advantages, but so do women, so things are balanced right now; I mean, I certainly don't see any major problems so they can't be that serious".

You weren't responding to me, but it pertains to my post as well, so here goes:

I wasn't saying that women having advantages made things balanced. It most certainly doesn't. But that doesn't mean there aren't those areas in which they have advantage. I'm not saying it equalizes with the advantages men have. I'm not saying the few advantages they do have outweigh the ones men have. If I somehow implied that, I didn't intend to.

But those advantages they have, are still advantages, which is the sole point I was making.

Then when feminists push for actual advances, like reproductive rights, that gets filtered as "women are trying to get MORE advantages than men get! Feminists are the real oppressors!"

Which swirls into combination with other anti-women notions, like women stealing yo kids and money in divorces, or false rape claims being common. Which boils together with pseudo-science and biotruths into "women can't get pregnant from REAL rape, so they're lying about it being rape so they can squeeze even more advantages out of us!" I.E. "legitimate rape".

And I don't think a single person in this thread has been arguing any of that, at least not explicitly. You'll definitely see that in places like 4chan. But that's besides the point. The fact that there are people who are deluded into thinking women dominate the world doesn't nullify the fact that women are not without their own certain advantages in society.

[Kid Buu]

Gaffer Tape

In the chapter "Sailor Venus - Invasion" of the R arc, two male villains discuss the planet Nemesis, which gave birth to the Black Crystal.

[Kingdom Heartless]

Yikes, this thing got out of control.

I have a feeling this isn't long for this world.

As far as Pan as a character. I don't always find her particularly likeable, but I wouldn't call her a negative female character. Her very introduction at the end of the manga was a positive step, with this little girl showing the type of energy that Goku showed as a child.

[FrogTrigger]

I kinda would've liked her grown up with that energy

[Smochi]

I think that the Bechdel test is very interesting, but like many of the analogies here, is not an end-all be-all way to condemn an entire work or demographic. In the case of DBZ, it is a VERY male-dominated show, and the earth is constantly under attack by a male, and being saved by a group of males. Even if DBZ didn't pass the test, would it be that odd for females to be talking about males whenever they're shown? I don't think so. It seems like this evolved into a thread that explores feminism and whether it has a place though, and I'm not really sure I have an opinion about that. I think that while some individuals have strengths or benefits over others, it can never be said for everyone of that demographic. But in the case of DBZ and the Bechdel test, I think it passes but I admittedly don't have a specific video to show or lines to give. Even if it did not though, due to the content, I don't think it would be a particularly sexist implication.

[Kid Buu]

I was going to say passing and not passing the test doesn't reflect quality, but its merely an interesting observation of the work.

Its like the Mary Sue trope, having a Mary Sue isn't always a bad thing. In Citizen Kane the title character was initially meant to be based on William Randolph Hearst but became a stand-in for Orson Welles, and that is considered the best film of all time by many!

[Smochi]

I was going to say passing and not passing the test doesn't reflect quality, but its merely an interesting observation of the work.

Its like the Mary Sue trope, having a Mary Sue isn't always a bad thing. In Citizen Kane the title character was initially meant to be based on William Randolph Hearst but became a stand-in for Orson Welles, and that is considered the best film of all time by many!

I have definitely met people who are too nice, cute, and charming for anyone to justifiably hate me (even if it gets annoying that they never take the lower road like I do XD), but there just aren't many of them. There is an infinite amount of kinds of people, motives and situations in the world. You can have any of them in a work of fiction, but don't overuse them. That being said, even if something is stereotypical, if it works, don't bash it for it's association with similar things that DIDN'T work.

[Kid Buu]

Yeah, these tropes CAN be used as criticisms but they don't always mean a bad thing.

[garnetjester]

I've found an example from the manga that makes Dragon Ball pass the test. Yay!

It's from when Goku finds Bulma in Capsule Corp to fix his dragon radar, and Bulma's mom steps on her because she turned herself tiny with a special gadget she invented. Bulma yells at her mom for stepping on her (pass) Here are some pics:



Bulma's mom: (to Goku) Hi! You are Goku, aren't you? Nice to meet you, I'm Bulma's mom

(to Bulma) What are you doing under your mother's foot?

Bulma: You've stepped on me, mom!



Bulma's mom: Who could come up with the idea of becoming tiny in here?

Bulma: It's your fault because you didn't knock before you came in.

[rereboy]

There are more examples like when Chichi asks Videl abut her family, or when Bulma talks to Lunch, etc.

[superfunk]

Then when feminists push for actual advances, like reproductive rights, that gets filtered as "women are trying to get MORE advantages than men get! Feminists are the real oppressors!"

Which swirls into combination with other anti-women notions, like women stealing yo kids and money in divorces, or false rape claims being common. Which boils together with pseudo-science and biotruths into "women can't get pregnant from REAL rape, so they're lying about it being rape so they can squeeze even more advantages out of us!" I.E. "legitimate rape".

In the last decade or so, 430 bills where passed in regards to reproductive rights and sexual health(US), 429 of these where only beneficial to women. Allot of these where after the fact of birth, so being the gender that gets pregnant had no relevance to allot of the bills passed.

I Don't know where people get that "women can't get pregnant from REAL rape" thing, a women has more of a chance to get pregnant from rape or at least from someone they have never slept with before, although if the contraceptive you use with your partner is a condom, this wouldn't be the case.