Out of Character Moments in the series

[rereboy]

It's funny how, for pages after I dismantled this "Gohan is OoC in the Cell Games" argument, the "debate" rages on between the two people who are just patting themselves on the back for agreeing with each other over it.

Maybe Dragon Ball is a little too exhausting to interpret for some of you. I'm not sure how that's humanly possible, as it is rock simple, but there you go.

I would like to point out that posts like this are ridiculous and frankly kind of offensive. You've posted your opinion, I've replied to you several times, you've never satisfactorily refuted my arguments IMO and yet this is not the first time I've seen you claiming how you've singlehandedly "disproven" or dismantled the Gohan is out of character argument and then proceeded to write an insulting comment afterwards.

[dbgtFO]

Whether or not Gohan was out of character, I think I'd like to give my thoughts on the claim that Piccolo was claiming Gohan was stronger than suppressed Cell as a Super Saiyan.
I think Piccolo was referring to Goku's repeated claims of how Gohan would be stronger than Cell, if Gohan could get angry not that he already was. It simply does not fit the narrative.

[RandomGuy96]

Literally every part of the fight before Cell powered up against SS2 Gohan.

He did, but he was factoring in all of his power, i.e. the hidden potential he can only get with his rage. Later in the Buu arc, he even tells Gohan to get angry because that will let him beat anyone, and he's not talking about SS2, because Gohan can do that without anger at this point.

What odd conclusions? Piccolo states Gohan is the strongest, Gohan takes no damage from Cell's attacks, and is clearly shown as being faster.

I don't know how I could have been any more clear.

You couldn't be any more wrong. I don't know how you could be any less informed on the show. Here's how the fight goes: Gohan and Cell begin fighting, neither are serious, so no one damages the other. Cell finds out about Gohan's hidden strength, and draws it out. Gohan becomes Super Saiyan 2, and beats up Cell. Cell discovers Gohan's power dwarfs his, and decides to self destruct. He does, and a few minutes later comes back stronger than ever. He shatters Gohan's arm. They engage in a battle of Kamehamehas, which Gohan wins when Vegeta distracts Cell.

The Buu arc has no bearing on the Cell Games

The odd conclusion that Gohan is stronger than Cell even before he goes SS2. You see no damage and you jump to the ridiculous conclusion that he is ergo stronger. You come up with a ridiculous reason to dismiss that Gohan also hits Cell and Cell's bear hug.

Trust me, you could be a lot clearer.

No. Cell attacks SS Gohan as much as he can, using the same strength he used against Goku, but he can't actually lay a finger on Gohan, no matter how hard he tries. He then says Gohan is a lot faster than he thought, and announces that he's going to use his true, full speed on Gohan (i.e. greater than what he was using before, against Goku). Now he actually manages to hit Gohan; he grabs him, punches him repeatedly, headbutts him, and blasts him into a rock. Everyone thinks this killed Gohan... but Gohan emerges with just cosmetic damage. Piccolo and Goku both state that Cell's attacks didn't drop Gohan's ki at all. Cell is shocked at first, but then compliments Gohan's durability.

Gohan then gives his stupid speech about he doesn't want to fight. Cell hears that he can make Gohan stronger via drawing out his anger, so he starts attacking Gohan again. Again, he lands several hits, but there's no indication Gohan's power dropped at all, and Gohan in fact is refusing to fight. After that, for one brief page, he actually STARTS fighting; he easily dodges Cell's next hit, kicks him in the face, knocking him to the ground and making him bleed. Cell gets up and fires multiple attacks at Gohan. Gohan dodges every single one. Cell grabs Gohan in his bearhug, and says that thing about Gohan being a dolt because he can't possibly hate fighting so much as to let himself die (i.e., Gohan could probably escape this if he wanted to). Then we get Cell and his kids torturing Gohan's friends, while Gohan takes no action, and all that other crap you mentioned.

I was explicitly talking about the SS Gohan vs suppressed Cell portion of the fight. In EVERY INSTANCE BEFORE GOHAN WENT SS2, Cell was suppressed, and no one had any idea he was stronger. And, in this suppressed state, Gohan was able to easily dodge all of his attacks without trying (until Cell powered up more, in the form of using his true speed), tank his attacks head-on with no damage (and given Cell's comments and the ease with which he dodges the later ones, it's implied he didn't even need to take them), and floor and damage Cell the only time he actually tried to fight back. From this, I see the most likely conclusion as Gohan being a lot stronger this the power Cell is using, which is supported by Piccolo saying Gohan's power is #1. None of this is "ridiculous conclusions", I'm just parroting what was shown and stated in the manga.

I'm beginning to think you don't know what I mean by "not serious". Cell was suppressed. As in, not using full power. The set percentage he was suppressed to was shown as weaker than Gohan.

[ABED]

I don't know why you keep bringing up "no one knew how much Cell was suppressing". What does that prove?

Who said that was Cell's true speed? You aren't parroting what's in the manga, there's nothing to support that being Cell's true speed. Yes, Cell underestimated Gohan's speed, but that doesn't necessitate Cell going full blast in order to catch him.

I see the most likely conclusion

Once again, erroneously concluding.

using the same strength he used against Goku

Where did it say that?

no matter how hard he tries.

He's not trying his hardest, not even remotely.

knocking him to the ground and making him bleed.

I notice you conveniently don't point out that it's also cosmetic damage, but no, you claim he damaged him. Go back and look at it again. Cell's fine.

[RandomGuy96]

I don't know why you keep bringing up "no one knew how much Cell was suppressing". What does that prove?

Who said that was Cell's true speed? You aren't parroting what's in the manga, there's nothing to support that being Cell's true speed. Yes, Cell underestimated Gohan's speed, but that doesn't necessitate Cell going full blast in order to catch him.

I see the most likely conclusion

Once again, erroneously concluding.

using the same strength he used against Goku

Where did it say that?

no matter how hard he tries.

He's not trying his hardest, not even remotely.

knocking him to the ground and making him bleed.

I notice you conveniently don't point out that it's also cosmetic damage, but no, you claim he damaged him. Go back and look at it again. Cell's fine.

It proves that, even when he's under the impression that Cell is weak enough for him to fight and probably beat as a regular SS, Gohan still does nothing.

Actually, Cell did.

What's erroneous about it? That would imply you actually know for a fact that it's wrong. Please, share this Holy Grail of hidden information with the rest of us. I'm just repeating what was shown in the manga; Gohan is plainly show to be faster than Cell, durable enough to tank his attacks, and strong enough to knock him down and make him the bleed the one page he actually does try to fight.

That's simply the most logical conclusion with the given evidence. Where was it noted that he randomly changed power for no reason to fight Gohan? Why was no one shocked if he did? Why didn't Toriyama make it explicit?

He's trying his best with that level of power (the same he used against Goku), but can't touch Gohan, because Gohan's so much more powerful. That's why, as he says, he needs to go ALL OUT in speed to tag Gohan.

I was simply pointing out that it was explicitly shown Gohan could hurt Cell if he wanted to, and also dodge/tank all of his attacks.

[ABED]

He doesn't tank his attack, tanking is not moving. He has cosmetic damage, but he doesn't tank it, and the same applies to Cell. I don't get why making Cell bleed is somehow evidence of your point but Cell doing it to Gohan is proof that Gohan's stronger.

It's not the evidence. That's what you perceive as evidence. Cell has NO clue how strong Gohan is. He's still under the impression that Goku's the better fight.

Toriyama doesn't explicitly state that Gohan got the rage boost you claim he does, nor does he say Gohan is far greater than Cell as you seem to be claiming.

Cell's trying to scare Gohan

Gohan could hurt Cell, but Cell's nowhere near his full power at this point. Dramatically it makes absolute zero sense for Gohan to be that much stronger than Cell, only to have him transform. To what end?

[Zephyr]

What actions? All it's done is ineffectively try to stop Cell and get destroyed.

Switched sides, fought alongside Piccolo some chapters prior, and yes attempted to stop Cell that final time. My point is that he wasn't evil or a villain based on his actions. Are we now pretending we know Gohan's exact criteria for deciding what makes one good or evil, deserving of life or not? Do we know if Gohan is one who believes the morality of something is determined by the motivation, or by the outcome? Does he believe in the ability for people to have changes of heart? If this had already been spelled out explicitly and set in stone, then by all means let me know; if so then this is clearly contradicting his own methodology of judging the morality of others and whether or not they're entitled to life if they turn to the side of good. If it's not, then there's no reason that the Cell Games can't be the piece of the story to set the precedence for his views on this; if it is not, then his views on this being revealed by his reaction is not contradictory, as there are no prior views to contradict.

"But why didn't he care that his friends were getting beat the fuck up?"
He did, but they weren't dying, so he didn't snap.

"But that makes no sense."
If makes perfect sense if you're willing to accept the distinction that is clearly present.

Never-realized purpose, but one it still fully intends to fulfill.

I remember him saying that he chose to no longer pursue that at the very beginning of the Cell Games, but that may be dub only.

Again, where are you getting this fear he has of his power? This comes totally out of nowhere.

It's a logical possibility. Admittedly, it's not alluded to in the series, but it's a rational conclusion nonetheless. Logically there would be a power threshold that wouldn't be able to be totally controlled and not cause fatal damage to the planet. At which point would that be though? Purely speculative. Might that point be near, or might it be several Super Saiyan stages higher? How the hell would he know? He doesn't have a scouter to measure ki numerically and determine the battle power necessary to accidentally damage the planet.

Why? In every situation where he got extra power, he only used it on bad guys.

Is there any evidence for Gohan explicitly going out of his way to make sure he wasn't causing any extra harm to friends or the planet during his other rampages? Yes, he didn't cause such damage, but is there any evidence that him not causing said damage was a conscious effort on his part? I'm not saying that he did have disregard for them before, I'm just asking if he had an explicit (not implicit) regard before. If he did, then it would indeed be out of nowhere and contradictory for him to fear accidentally hurting them based on his rampage mindset. If he did not, then him having such fear would not be contradictory, and the Cell Games would thus be justifiably setting the precedent for him having such fear.

What is there to overthink?

Trying to unleash his power that would give him an edge.

He's stronger than everyone. His friends are being killed. He has the power to save them. Yet he doesn't.

Cell Jr.s = Cell in strength right? Whether or not you believe that Gohan was more powerful than Cell at this point, it would be a stretch to assume he'd have the power to take on seven of them at once.

Gohan never once was a Super Saiyan in such a situation in the past.

So...?

New variable that makes his power frighteningly larger?

They said nothing about anger. He's stronger than Goku as is.

By how significant of a margin? Relying on shitty scanlations at the moment, so feel free to clarify if anyone has an official release on hand, but Gohan starts talking about "I know why my dad thinks I'll win", and then immediately starts talking about his temper, losing control, and getting more powerful than he imagined. It looks to be implied here that his temper is what will allow him to win.

I'm not talking about a rage boost. I'm talking about his conscious refusal to fight with all of his regular might when put on the spot, even though he explicitly wanted to do that at the beginning of the arc.

Bringing up the shitty scanlations again, he starts talking about how he doesn't want to fight, and then leads directly into "my dad wanted to me to win because I get strong and lose control when I'm pissed". This implies to me that it's his anger that he doesn't want to ignite by fighting, which is why he is unwilling to fight (read: not lacking desire to fight, desire =/= willingness). Why would he not want to get angry? He explains that he gets super powerul and loses control when he gets angry, so he either doesn't want one of those to happen, or he doesn't want both of them to happen. This is a conscious desire to not want to lose control or become unimaginably powerful. On Namek, he didn't choose to lose control, he didn't say "okay, let's make me lose control!", he was pushed to that point.

Problem: he doesn't need to. What he needs to do is his regular power to fight Cell and stop his friends from dying.

Cell and all seven(?) of his equal-in-power children?

every single character in the series has always been able to control their powers so as to condense the damage in a small area to destroy a specific target

He says he'll lose control if he gets angry.

I think the major error in communication here is that one camp interprets Gohan's past behavior as leading to implicit conclusions that are contradicted explicitly at the Cell Games, while the other interprets his lack of behavior having explicit conclusions in he past as allowing the Cell Games to finally lay down explicit conclusions. If that makes any sense. That's very poor writing on Toriyama's part, I'll agree, but I don't think his character was sufficiently explicitly laid out yet for him to necessarily be "out of" it.

[Ajay]

This omnislashing is out of control. Holy shit! Your posts are impossible to read with any coherence.

[thatdbzguy]

Let's remember that this topic is about OOC moments, guys, not a power debate. If you want to discuss Gohan's power compared to Cell's and Goku's, you should make a separate thread about it.

Anyway, getting back on-topic, I still fail to see any justifiable reasons as to why Gohan acted like he did in the Cell games.

Him not exploding with anger when his friends were getting beat down is OOC. "But they didn't die!" isn't a good argument, as there were several times in Namek where Gohan got rage boosts without the person who he was trying to defend actually dying.

Him suddenly giving more of a shit about a machine whom he has never previously talked to than his friends is forced beyond all Hell, and OOC.

Gohan has never shown fear of his powers, nor has he ever hurt a friend with them, so that reasoning is BS and comes from no where.

Gohan just standing there and not even trying to fight back a villain who has killed several innocent people is OOC. He fought back all the time against villains in the Namek arc, so why not here?

And BTW Zephyr, #16 never said that he would end his pursuit of Goku. Right as Goku went up to greet him, he blatantly threatened Goku by reminding him that killing Goku was still his mission.

[RandomGuy96]

He doesn't tank his attack, tanking is not moving. He has cosmetic damage, but he doesn't tank it, and the same applies to Cell. I don't get why making Cell bleed is somehow evidence of your point but Cell doing it to Gohan is proof that Gohan's stronger.

It's not the evidence. That's what you perceive as evidence. Cell has NO clue how strong Gohan is. He's still under the impression that Goku's the better fight.

Toriyama doesn't explicitly state that Gohan got the rage boost you claim he does, nor does he say Gohan is far greater than Cell as you seem to be claiming.

Cell's trying to scare Gohan

Gohan could hurt Cell, but Cell's nowhere near his full power at this point. Dramatically it makes absolute zero sense for Gohan to be that much stronger than Cell, only to have him transform. To what end?

What? Tanking is just taking something head on with no damage. Which is what Gohan did.

The kick is merely evidence that Gohan could have actually fought Cell if he actually, you know, bothered to fight.

Manga feats aren't evidence?

Does he say that he didn't get a rage boost? Because the official material he approved and praised said he did.

Except he does, since he outright says Goku wasn't bluffing about Gohan being stronger than him [Goku] (after Gohan tanks his attacks). You seem so sure that your conclusion is right (saying I'm "wrong" or "erroneous"). I've given actual evidence for why I think Gohan is stronger than the power Cell was using. Do you have evidence that he wasn't?

What, you mean that he lied about using his true speed? Do you have any evidence of that? At all?

This is exactly what I have been saying. Cell wasn't at full power. He was still at the power he used against Goku at the beginning of the fight. That level of power proved inadequate, so he used more power (in this case, speed) to fight Gohan. However, his raw strength didn't come out until after Gohan went SS2. HOWEVER, Gohan and the others have no way of knowing he's holding back, and if they do know, it was never made specific, so there's no reason for Gohan not to fight this Cell, who he CAN fight and probably beat. He needs SS2 to defeat FULL POWER CELL, which is not shown until later.

Switched sides, fought alongside Piccolo some chapters prior, and yes attempted to stop Cell that final time. My point is that he wasn't evil or a villain based on his actions. Are we now pretending we know Gohan's exact criteria for deciding what makes one good or evil, deserving of life or not? Do we know if Gohan is one who believes the morality of something is determined by the motivation, or by the outcome? Does he believe in the ability for people to have changes of heart? If this had already been spelled out explicitly and set in stone, then by all means let me know; if so then this is clearly contradicting his own methodology of judging the morality of others and whether or not they're entitled to life if they turn to the side of good. If it's not, then there's no reason that the Cell Games can't be the piece of the story to set the precedence for his views on this; if it is not, then his views on this being revealed by his reaction is not contradictory, as there are no prior views to contradict.

I only said it was contradictory because he cared about a murderous machine rather than his friends. Furthermore, as was pointed out, he was already under the impression that 16 was broken earlier, and didn't care.

"But why didn't he care that his friends were getting beat the fuck up?"
He did, but they weren't dying, so he didn't snap.

They were being beaten to death. Several of them had broken limbs, and Cell literally just told his henchmen to kill them.

"But that makes no sense."
If makes perfect sense if you're willing to accept the distinction that is clearly present.

So, by your logic, Gohan was out of character when he saved Piccolo from Freeza?

I remember him saying that he chose to no longer pursue that at the very beginning of the Cell Games, but that may be dub only.

IIRC, he literally says the exact opposite.

It's a logical possibility. Admittedly, it's not alluded to in the series, but it's a rational conclusion nonetheless. Logically there would be a power threshold that wouldn't be able to be totally controlled and not cause fatal damage to the planet. At which point would that be though? Purely speculative.

No, that's not logical at all, since that's never happened, it never does happen, and the possibility is never even so much as hinted at. Even raging berserkers with much greater power than Gohan can condense their power so as not to cause collateral damage.

Might that point be near, or might it be several Super Saiyan stages higher? How the hell would he know? He doesn't have a scouter to measure ki numerically and determine the battle power necessary to accidentally damage the planet.

Again, where is he getting the idea that he'll magically not be able to condense his ki anymore if he gets stronger? Why wasn't he worried when he got over a thousand times stronger against Raditz, or when he went from weaker than 2nd form Freeza to stronger than everyone else in that very arc? And why is this never hinted at anywhere in the whole series?

Is there any evidence for Gohan explicitly going out of his way to make sure he wasn't causing any extra harm to friends or the planet during his other rampages? Yes, he didn't cause such damage, but is there any evidence that him not causing said damage was a conscious effort on his part? I'm not saying that he did have disregard for them before, I'm just asking if he had an explicit (not implicit) regard before

If he subconsciously didn't do any damage, then that just makes his assumption that he'll damage the Earth even less logical.

If he did, then it would indeed be out of nowhere and contradictory for him to fear accidentally hurting them based on his rampage mindset. If he did not, then him having such fear would not be contradictory, and the Cell Games would thus be justifiably setting the precedent for him having such fear.

Again, what does he have to fear? He's never caused even a tiny bit of collateral damage. Ever. He's never expressed a worry about doing so. Ever. H's never worried that gaining a whole bunch of new power will render it hard to control. Ever.

Trying to unleash his power that would give him an edge.

He doesn't need to, though. He already has the edge, and at the very least he could stop his friends from getting brutally killed.

Cell Jr.s = Cell in strength right?

Nope. Not even close. The Cell Juniors were fighting evenly with Vegeta and Trunks, who are obviously much weaker than Goku, who is in turn much weaker than Gohan and Cell, and Cell was still fully confident he could kick Gohan's ass with his full power even after he saw him one-shot all seven Juniors.

Whether or not you believe that Gohan was more powerful than Cell at this point, it would be a stretch to assume he'd have the power to take on seven of them at once.

He couldn't take seven Cells (or even one), but he could easily take seven Juniors.

New variable that makes his power frighteningly larger?

So why wasn't he worried about the MASSIVE jump in power from his base android arc form to his Super Saiyan Cell Games form?

By how significant of a margin?

Well, for starters, Goku could barley keep up with suppressed Cell, and suppressed Cell couldn't touch Gohan (hence why he needed to power up and use his true speed). Also:

Chapter: 398 (DBZ 204), P2.7
Context: after fighting Cell awhile
Goku: “Seems he’s stronger than I imagined…If I let my guard down just a little bit, I’ll be done in instantly...”

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P12.6-7
Context: after Cell beats up on Gohan
Goku: “Don’t panic, Piccolo. Gohan’s ki hasn’t fallen one bit, has it?”
Kuririn: “Ah…It-it’s true…!”

Relying on shitty scanlations at the moment, so feel free to clarify if anyone has an official release on hand, but Gohan starts talking about "I know why my dad thinks I'll win", and then immediately starts talking about his temper, losing control, and getting more powerful than he imagined. It looks to be implied here that his temper is what will allow him to win.

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P16.2-3
Gohan: “I-I’m gradually starting to understand…What father means when he says I’m the only one who can defeat Cell…It seems that since long ago, whenever my anger flares up, I subconsciously begin fighting madly with outrageous power…So…father must be calculating on that…”

That's what he thinks, but it seems pretty clear that he's just in denial about being stronger than his father, but Cell and the others make it explicit he's stronger with or without rage. The chapter where he powers up in SS is even called "the warrior who surpasses Goku" or something like that.

Bringing up the shitty scanlations again, he starts talking about how he doesn't want to fight, and then leads directly into "my dad wanted to me to win because I get strong and lose control when I'm pissed". This implies to me that it's his anger that he doesn't want to ignite by fighting, which is why he is unwilling to fight (read: not lacking desire to fight, desire =/= willingness).

Why would attacking the bad guy normally, with his regular power- which he's been begging to do since the beginning of the arc- suddenly make him angry?

Why would he not want to get angry? He explains that he gets super powerul and loses control when he gets angry, so he either doesn't want one of those to happen, or he doesn't want both of them to happen.

From the way it's phrased, "I don't want to fight" seems to be a separate idea from "I get really strong when angry", which makes a lot more sense than assuming that Gohan would randomly damage the Earth.

This is a conscious desire to not want to lose control or become unimaginably powerful. On Namek, he didn't choose to lose control, he didn't say "okay, let's make me lose control!", he was pushed to that point.

So instead of fighting Cell, and possibly risking getting angry (?), he thinks it's a much safer bet to let Cell go unopposed?

Cell and all seven(?) of his equal-in-power children?

No, Cell and seven pieces of (to Gohan) one-shot fodder.

He says he'll lose control if he gets angry.

He's clearly going by prior examples of this, where he DID get angry, and "lose control" so to speak, but never ever caused collateral damage or hurt a friend.

[thatdbzguy]

Switched sides, fought alongside Piccolo some chapters prior, and yes attempted to stop Cell that final time. My point is that he wasn't evil or a villain based on his actions. Are we now pretending we know Gohan's exact criteria for deciding what makes one good or evil, deserving of life or not? Do we know if Gohan is one who believes the morality of something is determined by the motivation, or by the outcome? Does he believe in the ability for people to have changes of heart? If this had already been spelled out explicitly and set in stone, then by all means let me know; if so then this is clearly contradicting his own methodology of judging the morality of others and whether or not they're entitled to life if they turn to the side of good. If it's not, then there's no reason that the Cell Games can't be the piece of the story to set the precedence for his views on this; if it is not, then his views on this being revealed by his reaction is not contradictory, as there are no prior views to contradict.

Still doesn't explain why Gohan reacted more to 16's death than his friends getting beaten up. If 16 meant so much to him, why didn't he seem to care when Cell destroyed his body?

"But why didn't he care that his friends were getting beat the fuck up?"
He did, but they weren't dying, so he didn't snap.

Again, he didn't have to have the person he was protecting die in the Namek arc to get a rage boost. Why here?

It's a logical possibility. Admittedly, it's not alluded to in the series, but it's a rational conclusion nonetheless. Logically there would be a power threshold that wouldn't be able to be totally controlled and not cause fatal damage to the planet. At which point would that be though? Purely speculative.

Never happened with any of the characters before, so it's illogical to suddenly start worrying about it.

Might that point be near, or might it be several Super Saiyan stages higher? How the hell would he know? He doesn't have a scouter to measure ki numerically and determine the battle power necessary to accidentally damage the planet.

Once again, he has no reason to fear his powers.

Is there any evidence for Gohan explicitly going out of his way to make sure he wasn't causing any extra harm to friends or the planet during his other rampages? Yes, he didn't cause such damage, but is there any evidence that him not causing said damage was a conscious effort on his part? I'm not saying that he did have disregard for them before, I'm just asking if he had an explicit (not implicit) regard before

If he subconsciously didn't do any damage, then he shouldn't have worried about losing control.

If he did, then it would indeed be out of nowhere and contradictory for him to fear accidentally hurting them based on his rampage mindset. If he did not, then him having such fear would not be contradictory, and the Cell Games would thus be justifiably setting the precedent for him having such fear.

Yet again, he has nothing to be afraid of regarding his powers. He never caused collateral damage with them.

Trying to unleash his power that would give him an edge.

He already has enough power to atleast help his friends and put up a decent fight against Cell.

Cell Jr.s = Cell in strength right?

No. Vegeta and Trunks could handle the Cell Jrs., but not Cell himself.

Whether or not you believe that Gohan was more powerful than Cell at this point, it would be a stretch to assume he'd have the power to take on seven of them at once.

I'm willing to bet that he could at least slow down the Cell Jrs.noticeably.

New variable that makes his power frighteningly larger?

He wasn't afraid when he first became SSJ before the fight with Cell. Why now?

This is a conscious desire to not want to lose control or become unimaginably powerful. On Namek, he didn't choose to lose control, he didn't say "okay, let's make me lose control!", he was pushed to that point.

Yeah, because letting Cell go is totally a much safer decision, right?

[thatdbzguy]

So I just went back and read through the scene again, and it was almost painful to go through.

Gohan tells Cell he doesn't want to fight and to stop the tournament, despite knowing that Cell would never do so and despite never begging a villain to stop fighting before. Yep. Totally in-character there.

Gohan doesn't seem the least bit troubled when 16's body is destroyed, yet when Cell crushes his head, he suddenly gives a crap about him more than his friends that are getting beaten to death? 16 should not have been the trigger for Gohan's SSJ2 transformation, his friends getting tortured should have, as that would have actually been in-character.

The rationalizations of Gohan being afraid of his power or Gohan being unable to get over the shock of being stronger than his dad make no sense, as he doesn't show any hints at these things actually bothering him, nor did these things bother him in the past.

The whole scene is just so forced, contrived, and OOC that it actually single-handedly brings down the entire Cyborg arc even lower than it already was.

[ABED]

Even with its flaws, it's still a good scene. Gohan feels powerless, the beautiful song kicks in, Nozawa's terrific yell, the narration. It's an excellent scene.

[thatdbzguy]

Even with its flaws, it's still a good scene. Gohan feels powerless, the beautiful song kicks in, Nozawa's terrific yell, the narration. It's an excellent scene.

Not really. Any scene that completely breaks a character's character is far from excellent.

[Fionordequester]

Not really. Any scene that completely breaks a character's character is far from excellent.

Yes, but Gohan was also around 12 years old at the time, so he may very well have been either going through puberty and all the hormonal changes that it brings with it, or not being able to look at things from anything other than a naive child's perspective (hence him trying to talk peace with Cell). Plus, there was a whole year in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber where we weren't watching Gohan, so who knows how he might've changed while he was in there?

[ABED]

Even with its flaws, it's still a good scene. Gohan feels powerless, the beautiful song kicks in, Nozawa's terrific yell, the narration. It's an excellent scene.

Not really. Any scene that completely breaks a character's character is far from excellent.

Not true, if you have many great elements, but one that comes up a little short, the good stuff can make up for the bad stuff. And it doesn't COMPLETELY break character. Even though I don't agree with how it was written, there are at least precedents for Gohan's actions. Even 16's head being the straw the broke the camel's back - while not as dramatically powerful as if it had been someone Gohan loved, he still doesn't like seeing death and destruction of something that was by and large innocent.

there was a whole year in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber where we weren't watching Gohan, so who knows how he might've changed while he was in there?

If he did go through big personality changes, that's a TERRIBLE idea to not show it.

[thatdbzguy]

Not true, if you have many great elements, but one that comes up a little short, the good stuff can make up for the bad stuff. And it doesn't COMPLETELY break character. Even though I don't agree with how it was written, there are at least precedents for Gohan's actions. Even 16's head being the straw the broke the camel's back - while not as dramatically powerful as if it had been someone Gohan loved, he still doesn't like seeing death and destruction of something that was by and large innocent.

Except keeping a character in-character is a highly important factor that should not be screwed up, is absolutely inexcusable, and single-handedly ruins a scene. Basic Writing 101 much, Toriyama?

If he did go through big personality changes, that's a TERRIBLE idea to not show it.

The Cyborg arc in general was a terrible idea, so it's not really that surprising Toriyama didn't show it.

[ABED]

Except keeping a character in-character is a highly important factor that should not be screwed up, is absolutely inexcusable, and single-handedly ruins a scene. Basic Writing 101 much, Toriyama?

Yes, but not the only important factor in evaluating a piece of art. While I'm not a big fan of Superman the movie, the part where Superman lets out that primal scream when Lois dies is amazing, even though the rest the scene is badly written.

And you don't really have good reasons for claiming any of this, you just read something negative and latched on to it.

If there's anything you like about the series, the moment someone knocked it, you'd probably agree with them in a heartbeat.

[goku the krump dancer]

Gohan snapped when Dodoria was about to kill Dende (Someone he'd never met until that point), so I don't see how that's really any different from 16's death being the final trigger.

[ABED]

Gohan snapped when Dodoria was about to kill Dende (Someone he'd never met until that point), so I don't see how that's really any different from 16's death being the final trigger.

Well, Dende is a child, so that's easier to believe.