General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

[lord turbo]

Dragon Ball GT has everything pointing to it being non-canon and even so, many people still consider it canon/happened/it is part of the main series.

But what people consider in continuity and what actually is in continuity is two different things. Lately, the more new material that's published for Dragon Ball like BoGs and RoF the more and more out of continuity GT gets in comparison.

And yet, it comes from Ooishi Naho. It is not like if Toriyama wants he couldn't add Episode of Bardock because Naho said it is "what-if", on the contrary, she and I would be pretty happy, as Toriyama would set a little of glorious to this character who should be a little more badass than he already is.

Yeah, but Ooishi is the one written the this series and out states "Yo, its an what if story I always wanted to do, tee hee." That right there means its not in continuity with the manga's continuity, this isn't up for debate this is set in stone. Not only that Episode of Bardock was directly stated to have been produced solely to give the presence of SSJ Bardock in DB Heroes some backstory.) This doesn't mean you can't still enjoy it because it's not continuity. I enjoy the Bardock Special more so than Minus, but the Bardock Special is no longer in continuity, its a shame as I thought it was the superior story, but them be the brakes.

Its true Toriyama could do this and that, but until he does so EoB remains out of continuity. Plus, I'm a little biased so more Bardock is always good for me, whether its out of continuity or not.

Jaco he galactic patrolman.
Dragon Ball.
Yo son Goku and his friends return.
Battle of gods.
Resurrection F.

Quite simple yet for some reason it's one of the biggest debates among fans.

Ignorance, bias, hidden agendas and such are the reasons why.

Hi:

Well, in my opinion, only Toriyama's work is canon. Then, Bardock special from 1990 isn't canon, but Bardock is a canonic character because he appears in 2 panels of the manga. Is a canonic fact that Bardock fought Freezer, but Toma, Serippa, Panbuckin and Toteppo don't exist and Bardock can't see the future. That things are filler. I became a big Bardock fan when i saw that special, so is hard for me saying this, but sadly, is true.

So, only manga, BoG, and Freezer's resurrection are canon. Tarble is mentioned in BoG, but there aren't mentions to Avo/Cado or Gure, so we must wait to assure "Son Goku and his friends return", is canon or not. If Toriyama makes a new film with continuty of that story, we will consider that film canon

About Dragon Ball Minus, I think isn't canon becaue DB Minus is a spin off like Neko Majin.

Toriyama's version of Bardock from Minus is in continuity. Toei's version from Bardock Special and Ooishi's version from EoB are not in continuity though.

Completely agree with everything what you've said. It is exactly my position, I wonder why some people can't understand it, when even in-universe we have characters stating about the existence of alternate timelines and different universes.

That's not the problem, the problem is pretending all these alternate universe stories happen in the same world. Its like someone trying to make the Tenchi movies, Tenchi Universe, Tenchi Muyo, Tenchi Manga, and Tenchi in Toyko all fit and happen in the same world by holding their hands to their ears and closing their eyes and going "As long as I ignore this and that it all fits in the same world/universe/continuity." Its not different than going "Dead Zone is totally in continuity, if your completely ignore The Dragon Ball were used, Goku met Kuririn, Roshi, and Bulma for the first in five years again, and Kuririn knows Goku has a son named Gohan, that Goku commented on Piccolo's weighed clothing for the first time again, Goku and Piccolo fighting on the same side for the first time again. Goku, Piccolo and everyone seeing Gohan's hidden power for the first time again, and Goku's power pole usage, and Toriyama's comment the movies take place in an alternate universe, sure, it could totally fit in Toriyama's continuity.

[ZombieVito]

Episode of Bardock is a what if story since going by what Naho Ooishi.

So I was just absurdly happy and fired-up to be able to draw a Bardock what-if story! I want Bardock to keep playing a big role in video and card games from here on out!

If Episode of Bardock is written as a what if story then it never happen. That's the whole point of being a what if story.

Wow, I didn't know this. That settles it.

EoB is not canon.

[Mystic Tien]

Just "some things"? I would say everything from 1 to 13 movies, that's why they aren't part of the manga continuity, that's why Toriyama himself said they are indeed in an another dimension.

The point is that Toriyama basically said that events of movies happened. In different dimension, but happened.

[Dyno]

In different dimension, but happened.

That's pretty much enough, isn't?

[Hellspawn28]

I think Dragon Ball is the only Shonen series that I see people have big debates about fillers and movies being apart of the series. I never see Naruto or Bleach fans debate if fillers and older movies should be apart of the manga or not. I understand that Naruto and Bleach fillers are shit, but Dragon Ball's fillers are hardly any better in my opinion.

[Dyno]

It is also curious to note One Piece wiki classifies even movies as "fillers" (events that didn't happen in the manga/weren't acknowledge by the author until the present moment).

[One_Instance]

I think Dragon Ball is the only Shonen series that I see people have big debates about fillers and movies being apart of the series. I never see Naruto or Bleach fans debate if fillers and older movies should be apart of the manga or not. I understand that Naruto and Bleach fillers are shit, but Dragon Ball's fillers are hardly any better in my opinion.

It might just be that people watched the movies as kids, didn't know what canon was, and just got used to considering the movies as part of the universe, as far the western fan base goes.

[sintzu]

Anybody can make their own Dragon Ball canon.

Fans of any franchise can make up their own canon but they need to keep in mind that moving foreword,the writers of said franchise will only take certain parts into consideration when they decide to come up with new stories.

So you can say Broly is in you're canon but if Toriyama introduces a different legendary Ssj in Super,don't get upset and say he's contradicting it cause he isn't,he's taking into account the stories that were in the manga,2008 ova&the last 2 movies which don't have Broly in them.

I think Dragon Ball is the only Shonen series that I see people have big debates about movies being apart of the series.

I think it's because the Z movies are more memorable compared to other Shonen movies.

[Hellspawn28]

I think Dragon Ball is the only Shonen series that I see people have big debates about fillers and movies being apart of the series. I never see Naruto or Bleach fans debate if fillers and older movies should be apart of the manga or not. I understand that Naruto and Bleach fillers are shit, but Dragon Ball's fillers are hardly any better in my opinion.

It might just be that people watched the movies as kids, didn't know what canon was, and just got used to considering the movies as part of the universe, as far the western fan base goes.

I think it's because the Z movies are more memorable compared to other Shonen movies.

These two may be true, but I don't think DB should get a free pass because of that. I mean the older Naruto and Bleach fillers and films are not much different from DBZ filler and Movies 1-13 from what I can remember. They all had their fair share of not fitting into the timelines of their shows. I also Naruto and Bleach fans say that anime filler is not canon to the manga since it does not happen in the anime. So won't the same rules applied to other Shonen series like Dragon Ball?

[sintzu]

These two may be true, but I don't think DB should get a free pass because of that.

I mean the older Naruto and Bleach films are not much different from DBZ Movies 1-13 from what I can remember.

I also Naruto and Bleach fans say that anime filler is not canon to the manga since it does not happen in the anime. So won't the same rules applied to other Shonen series like Dragon Ball?

It doesn't,Toriyama is only following the stories that he wrote which is how it should be cause there's no reason for him to limit what he can do due to fans liking or disliking something he had noting to do with.

Z's movies introduced more memorable characters such as Cooler&Gogeta.

They do apply weather the fan base accepts it or not.

I'm not saying you can't like something or have you're own canon based on what you like but keep in mind that moving foreword the only stories that Toriyama is taking into account while writing is the stories he wrote which means that everything else doesn't count so if he reintroduces a certain part of the franchise like what he did with Bardock don't go around saying it's a big contradiction to what was previously established cause in Toriyama's work Bardock was never established neither was Freeza's brother,the legendary ssj,ssj4,ect.

[coola]

- Everything created by Toriyama is part of manga canon ( Manga, last two movies, Super)
- Dragon Ball, Z/Kai, DBZ Movie 1, part of Movie 3 (Haiya Dragon character) Bardock/Trunks special, GT are part of anime canon
- Movies before BoG (Except DBZ Movie 1) have their own canons, serving mostly as what-if (You can also count GT there, since it use Movie villains )

Those are my personal canons I view them as seperate beings, with is why i pray, that situation with Super will be clear, if it is sequel to anime canon, it means no Jaco, Beerus, Whis and Golden Freeza, if it's manga canon, it won't include Toei version of Hell.

[Absolute Ice]

Well, considering Toei has added Gregory in Dragon Ball Super, I won't be surprised if they add their version of Hell as well.

[Hellspawn28]

Anyone else think Gregory is a fan favorite from Toriyama now? He was in the 2008 Jump Special which was based on a story idea from Toriyama. He did made Bardock a character in the manga because he like the TV special.

[Absolute Ice]

It is curious to note he also appeared in the manga version for some reason. Maybe Ooishi Naho knew all along he would be incorporated?

[Noah]

Do you guys are considering DBS canon?

[Hellspawn28]

What thing I never get about the fillers of Hell in Dragon Ball is that why did Freeza return back to his 4th form after death despite being cyborg when he was killed. However Dr. Gero was still a cyborg after death in Hell and didn't return back to being human when he went to Hell. Could this be another major plot hole in the series or what? That's why I like the scenes of Hell in ROF over the filler scenes of Hell in the DBZ anime since it made more sense if you ask me.

[Kamiccolo9]

What thing I never get about the fillers of Hell in Dragon Ball is that why did Freeza return back to his 4th form after death despite being cyborg when he was killed. However Dr. Gero was still a cyborg after death in Hell and didn't return back to being human when he went to Hell. Could this be another major plot hole in the series or what? That's why I like the scenes of Hell in ROF over the filler scenes of Hell in the DBZ anime since it made more sense if you ask me.

The Freeza in Hell in RF wasn't Freeza's body. It was his soul in the form of his body or something. When we see his actual body, it's in pieces, while the thing in Hell is whole.

[Lord Beerus]

Do you guys are considering DBS canon?

I consider Dragon Ball Super as just another Dragon Ball story. There was never really a canon in Dragon Ball to begin with. But if you want, you can consider the manga Toriyama wrote as the canon of Dragon Ball.

[IDreamtIWasABee]

As with religion, "canon" is a flamboyant attempt to force consensus where it's impossible. Luckily, no DBZ community has an Inquisition that can root out all audio samples of Goku's "girly" voice, nor a Cheka that can make us pretend TFS isn't a "real" dub with serious influence.

It's far more interesting to look at what takes root in the general fanbase.

As for filler, it only became important in the Cell saga, and it only became vital in the Boo arc. But that's just my opinion.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Anyone else think Gregory is a fan favorite from Toriyama now? He was in the 2008 Jump Special which was based on a story idea from Toriyama. He did made Bardock a character in the manga because he like the TV special.

The is no indication that Toriyama had anything to do with Gregory's inclusion. Kuririn is portrayed in Super as he was in the anime, and Toriyama implied that he isn't involved with Super outside of the U6 arc. As for the JSAT Special, he wasn't heavily involved with either the anime or the manga, so there is no indication that Toriyama had anything to do with his inclusion there either. He was, however, heavily involved with BoG, and Gregory was nowhere to be seen.